Topic: Is this E3 make or break for the GC?

[The Omen]

Not in terms of being a successful console, which i believe it is already.  I'm thinking more in terms of momentum going into the next generation.  I realize there will be one more E3 prior to the unveiling of N5, but I think this E3 is the important one.  If Nintendo tank this year, like we know they did last year, they will be burried in many observers minds.  If they blow away everyone, then have WW2,RE4 another FF game, Metroid prime 2 and possibly Mario all in the next year to year and a half, they will have gained a lot of mojo going into E3 and the next system.  Its exactly the type of hype they need.(OMG..hype and nintendo ..together?)  Now, if they can just release the N5 before the other 2 consoles, launch with SuperSmashBros online, Too Human and RE5, theres a formula for increasing market share , big time.  So, I hope these rumors of whats going down at E3 are true.  And I really am getting hyped up for a big show this year.    

[Bill Aurion]

I don't think it's really a "make or break" situation for Ninty, considering E3 has never been...But having such a nice lineup planned can only help them, so I'm not complaining...

[vudu]

most people don't have a clue what goes on at e3.  the only people who are going to be interested in it are those who are really into videogames (like those of us who spend our free time reading videogames websites and posting on their forums) and therefore have already formed their opinions regarding each of the consoles.

and i think it's generally accepted that last year's e3 was pretty mediocre overall, not just for nintendo.  the biggest announcments were some specs on a sheet of paper for the psp and a video (not even a playable demo) for doom 3.

[Jale]

I think that there is no chance of breaking the GC. It is more a matter of "Make or don't". They are either going to get really popular all of a sudden, or just reamin as they are now.

[cubist]

I've been going to E3 for the past four/five years since it's been held at the LA Convention Center.  I can tell you that the booth that's always been heavily filled with 'show attendees' is Nintendo's booth.  It might have something to do with Nintendo having a very large section (or it may just be the same old Tecmo girls near the Nintendo booth) every year.  I don't think it has anything to do with the mindless 'superhot' chicks Nintendo's got dressed up in those blue stewardess outfits, but a lot to do with the line up.  It is true that Nintendo's line-up last year wasn't stellar, but merely showcased third party efforts.  A lot of people made the assessment that Nintendo was repairing third party relations.  I think it's that Nintendo's quality is respected so much by both media and industry that their area is always the most filled.  

In response to the topic here -- Is this E3 going to make or break the GameCube?  It is going to be heavily reliant on how the media and the industry interprets Nintendo's lineup.  This show is for the media and the industry.  It's all based on who your getting your news from and what their biases are.  If people don't see it for themselves, they're going to rely on the hands-on impressions of one representative of a website or magazine.  Truthfully, I don't expect any Nintendo love this year from the press at all.  I expect us "to be at war with Spain" via 'Citizen Kane'-type press releases.    

I'll definitely be giving impressions in the forums during showtime.  Last year, I was very impressed with 'Prince of Persia' and it turned out to win a bunch of awards.  I was right about 'Metroid Prime' the year before too.  I think I'm on a roll here.  Let's see if I'm right again this year shall we.  It'd probably be nice to finally meet PGC.  I think one of them looks like Peter Jackson.  I'll be looking for you Rick Powers.  If I call you Peter Jackson, you'll know it's me.

 

[Ian Sane]

"I was right about 'Metroid Prime' the year before too."

Uh yeah.  So was EVERYONE.  MP wasn't exactly a sleeper hit at E3.

E3 itself doesn't have an effect on a console's success; the games shown at E3 do.  If a company's E3 showing is crap odds are their lineup for the next year will be crap.  E3 2002 was a better showing for Nintendo than 2003 and sure enough the games released between May 2002 and May 2003 were MUCH better than anything released since E3 2003.

However at this point it's too late for the Cube.  It's not going to suddenly get really popular.  It's a "failure" in the eyes of gamers just like the N64 and as a result Nintendo will face the same hurdles with the N5 that they did with the Cube (or perhaps worse since they have no hardware limitation excuse this time and they've now screwed up TWICE).

The make-or-break E3 for the Cube was E3 2001 when the Cube was shown in playable form for the first time.  That showing indicated what was going to happen at launch and thus was very important.  The Cube had to make a big splash from the get go in order to make up for the N64.  It didn't.  E3 showed that there was no Mario launch title or even a major launch title period, and very few third party exclusives.  In my opinion the Cube's crappy launch is what sunk it.  But E3 didn't help since because of the poor showing the media already had a negative opinion of the Cube and thus spread negative "anti-hype" prior to launch.

