Author Topic: Convenience VS. Piracy  (Read 5148 times)

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Offline nitsu niflheim

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Convenience VS. Piracy
« on: March 05, 2004, 05:05:37 AM »
Note: This is not about where to get ROMS, not about how to play ROMS, nor about Emulators, this is my opinion on why I think it should be okay to play some ROMS

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Convenience VS. Piracy


The videogame business is a billion dollar industry, as large as the movie industry, if not larger, and just as the movie studios are having to deal with the swelling insurgence of piracy robbing them of profits, so does the videogame industry.  This piece is not about the philosophical importance of piracy as how it is costing companies million (billions?) of dollars each year, but the idea behind it instead.  Videogame companies, Nintendo, Sega, and many more claim that copying their games cost them money, and that I will agree with, but only to an extent.  I believe Nintendo when they say that piracy is bad, and it cost them money, but I think they and many other companies take it too far.  If I were to download a ROM of Metroid Zero Mission for the GBA then I would be denying Nintendo the money they deserve for me playing that game, because the game is readily available in practically any store that sells Game Boy Advance games.  But I do not believe, nor do I accept the argument that Nintendo is losing money if I were to download a ROM of Metroid 2, which was made for the original Game Boy.  I can not just walk into any store that sells videogames and find this game.  I am only using Metroid 2 as an example, I actually own the cartridge so downloading it in a mute point here.  But how is Nintendo, or any other game manufacturer losing money if they no longer produce or are selling the game.  You can say that if infringes on their copyright, and well that would be true, but the major point they are trying to make and are preaching is it is costing them money.  If Nintendo (I will use Nintendo from now on not as a single entity, but only to represent the entire videogame industry) wants me to believe that downloading Metroid 2 is costing them money, then re-release the game so that it is available in stores.  

Then comes the other part, games that were never translated or never released outside of any one particular territory.  Take Dragon Quest 5 and 6 for example.  Neither game was translated for released outside of Japan, but Dragon Quest 4 was, and Dragon Quest 7.  You have two games in a franchise that are part of a trilogy that started with Dragon Quest 4 (Dragon Warrior 4) which was translated and released on the NES, but the second and final game in the trilogy were not.  The only way to play these games is to either be lucky enough to find the actual cartridge and play the game knowing the Japanese language, or find a ROM of the games and a translation patch and enjoy them.  Both games are for the SNES and pretty much not going to be released outside of Japan.  You can argue that Dragon Quest 5 should still be protected because it is being remade for the PS2, I don't believe that unless the original version, the SNES version is included as a whole playable game with the remake, otherwise they are two completely different games.  Then you have Terranigma, the third game in the series that started with Soul Blazer, then Illusion of Gaia.  Both Soul Blazer and Illusion of Gaia were released in North America, but he third game Terranigma was never released here, it was released in the PAL territories instead.  So the only way I could play the game is to find an import copy and modify it to play in my SNES, or I can download the ROM of an old game that is no longer available for purchase. By the way the games listed just above are all Enix games.

As far as I am concerned, unless Nintendo is going to make their games readily accessible for purchase, they then can't say they are losing money when people download ROMS of their older games because if they are not making them and they are not in stores, then how are they making money off them in the first place?  Well, how about the name brand?  That could be a good argument, but still comes down to the fact that the games in question are not available and Nintendo is not willing to make the older games available.  I personally believe that downloading a ROM of Metroid is wrong because the original NES game is available in both Metroid Prime and Metroid Zero Mission, but Metroid 2 is fair game because as of right now I know of now way to play the game other than to spend time trying to find the game.

