Topic: Nintendo Innovations 1: The hand controller.

[AMac2002]

17.The 'No Look' style button layout
Description: People don't have to look down to obey the on screen command to press the 'B' or 'Y' button – It's position and shape mean you know by feel
(No one has copied yet, although I wish Sony would do something about it. After eight years I still have to check which is square and which is O)


Just because You have to check down, doesn't men every else does. I barely ever play PS2, but when I do, I just ask my friend who owns one where all four buttons are, and I can remember for the rest of the day. Don't blame your poor memory on it...

18.Digital click on Analogue triggers
Description: Another useful function added to an existing idea. For example, in Mario Sunshine, press to run with water, click to lock on the spot and pivot.
(No copy yet, although Sony and Xbox added a click to their analogue sticks)


I'm having a little trouble understanding how Xbox and Ps2 copied the Gamecube control when they came out first.




- All three other companies (Sega, Sony, Microsoft) have released new controller for a system WITHIN a generation to combat features Nintendo's current controller already offered:

Control S coming out had NOTHING to do with the gamecubes controllers. There wasn't ANYthing new added to the S.

- Microsoft released the Xbox 's' controller to combat another feature of the GameCube controller: comfort. Once again, the poor owner of 4 original controllers has to buy another to be able to reach all the buttons.

be able to reach all the buttons? What are you talking about. And I certainly did not buy a new one, I still have three orignals, and one 3rd party ctrlr.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Wha?  Is it 2001 again?

[ThePerm]

as far as dual shock goes..actually Sony talked about how they were experimenting with force feedback before nintendo annonced the rumble pak. Simple fact is Ninty just beat Sony to the market.

[Bill Aurion]

That only means Ninty was experimenting with it before them...

[The Omen]

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as far as dual shock goes..actually Sony talked about how they were experimenting with force feedback before nintendo annonced the rumble pak. Simple fact is Ninty just beat Sony to the market.

Of course they said that.  Can you imagine a sony exec saying "Heck, we just loved Nintendos idea and took it!"

All i'll say about Nintendo controllers is this-i never have to think about them, which really is the ultimate compliment.

[Djunknown]

"Actually Nintendo did steal the concept of memory cards. I'm not sure if Sony did it first but I know Nintendo certainly wasn't the first to do it since they didn't have any sort of memory card until the N64 and the Playstation was already out by then."


Notice that it was said that Nintendo was the one to put the memory card IN the controller first, NOT in the console. Sony's idea of putting the Memory card came from somebody else. Guess who? Hold on, wait for it....

Here it is: NEO-Geo was the first console to use some sort of memory card. Granted, it was mainly used to save your high scores and not your progress, SNK gave it to the people first, (Albeit those who could afford) providing an even closer arcade feel by not having your high scores erased once you turn it off.

While one could debate how Sega made a 6 button controller mid-way during the 16 bit wars, you could play Street fighter II with optimal efficeincy. Granted, you could still play somewhat comfortably on the SNES, the arcade feel was lost. And when Super Street fighter 2 came out, don't tell me using the L&R triggers felt right when you were going for high end combos.

While not really an issue today, and basically splitting hairs, playing Capcom VS SNK 2 just doesn't feel right on the 'Cube. Though damn Capcom for using the 6 button scheme as opposed to the four buttons its Dreamcast predessecor used...(Probably one of the reasons if Hyper Street Fighter II ever made it to the US, a 'Cube port is unlikey... *Sniff*)

I DO like the idea of a Nintendo innovations column, but please make sure you do some research beforehand. MY last 2 statements are editoral, so take them as you will, but be cautious when making bold statements. There will always be a nerd waving their index finger  

[davidlow122]

Thanks for reading, everyone! The main point I was trying to make was how many aspects of the modern controller on all 3 current systems came from Nintendo originally. Other companies may have made small revisions here and there, but as many as I listed? Although some may not be 'innovations', like buttons named after letters, they have still been copied by the others, so there is something there. And if something was major, I referred to it as a 'revolution', and all these points were copied directly by Nintendo's competitors. I'll say what I think about some posts:

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The Atari 2600 had 4 controller ports.
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fair eneough, I suppose Nintendo 're-introduced' the idea to a more recent generation.