The N5's debut E3 showing has to be utterly AMAZING or it won't recover from the loser stigma the Nintendo has created for their consoles.  If the E3 showing is lame then the launch lineup will be lame which will kill the console right off the bat.

[cubist]

You're right about Metroid Prime not being a sleeper hit, but I was simply stating the fact that I got to view everything at E3 and it was hands-down the game of the show for me.  

Is it just me or do people have a knack for shooting down posts in these forums?  Ian Sane, does the word 'failure' mean larger profit vs. larger installed base?  I agree that the line-up of games at E3 usually give a good forecast on sales for the year; however, I think it is still based on journalistic interpretation and biased 'hype'.  There really hasn't been a non-biased coverage of the show.  

[The Omen]

Ian, i agree that Nintendo is where they are, and this E3 won't chnage that for the GC.  What i'm alluding to is, I believe they need this E3 and the N5 E3 to gain the momentum.  One strong blow your socks off E3 won't be enough as long as their name is Nintendo.  IMO, it starts this year.  If they kick ass this year, then blow people away next, I think the public may get the hype wagon going.  And, as MS has shown, thats what really matters in this day and age.

[Rich]

Let me ask you this. How can Nintendo not have an awesome E3 this year. Last year was dismal because there werent very many exciting first-party games, but this year is so much different. We all know a short list of what will be shown and I'm already excited. Metriod Prime2, Wind Waker2, Mario Tennis, Animal crossing2, Paper Mario, Geist, and possibly game zero, and whatever square-enix is working on. On top of all that we have the DS to look forward to. There is also the rumor that Nintendo will reveal online plans as well(click Herefor the thread regarding the online plans)

This E3 will be a great E3 for Nintendo but if its enouph to beat Sony and Microsoft I don't know. Lets not forget that Microsoft has Halo2 and fable and Sony has GTA:San Andreas and FF12 and the PSP. So it seems that all sides will have a great E3 I just hope Nintendo has the best. I hope the DS rocks the crap out of the PSP.  

[Ian Sane]

"Ian Sane, does the word 'failure' mean larger profit vs. larger installed base?"

It means neither.  The Cube is a "failure" in the eyes of many because it failed to make any ground against Sony and many of the problems that were present with the N64 are still present.  It's more of an image thing.

"I believe they need this E3 and the N5 E3 to gain the momentum. One strong blow your socks off E3 won't be enough as long as their name is Nintendo. IMO, it starts this year. If they kick ass this year, then blow people away next, I think the public may get the hype wagon going."

That's a good point.  I wouldn't say they absolutely have to blow everyone away this year but it would really help.  Ending the Cube on a high note from a quality perspective would be great.  What would it take for Nintendo to blow everyone away this year?  I mean we're all excited about a new Metroid and Zelda but is that going to be enough to get non-fans interested?  I think people who ignore Nintendo aren't excited by the established Nintendo franchises.  They could release the best Zelda game ever and the media would just say "another Zelda? Ho hum."  I think Nintendo needs something BIG that's completely unique and just blows the socks off of everyone.

[Rich]

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I mean we're all excited about a new Metroid and Zelda but is that going to be enough to get non-fans interested?  I think people who ignore Nintendo aren't excited by the established Nintendo franchises.  They could release the best Zelda game ever and the media would just say "another Zelda? Ho hum."  I think Nintendo needs something BIG that's completely unique and just blows the socks off of everyone.

Yeah we are excited by a new Zelda and  new Metriod. We are excited for things that are unique because we like to try new things and experiment a little bit. But the general public is not so. I have a friend who refused to play Viewtiful joe because it was "to weird", another who wouldn't play zelda because of its gaphics. personaly I like trying new things but from what I've seen the public doesn't like unique, the general public likes bloody FPS and GTA like clones. The general public is stupid and blind, it doesn't notice good deal/product if they were hit on the head.

[The Omen]

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The general public is stupid and blind, it doesn't notice good deal/product if they were hit on the head.

How true, although a bit harsh.  Its whats known as 'the lowest common denominator' theory, and every industry applies that theory to their products.  Its really rampant in movies as well.  

IanSane:I think RE4 will be the game to blow people away.  Now, they need another exclusive non-1st party game to do likewise.  Maybe even a 2nd party like SKs "Too Human" or how about Zoonami's secret project?  Then theres N-space with Geist.  Lets not forget Square/Enix, as they supposedly have something up their sleeves.  Theres a lot of potential there for a real kick-ass E3.