I just can not accept the argument that I am costing the industry money if I were to go and download a ROM of a game that is either no longer available to immediate purchase, like just about any GBA and GCN game, or was never localized for non-Japanese reading game players.  I feel that if Nintendo was to make their claims to piracy stronger, then release and make obtainable their catalogue of games, then by putting them out their for sale, they can fairly say that downloading a ROM of any of those games is a crime because you can just go down to the local Wal*Mart and purchase the game you want.  I like the idea Nintendo is doing with their Famicom Mini series, but also don't like the idea because they are selling them separate when they could put several on one cartridge, or many many more on a GCN disc, but at least they are making them available again, and if made available in North America I may be able to play some of those NES games I missed out on because I was too young to have the money to buy any game I wanted.

There are people out there that download ROMS of games and think of it as renting, and will then go and buy the actual game if they like it.  But that is not the same, a game that is available for rent has been purchased, whereas downloading is unadorned stealing.  While the thinking behind the download/check/then buy is a feel good idea, it still doesn't solve anything because I think the number of people who actual then go and buy the game are in the minority.  I don't download GBA games because they are inexpensive (for me) and because I can find just about any GBA I would want just by checking the online stores I doing the majority of my purchases from.

In closing I want to say I don't think it is right to download ROMS, but if that is the only means* in which one can play the game then I see no real evil in that because I believe Nintendo lost all rights to complain they are losing money when they sit on the game and refuse to make it available to the masses that want to play the game, and then say no you can't download a ROM because it is taking money away from them.

*This only stands for games that are discontinued and no longer available, specifically, NES, SNES, Game Boy and possibly some Game Boy Color games.  GBA games are off limits, even if they are not available because they are newer and will possibly be easier to track down a copy than it would be to find a NES or SNES game.

Also, what anybody else does is none of my business and I don't think any different of you because of my opinion.  As far as I am concerned once you are my friend, you are my friend and if you do something that I don't agree with opinion-wise, it doesn't mean we aren't friends anymore.  And if I have talked with you on MSN then I consider you a friend.  I just thought I would add that so anybody wouldn't think I can't like them because of something they may do. ^_^


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Offline Bill Aurion

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RE: Convenience VS. Piracy
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2004, 06:07:44 AM »
I feel the same way when it comes to games that weren't released in your territory...(Terranigma! =( )

But if they were, that's a big no-no...
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Convenience VS. Piracy
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2004, 07:06:54 AM »
Yeah I basically feel the same way.  It's impossible to get a copy of Metroid II where the money actually goes to Nintendo since the only legal way to purchase the game is used and Nintendo doesn't make any money from used game sales.  So really downloading it isn't from a moral perspective that different.  One method is legal, one isn't but Nintendo makes no money from either.  Still if you can find it used I think you should buy it because that's a potential sale for the used game store that you are denying them if you go with the ROM.

ROMs are supposedly not illegal if you own the game itself.  I own a copy of Earthbound that has a dead battery and thus if I play it on an emulator with save capabilities I don't think I'm doing anything illegal.  One thing that would be technically illegal but I would consider acceptable is having a ROM of one version of a game while owning a different version of the game.  For example say you owned the GBA port of A Link to the Past and you wanted to try out the SNES version as well.  I morally have no objection to downloading the SNES ROM.  Sure you don't own the SNES game but you've paid Nintendo for a copy of A Link to the Past so why should you have to pay twice.  I don't even have a problem if you pirated the Xbox and PS2 versions of Soul Calibur II to try out the exclusive characters if you already bought the Cube version.  In my opinion if you buy the game brand new once any re-releases are fair game unless it's a complete remake like The Twin Snakes.

Offline Pale

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RE: Convenience VS. Piracy
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2004, 11:46:21 AM »
The major flaw to your discussion, or at least what an exec of the game company would say is....  By downloading Metroid 2, you are playing a game for free that if it weren't available there is a good chance you would have gone out an purchased a *different* game to play instead.

But what I really feel about the situation is this.  Everything is marketing, and you are right, people like you and I, who already spend a fortune on nintendo/gaming products don't bother nintendo when we import a system, or play classic nes games on our computer.  The problem is, there are people out there who use that as an alternative to spending money.  Also, nintendo may not want you playing metroid 2, because there could be an enhanced port of it (a la zm) right around the corner.  They want total control, and although that seems kind of big brotherish and evil, you can't really blame them.
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Convenience VS. Piracy
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2004, 01:17:14 PM »
"By downloading Metroid 2, you are playing a game for free that if it weren't available there is a good chance you would have gone out an purchased a *different* game to play instead."