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I remember where each button on the PS2 controller is. It isn't very hard.
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It's a pain in the ass to write about! eg, input this SNES (or even Gamecube) code: BBBABYR start, or input this PS2 code L1, L2, square, circle, cross, triangle, R2, start!



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Nintendo uses (Z button) for select button-ish features but those don't really benefit from the button's placement. Third parties try to use it as an action button and run into problems because of Nintendo's half-assed answer to their request.
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It's a pretty standard map button in first party titles (Mario, Metroid), but you are right about third parties. It is meant as a button you remove your finger from R to use (like using C stick and B A X Y at the same time), not an R2 button


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"Sony released the Dual Analogue to answer Nintendo's analogue control, and then the Dual Shock to answer Nintendo's Rumble pak feature"

I thought there was only a Dual Shock.
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No, sony actually released an analogue controller first, then the Dual Shock later. The Analogue one looked like the Dual Shock, but with more grip on the sticks. This really pissed off my friend, who bought the Analogue one for Rage Racer, then had to get the Dual shock for certain games, too.

But hasn't it occured to everyone that all four generations of Sony controllers (PS1, Analogue, Dual Shock, PS2) are the same shape? Their 'innovations' are literallytacked on to a ten year old design!


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And to say that Nintendo is stealing Sony's idea of "integrated" Rumble is quite ludicrous.
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Thank you, Deguello!


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Control S coming out had NOTHING to do with the gamecubes controllers. There wasn't ANY thing new added to the S.
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Yes it did (and PS2 as well)! It was the japanese controller, brought out here because of demand,  because the other one sucked. What was new was comfort, well, more comfort anyway.

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be able to reach all the [original Xbox controller] buttons? What are you talking about?
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I'm talking about the fact that the original Xbox controller was like hoding two large potatoes, and your thumb had to reach a long way to reach the tiny, crappy buttons, espescially the Black and white ones.


Once again, It is the sheer volume of new things they brought about, not arguments about small revisions.

Any other thoughts?

[AMac2002]

"brought out here because of demand, because the other one sucked." Yeah, so what does that have to do with Gamecube and PS2 controllers. They were disappointed with the original, that's it.

"I'm talking about the fact that the original Xbox controller was like hoding two large potatoes" Well, that's your opinion, w/e, but if you really truly think that, then im sorry.

[MeddmaWamm]

Nintendo decided to go with integrated rumble for Gamecube, so they "copied" Sony. Just as Microsoft copied BOTH Sega and Nintendo by having slots in their controller. They copied Nintendo because Nintendo had the controller slot idea first, and they copied Sega by having 2 slots. Just as Nintendo would be coping Sega if they had decided to put 2 controller slots in Gamecube's controller. Yes, Nintendo originally came up with the idea, but sega expanded on it a bit, so Nintendo would be copying.  

[Mario]

Technically Sony and Microsoft copied Nintendo by starting up a company, which Nintendo did first back in the 1800's if i'm not mistaken. Nintendo wins. Oops i just posted a message, but i didn't invent the posting of messages, i guess i'm in big trouble.

*drum roll*

[Uglydot]

This is one of the most annoying and useless threads.  It's based on how much everyone knows about gaming, which is always uneven.  Half of these "innovations are simply evolutions of previous technologies.  

[davidlow122]

Man, the copying is only important because it shows where the creative power is. If someone invents something, and someone else copies it, that's a form of compliment.

Really, I'm not trying to say Sony sucks because they copy Nintendo's ideas (although they do suck for making me buy a new controller mid generation). then Nintendo would suck when they copy ideas too. But give credit where credit is due. Where would we be without Nintendo's developments? Atari joysticks with dual shocks?