[Rich]

Yeah if Square-Enix announced a traditional Final Fantasy game it would defintely make this years E3 one of the more memorable. I don't know about you guys but I am getting really pumped for this years E3. All I own is a GameCube but I think there are a lot of exciting games for all the consoles. Since I own a GameCube I think that GameCube will have the best show, especially if the FF rumors are true. FF+Metriod Prime2+Wind Waker2+ Resident Evil=absolute domination of the show by Nintendo.  

[ThePerm]

one of the things people forget about the last generation is despite the fact that playstation seemingly came out on top..it wasn't ahead by much. Nintendo and Sony were back in forth on market share...however Sony didntreally grab most the market share till the year 2000. On september 9th 1999..sony had a big conference to talk about ps2..this was the same tiem dreamcast was launched...Sony killed Sega's hype. On the sane day Nintendo announced that it had the majority market share..this didnt last long however. Nintendo unlike Sony dropped their system like a bad habit for almost a year. Titles trickled out at a snails pace..and everyone pretty much gave up on n64 for gamecube which was coming out in 2001. Sony on the other hand made ps2 backwards compatable and even now there is still games coming out for psx. Thier not good but Sony transitioned smoothly from one generation to the other. Unlike Nintendo who pretty much had to start over from scratch in this generation..at the same time they had to fight off microsoft for devlopers and still havn't gotten the american dev support they could use. Sony's biggest selling points was backwards compability and developer support and the fact that when ps2 launched the ps brand was alot more favored then the n64 brand.

If Nintendo could launch backward compatable then there will be Resident Evil, Final Fantasy, Metal Gear, Zelda, Mario, etc already on the system. Also, when the next system comes out whenever it does. The new games will push the older games out of importance and then their prices will go down significantly. Our favorite gcn games..i mean good ones will be at bargain prices like 9.99(19.99 conservatively)....people will see all these games that they MISSED and prolly pick up an n5 with some of those and some new games as wel....that is if thenext system is backwards compaable. It works for Gameboy, it works for Playstation..it works.

Also, i'd Note I think there are few things that are gonna give Ninty its leading edge back.
1 n5 will have better 3rd party support at the beginning of the generation then gamecube had
and way better then n64 had.
2 the graphics between all the systems will be very relative. It will be hard to tell the difference between them. I don't think any of the consoles will reallt have that graphical edge.
3 Nintendo will have its Nintendo exclusives.
4 Hopefully the Next system will be backward compatable...boosting sells of old games and selling systems with its variety.
5 Nintendo claims they will launch around the same time Sony does so Sony doesnt have a year lead time on Nintendo. Opertunistically this will allow Nintendo to grab some of the market share from Sony...they will perhaps have equal or greater market share.
6 Once again the graphics will be better, this could reinvigarate games like mario and zelda in the eyes of those that fickled away from them this generation because they weren't what some had hoped for(i got whati want....however mario needs the long jump back)

there is more...i could go into it later

[Ian Sane]

"1 n5 will have better 3rd party support at the beginning of the generation then gamecube had
and way better then n64 had."

It will?  A fair bit of third parties like Midway and Acclaim that were strong Nintendo supporters with the N64 and early Cube have dropped support.  How do you know by 2006 that the N5 will have any stronger support than the Cube initially did?  It's like a rule that if a company loses money they drop Cube support.

"6 Once again the graphics will be better, this could reinvigarate games like mario and zelda in the eyes of those that fickled away from them this generation because they weren't what some had hoped for"

What difference will graphic capabilities make?  Nitnendo CHOSE to make Super Mario Sunshine and Wind Waker look the way they did.  From a hardware perspective they could have easily looked better (though "better" in regards to Wind Waker is purely opinion).  The N5 could have the best graphics in the world but it wouldn't help Mario's appearance if Nintendo didn't choose to actually make use of those capabilities.

I do however agree with you that the transition from Cube to N5 will be much smoother than that of N64 to Cube.  The N64 to Cube transition was the sh!ts.  Virtually no new games from Conker in March to the Cube launch in November followed by six months of Cube release drought.  They couldn't have planned a worse way to start a new generation.  That should not be the case with the N5.  With backwards compatibility any post-launch droughts could always be filled with easier-to-make Cube games.

[mouse_clicker]

In my opinion the Cube has been a resounding success, if only because it's provided me with some of the best videogames I've ever played in my life. And really, that's all that matters to me. I fail to see why anyone concerns themselves with anything more.