My response to that would be "f*ck that I want to play Metroid II".  The attitude that all games are equal is why third parties drop Cube support when their sh!tty game doesn't sell as well as Zelda.

Offline Pale

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RE: Convenience VS. Piracy
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2004, 02:22:05 PM »
You may say that....but isn't it true that if you couldn't get metroid 2 you would be using your time on another game? be it as good, or not...
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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RE: Convenience VS. Piracy
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2004, 03:14:56 PM »
ROMs are like pr0n viewed by minors.
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Convenience VS. Piracy
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2004, 04:57:35 PM »
" You may say that....but isn't it true that if you couldn't get metroid 2 you would be using your time on another game?"

Not necessarily.  Gaming isn't my only interest.  Maybe if I couldn't play Metroid II I would watch a movie or ride my bike or read a book or whatever.  Again though there's that attitude that I should just buy something else as if any game will do.  Too many game companies have this attitude that just because a game exists that it's like my duty or something to buy the f*cking thing.  Although it isn't the case, if the only titles that interested me were games out of print I wouldn't buy any new games and I don't think I should be expected to.

Offline Pale

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RE: Convenience VS. Piracy
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2004, 05:09:32 PM »
The point i was trying to make goes back to something that developers have been bringing up for a while.  With such a saturated market, not only are they competing for people who would be interested in playing their game, they then have to take those people and sell to the ones who have enough time to play it.  I'm not trying to argue against your point, just trying to give my opinion as to what the execs may be thinking.  Really what it all comes down to is that they don't want to create any sort of gray area that could cause emulators to gain even more popularity.  Thats why the refuse to yield in any way to the rom players out there.
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Convenience VS. Piracy
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2004, 07:38:54 PM »
Nitsuj: That's the mentality that feeds Abandonware. Sites like Link Removed: This thread is pushing it, and you have the nerve to link a ROM site have a long list of games that are no longer available in stores (or were even released as freeware by their developers). If the games become available again they remove the download and link to the vendor instead. So they might even help you with tracking down copies of rare games. Of course they also remove all games whose owner decided they shouldn't be available for download.  

Offline Uncle Rich AiAi

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RE:Convenience VS. Piracy
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2004, 10:13:32 PM »
I agree with nitsujdark, and feel the same way.  But PaleZer0 does make a very good point.

Living in a country (lets not go thru this again ) where many RPGs were not released during the 8bit and 16bits days, I would like to play Chrono Trigger, FF4 & FF6 someday.  Is it my fault they didn't get released in my region?  No.  So why should I  try to hunt down a NSTC SNES (plus I'll need to get a step-down transformer) or a NSTC-to-PAL signal converter (or whatever they are called).  I haven't downloaded the ROMs yet, if you are wondering.

Offline Ocarina Blue

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RE: Convenience VS. Piracy
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2004, 12:59:34 AM »
Well, I wouldn't hesitate to downlaod a game such as Chrono Trigger, which wasn't released here. Nintendo could make money by releasing a ton of old games on a single GBA cart/GC disc, but they don't. Or they don't make them available enough (for example, the Zelda collection disc.)

The huge demand for ROMS (and the huge sucess of the GBA) has proven that there is still demand for 8-16 Bit 2D games. Nintendo could easily play this to their advantage: release one or two discs full on NES/SNES classics, or even just make them available for download and release the game's source. Both of these situations would gain them either money or favour. Favour within the open source community (especially for a company concerned with programming like Nintendo) is hugely helpful. But if Nintendo honestly believes that most people will sooner buy a poorly ported $50 NES game that download it for free, they're kidding themselves.
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Convenience VS. Piracy
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2004, 05:02:05 AM »
Hehe, imagine they tracked ROM downloads to determine which games need a rerelease... No way to do that properly, though...