It's like asking 'Where would Electric Guitar be if Jimi Hendrix never existed?'. Or, 'Where would Fantasy novels be if Tolkien never lived?' Sure, others would have come up with some or maybe all of the ideas eventually, but how long would it take? And what would we have missed in the meantime?

Anyway sorry about all the opinion in my responses. I wanted to document certain facts, to prove a point. And most of the original article is factual: based on the few points people have argued about, most of you agree. That Nintendo inrtoduced the Type of sticks, controller memory card slot, and name of the Xbox controllers buttons is a fact. That it feels like holding two potatoes is not.

Any suggestions for another 'Innovations' article?

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

I'll buy the product I like for the best value, thanks.

[nolimit19]

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Originally posted by: thecubedcanuck
um, who cares???

seriously  

[AERO]

Innovation is far to strong a word for some of those. And a few are just based on your opinion.  

[Myxtika1 Azn]

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Originally posted by: Djunknown
And when Super Street fighter 2 came out, don't tell me using the L&R triggers felt right when you were going for high end combos.

I just want to chime in here with an opinion.  I find it much easier to perform combos by using the R button as the combo opener (I assign the "Fierce" punch to this button).  This frees up my thumb to hit the other 2-4 buttons to finish the combo up.  It is much better than moving your thumb all over the place.

[Deguello]

" Nintendo decided to go with integrated rumble for Gamecube, so they "copied" Sony."

Logic is wasted on the ignorant.

I would imagine Nintendo decided to go with integrated rumble because IT WAS THEIR IDEA IN THE FIRST PLACE.  You are wrong.  Admit it and save some dignity.

[mouse_clicker]

Deguello's right- Nintendo invented the idea of a rumbling controller and Sony used the idea on the Dual Shock controller for the Playstation. Not that that's a bad thing, since rumbling technology is a great thing to have regardless, but don't try to act like Nintendo copied Sony in the area.

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But hasn't it occured to everyone that all four generations of Sony controllers (PS1, Analogue, Dual Shock, PS2) are the same shape? Their 'innovations' are literallytacked on to a ten year old design!

While that is true, there's a good reason for it. As we all know, the Playstation was originally an SNES CD add on that Sony turned into a console after Nintendo backed out of the deal. Obviously when it still was meant to hook up to the SNES, it used an SNES controller. When Sony retooled it into a stand alone console, they modified the controller a bit to make the original PSX controller, adding the handles and extra shoulder buttons, I assume because Sony didn't really expect the Playstation to be all that popular at the beginning. Of course Sony had to keep the same basic controller design throughout the Playstation's life, and then when the PS2 was released, one of its biggest features being backwards compatibility, I'm guessing Sony felt it would be much easier to keep the same controller design instead of making a whole new one and then mapping out the corresponding buttons when people actually do play PSX games. Besides, it IS a very good design, and although I don't think it's perfect, I'd rather Sony not deviate from the design all that much.  

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

AWRGU ARGUE ARGUE AHRGEW

[thepoga]

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Originally posted by: Professional 666
AWRGU ARGUE ARGUE AHRGEW

i dont know what u said, but here's my thing.
(note: actually i really liked this. if not for a few things that i think are kind of false or not THAT innovative)
6.Buttons named X and Y
Description: Pretty simple, but once again obviously effective since almost everyone has copied it.
( Mega Drive/Genesis, Saturn, Dreamcast, Xbox [Playstation, Playstation Dual Shock and PS2 controllers also have an 'X' button])
the “X” on ps controllers are just simple shapes. Its not really copying, because they were trying to make distinct shapes. Shape of a triangle, square, circle, and there aren’t any other things except a diamond but its too similar to a square. So another simple symbol was an X. that's like saying the xbox controller's innovative thing is one black button and one white button(or clear).