[Rich]

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Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
In my opinion the Cube has been a resounding success, if only because it's provided me with some of the best videogames I've ever played in my life. And really, that's all that matters to me. I fail to see why anyone concerns themselves with anything more.

Yeah but Mouse, how do you know these great games will keep coming? thats what we are worried about. If Nintendo doesn't start off with the right foot and run with success then they will have a hard time winning back the public which will give Nintendo less money. If less money comes then that means less great games until there arent any by Nintendo at all. Your smart enouph to know this.

[mouse_clicker]

My point is, Rich, if Nintendo is gone tomorrow, I'll still be more than satisfied with what they've given me. I'll be immensely pissed off that they're gone, but I won't feel unfulfilled by any means, and that's all that really matters- anything else is icing on the cake. I don't concern myself too much with sales or business strategies- I know Nintendo's making a profit, and I know WHY they're making a profit, and I do recognize their mistakes, but that's all irrelevant compared to the games themselves.  

[The Omen]

I guess i'm one of those unfortunate fools who feel that whatever I like, and deem the best, should be embraced by the masses(elitist?).  Being obsessively competitive in everything in life makes me want to win at all costs, and makes me want those mediums/companies I support to do likewise.  It's actually a painful way to live, in all honesty.  

[Ian Sane]

"I guess i'm one of those unfortunate fools who feel that whatever I like, and deem the best, should be embraced by the masses(elitist?)."

That's not necessarily elitist.  It actually makes a fair bit of sense.  If everyone likes the types of games you do then it will result in more games made in the style you enjoy.  This makes the most sense if you really like 2D games or arcade style shooters.  Since those types of games are in risk of dying out if everyone else liked them they would survive forever.

My favourite console of all time is the SNES and one of the reasons that it has so many games I love is because at the time the types of games I loved were incredibly popular and thus were made frequently.  Now I'm not so happy because a lot of the types of games that are popular I don't care for thus resulting in less games I'm interested in.  Therefore Nintendo's market share and popularity matters to me because if they become number one again it means more games I like, less crap.

[mouse_clicker]

More is the key word there. I'm personally satisfied with what I'm getting- I always want more, but I don't need more. Maybe you're different.

[ThePerm]

my point is that about 3rd party support is i beleive it will simply be better next generation...not as good as it was maybe 3 months ago for the cube..but i think it will start off with better third party support that cube had in the beginning..which was the same lack of third party n64 had in the end. Nintendo has really improved on this front i beleive..i beleive by next generation they will have a steady flow of good third party games....about as steady as it is now. I don't think theres going to be a significant decline. I'm fairly optimistic. Lol and midway and acclaim don't count..they suck!!!..i wouldnt consider midway or acclaim strong supporters either..most their shit was made on multiple systems and cube got the bad ports...

well also like i said the graphics will be better..one of the complaints about mario was the graphics(which i didnt complain about..my gosh the water was beautiful)..in screenshots it didnt appear its best and you could say it didnt have the best jaw dropping looks it could have had. My other point is a shitty looking n5 game is gonna look like a really good gcn game....and thats pretty good if you ask me.  Maybe that will be enough to make gamers go ooh and ah again.

Basically, im not basing all my judgement on what i will think..im basing my judgement on what others will think.  

[Rich]

Hey Perm, don't underestimate Midway. I do think that everything they have released on GC so far has been crap, but I believe they recently had a change in managment and Midway will now be looking at less, but better games. And it seems that they will live up to that, for the first time this generation there is a Midway game that I think looks decent, pys-ops. It doesn't look bad.

Mouse: Its not that I am unfulfilled by what Nintendo has given me thus far, but I am interested in preserving the developer of games that I enjoy. That means that I do care about Nintendo. Unlike you if Nintendo is gonna tomarrow I will care because Nintendo gives me the best games around and I want to keep it that way.

[mouse_clicker]

I didn't say I wouldn't care, Rich- read my post again. I said I wouldn't be unsatisfied. I'd be pissed as hell if Nintendo was gone tomorrow, but I wouldn't feel like they hadn't fulfilled their duty. From here on out everything Nintendo gives me for the Gamecube is icing on the cake becase I'm already incredibly happy with what they have given me.  

[ThePerm]

i was big on midway in the n64 days..i loved mk4...however...they completely dropped gcn support..so do i have love for them anymore...its like theyve dissed me..they were gettign better..but they just arent doing enough to keep me as a fan.