EDIT: Gamespy offers tips on how to track down copies of old games. Just in time, eh?

Offline Draygaia

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RE: Convenience VS. Piracy
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2004, 08:28:28 AM »
Um recently I just heard that it IS legal to d/l roms as long as they'r not in production anymore.
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Offline Bloodworth

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RE: Convenience VS. Piracy
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2004, 08:55:02 AM »
Not true.  The only legal grounds anyone has is with games they already own.  
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Offline ThePerm

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RE: Convenience VS. Piracy
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2004, 10:32:51 AM »
actually heres how roms work....you can back it up yourself..buy one of those expensive backup devices that copy's the rom off your cart and turns it into a file on your computer...thats perfectly legal...but as soon as someone backs it up and rereleases the game on the internet they are copying it..this is a copright violation.
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Offline nitsu niflheim

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RE: Convenience VS. Piracy
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2004, 02:17:07 PM »
so since I own Earthbound I can download the rom, and be in the clear?  But I don't see the reason to really since I own Earthbound and can just as well hook up my SNES and play it, but then again the convenience of the ROM comes into play too.
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Offline Djunknown

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RE: Convenience VS. Piracy
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2004, 04:18:22 PM »
Even if you were able to track games down, chances are Nintendo won't collect on that purchase. Take E-bay for example. I can find tons of NES games, and if I buy them, Nintendo isn't seeing that money, and you're making the owner that much richer.

You can make other really good rationlizations, but until Companies stop being control-freaks you never what might happen. Also emulators can do really cool tricks that the original couldn't do, but I'll leave it at that.

I'm sure if Nintendo did something a la itunes, people would flock to it. Would you partcipate in that if it were feasible, say a few bucks a download? And made an emulator that properly supported online-play? With good 3rd party support? think about it.
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Offline ThePerm

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RE: Convenience VS. Piracy
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2004, 05:06:59 PM »
backing up your stuff is fine as long as you dont distribute them...that is what im saying...if you place a rom on a server....and i mean move it there..not copy it..tis still legal...however..whenever someone downloads they make a copy....this is copyright infringement and thus illegal.
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Convenience VS. Piracy
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2004, 07:29:47 PM »
"I'm sure if Nintendo did something a la itunes, people would flock to it. Would you partcipate in that if it were feasible, say a few bucks a download? And made an emulator that properly supported online-play? With good 3rd party support? think about it."

I would gladly pay for that service if:
1. It was a reasonable price.
2. It had games I wanted to play.  If Nintendo just pulled an Animal Crossing and only offered minor NES games like Balloon Fight or really old titles like Donkey Kong I wouldn't be interested.  It has to have every Arcade, NES, SNES, GB, and maybe even N64 title that Nintendo owns the rights to.  That means if I want a perfect emulation of the original NES version of Super Mario Bros. 3 I can download it for like a buck and not be forced to buy the remaked GBA version.  But Nintendo would likely never make major titles like that available for download.  The only stuff made available would be stuff they could never sell ports of like Clu Clu Land.

Third party support would be a really cool bonus but wouldn't be required for me to use the service.  Online play just doesn't really make any sense since those games aren't designed for online play.

Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Convenience VS. Piracy
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2004, 08:10:56 PM »
The SNES had such a download service.

Offline Uglydot

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RE:Convenience VS. Piracy
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2004, 12:59:49 PM »
I consider ROMs to systems that are no longer being produced in any form to be a gray area.  I won't buy another game in the place of the game I want, so that isn't a very valid argument to me.  I own a PC game pad and have ROMs of a few SNES games that I own simply because I don't always want to hook up my system.  I also have a PSX emulator that I use to play my commericially bought PSX games as my PSX is the first version and sometimes gets angry loading RPGs and I get angry when I lost my stop in an RPG because of that.

ROMs to present generation systems are completely illegal in my book and should be.