11.The rumble feature
Description: While Nintendo gave you an add on free with Starfox to have this feature, Sony made you buy a very expensive new controller for it.
(Playstation Dual Shock, Dreamcast, PS2, Xbox)
and what if u didn’t get starfox? So u have to pay for the controller, and the rumble. Plus add on batteries. I think it was more innovative to add it on the inside, eliminating the need for it. Batteries that is…

12.In controller memory card
Description: Reduced clutter on the front of the console – look at how ugly a PS2 is with several memory cards and a DVD remote plugged in to it. Phased out for Gamecube since Wavebird is a one way signal.
(Dreamcast, Xbox)
ok… in controller memory cards were NOT an innovation. I think it was a very strange idea in fact. It was not on the Gamecube because ITS NOT A GOOD IDEA.

14.the 'Trigger' style shoulder button (Z button)
Description: a shoulder button in a place where it is easier to control, giving a more precision feel. Developed by the Dreamcast controller into the Analogue triggers (in my opinion the most major innovation not from Nintendo)
( Playstation Dual Shock and PS2's second shoulder buttons were widened and brought back from their original playstation controller positions to create some of this effect. Xbox and Gamecube have followed the Dreamcast development)
… I don’t even know what to say to this one. Urg. Z button was not a big great idea. It was basically the “L” button for when u play with the anolog stick.

GameCube
16.The camera stick (C stick)
Description: Development of the C buttons into Analogue format.
(Xbox)
Actually nintendo basically copied the dual shock, in having dual anolog sticks on the controller. Just different placement on them (I like the gamecube’s better however because the main left button thing is the anolog stick instead of a digital pad). And nobody else can develop C buttons, into anything because Nintendo was the only one that had buttons called c buttons. BUT the concept in controlling that camera with c buttons is made by Nintendo, i think… pretty sure… someone check me on this… actually don’t I'm not worth the time.

18.Digital click on Analogue triggers
Description: Another useful function added to an existing idea. For example, in Mario Sunshine, press to run with water, click to lock on the spot and pivot.
(No copy yet, although Sony and Xbox added a click to their analogue sticks)
actually this is a good one. Just wanted to say that the face buttons of ps2 are analog as well. Not sure about the xbox though.

Nintendo dropped the select button two generations ago. Once you had many more accessible buttons, another option button was obsolete. But Sony and Microsoft keep the button, even though it is never used (It's mostly used as an alternate pause to an inventory or map screen (eg. Resident evil). The Gamecube Z button is a better, more modern alternative
The Gamecube z button is just an extra button. Its placement sucks.

I just want to say that u did a great job on this though. Youre a great Nintendo fan. All the rest of the things you mentioned are fantastic. I only had problems with seven of the things u said. But I really………. yeah…
Well anyways great job.

also, mentioned was the ps2 controller by mouse_clicker. youre just plain wrong. the controller sucks. im just messing. ya, the ps2 controller is designed around the SNES controller. its the best controller for ALL types of games. thats the only thing the gamecube cant do as well, fighting and sports. if only they made the D pad a little bigger. man the snes controller was the best.  

[Mannypon]

has anyone ever noticed that the playstation controller is practically a complete rip off of the snes controller cept its been updated for this generation with new features such as rumble and analog support.  If you trace back to the ps1 first generation control it was basically a slicker snes controller wit extra shoulder buttons and the face buttons werent letters but shapes.  The layout of the direction pad and face buttons I think are identical to the snes and I dont know off hand but I bet you can measure the distance between one face button to the next and it'll prob be exactly the same as the snes's lol.

[davidlow122]

Responses:


to Mouse_clicker:
Good point about the backward compatibilty of PS2 controllers. I hadn't thought of that, Point taken. Although I still don't think it's a good design. When using the digital pad (which I do a lot coz the stick sucks for the games I play eg Tony Hawk), my thumb bumps the analogue stick, which affects the game since usually both directional devices do the same thing. The analogue buttons are useless - I've only seen them used as two setting buttons (eg MGS2), and even that's a pain coz you can't brace well eneough.

to thepoga:
Thanks for not being pissed off at the whole thing because you disagreed with some points. I'll respond to some of yours:

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what if u didn’t get starfox? So u have to pay for the controller, and the rumble. Plus add on batteries. I think it was more innovative to add it on the inside, eliminating the need for it. Batteries that is…
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If you didn't get starfox (I didn't), then you buy one for AU$20 (I live in Australia). To replace your PS1 controller (or original analogue controller) with a Dual Shock was AU$70. And while most games Used the rumble pak, none required it. Some ps1 games did require the analogue. So worst case scenario for N64 owner was:
AU$50(controller) + AU$20(rumble) =  AU$70
for PS1 owner was:
AU$50(controller) + AU$60(analogue controller) + AU$70(Dual shock) = AU$180.


As for batteries, there were some third party Rumble paks which needed no batteries, and they came out pretty quickly. I have one, it's pretty good. As to why they used batteries when you can do without I have no answer for....

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ok… in controller memory cards were NOT an innovation. I think it was a very strange idea in fact.
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I said why they were good, reduced clutter on the front of the console! some sports and wrestling games allowed four players to save their stats/wrestlers to their own card and load them up individually in the game. So did perfect dark. I missed 4 memory card slots in timesplitter 2, my friends and I had to save our profiles to one memory card and copy them back to our own at the end of a session.

It WAS only removed from the gamecube to accomidate the wavebird, I remember them saying so, pre-launch.


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Urg. [N64]Z button was not a big great idea. It was basically the “L” button for when u play with the anolog stick.
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Most people would disagree with you. It allowed you to grip the prong better with three fingers and hit the 'shoulder' button with more accuracy, like the trigger of a gun. The current triggers on GC and XB feel like the N64 Z.



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Actually nintendo basically copied the dual shock, in having dual anolog sticks on the controller. Just different placement on them (I like the gamecube’s better however because the main left button thing is the anolog stick instead of a digital pad). And nobody else can develop C buttons, into anything because Nintendo was the only one that had buttons called c buttons. BUT the concept in controlling that camera with c buttons is made by Nintendo
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I still think a second directional controll on the right is a development of N64 C buttons, or at least the Virtual boy right D-pad.


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Nintendo dropped the select button two generations ago. Once you had many more accessible buttons, another option button was obsolete. But Sony and Microsoft keep the button, even though it is never used (It's mostly used as an alternate pause to an inventory or map screen (eg. Resident evil). The Gamecube Z button is a better, more modern alternative
The Gamecube z button is just an extra button. Its placement sucks.
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Yeah, but what about the other point here? The other companies' select button is MUCH further away, and therefore MORE useless. The others are more concerned with convention then Innovation.

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I just want to say that u did a great job on this though. Youre a great Nintendo fan. All the rest of the things you mentioned are fantastic. I only had problems with seven of the things u said. But I really………. yeah…
Well anyways great job.
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Thanks! Thats exactly how I would like to be described! I wish more people who worked for alleged 'Fan' sites liked Nintendo as much as I do!

[DrZoidberg]

sony invented nintendo when they traveled back in time to ejaculate in the primordial soup. i hear gaming industry angsters came from puddle 3

[mouse_clicker]

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Although I still don't think it's a good design.

Oh, I definitely think it could be improved, and I hope Sony does so with the PS3 should they use the same basic controller design, but on the whole I like it very much, especially since, as thepoga said, " its the best controller for ALL types of games."- in other words, it's an extremely versatile controller, which is essential for a console that has as varied a lineup as the Playstation.

[AMac2002]

"But Sony and Microsoft keep the button, even though it is never used"

I understand that that was hyperbole, but that really is wrong. The select button on Xbox, or "back" as it's actually called, is used in some games for more of a quick button feature so you don't have to press start and cycle through things, and in a lot of online games for the current scoreboard. It seriously is not a waste, at all.