Author Topic: Why are you proud to say the Pledge of Allegiance? (Read 26149 times)

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #50 on:** December 17, 2003, 04:39:52 PM »

Well, if you mean dangerous as in physically dangerous, yes I do think atheists are fairly harmless. What this guy did, though, was claim that he didn't want his 6-year-old daughter saying the pledge of allegiance in school because it forced religion on her. Now I agree with his intentions, but he went about it entirely the wrong way. His daughter probably doesn't even know what the pledge means, much less decided it's unfairly forcing someone else's belief on her. If she decides it's offensive when she's formed an opinion on the subject, great. Or if her dad wanted to take the case up with the government directly, that's great, too, but I'd rather they had left the line in the pledge rather than get an innocent 6-year-old caught up in the middle. That's not the way we should uphold our first ammendment.

Also, I think I know why atheists are generaly nonviolent and harmless in that way, but it would be generalizing, and I know there'd be a huge debate, so I'll pass on it.

Grey Ninja · « **Reply #51 on:** December 17, 2003, 05:01:30 PM »

mouse, I am actually siding with the dude 100% now. I thought he took a machette and walked into a church or something like that. Kids are very impressionable, and it's not right to let others impose their views on them at a young age. The church is considered by some to be a domain of evil, and to subject your daughter to the brainwashing of the church at 5 years old is just not healthy.

But regardless, her father is one of two people who should decide whether he wants to subject her to religious propaganda or not. The pledge is intended to stir up loyalty to God and the state both, and her father wanted to exercise his right to give his daughter freedom of choice in the matter.

The thing is that America doesn't really have seperation of church and state, and the dude challenged that. That is the real reason (opinions notwithstanding), that I side with him.

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #52 on:** December 17, 2003, 05:06:33 PM »

I recited the pledge of allegiance every school day for 9 years, and every Monday for the past 2 years, and I'm as devout an atheist as you'll ever meet. Kids are impressionable, yes, but not from reciting two words they hardly know the meaning to, indeed if they know the meaning at all. Kids are most impressed on by their parents, and my parents stressed the freedom to make one's own spiritual decisions. I see what that man did as compensating for his own inability to let his daughter know she can decide to believe in whatever it is she wants to, and if she's been brainwashed by a simple pledge than his parenting skills are even worse than I thought. Like I said, if the girl wants to decide that it's offensive when she's formed her own opinion, great, but her father was merely using her to get what he wanted. I have no respect for people like that and am ashamed to have him counted among me.

I do believe in the seperation of church and state (which is upheld in this country- look at the Alabama court house case), but I want it to be achieved through the right methods, not coweringly manipulating innocent bystanders to achieve those results- the ends do not justify the means. I liken it to the act of pushing a passerby into oncoming traffic to demonstrate how dangerous busy streets are.

Grey Ninja · « **Reply #53 on:** December 17, 2003, 05:14:18 PM »

But allowing a public school to force your children to say a religious statement in the classroom? That's just not right. Sure, I know that they could refuse, but how many 5 year olds do you know who would do that?

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #54 on:** December 17, 2003, 05:18:42 PM »

If the 5 year old doesn't know enough to refuse to recite the pledge, then how can you expect them to know enough to be influenced by a simple line in a pledge that is recited more out of habit than partiotism? And like we've said, they're not being forced to say the pledge, that's an even much more serious violation of our First Ammendment.

Grey Ninja · « **Reply #55 on:** December 17, 2003, 05:22:38 PM »

Well, it doesn't personally concern me, as I live in Canada, where 50% of our population is either atheist or agnostic. We don't have those problems. We can also walk down the street with not-white skin without fear.

Bill Aurion · « **Reply #56 on:** December 17, 2003, 05:23:13 PM »

"The pledge is intended to stir up loyalty to God and the state both, and her father wanted to exercise his right to give his daughter freedom of choice in the matter."

Well isn't the father forcing his beliefs on his daughter then? It isn't right to blame one side for forcing beliefs when the other side is shooting for the same exact thing...At such a young age the only things that make an impression are actions and emotions, not concepts, and the father is 100% wrong here...

If the daughter was older and actually complained herself, then I would agree with the "freedom of choice" argument, but as it stands the whole thing is just plain stupid...

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #57 on:** December 17, 2003, 05:26:30 PM »

Exactly, Bill- I don't disagree with what the father was trying to attain, just the manner in which he was trying to attain it.

And Ninja, as I understand there's not enough non-whites in Canada to cause much of a problem anyway.

Grey Ninja · « **Reply #58 on:** December 17, 2003, 05:29:24 PM »

So her father doesn't have the right to teach his daughter the difference between right and wrong then either?

Ok. Absolute last word on the subject. Promise. I am going to bed now and sleeping it off. silverdonut, I think you have your answer. I dislike the American pledge because it combines religion and state.

I dislike the Canadian flag because it iconifies the Canadian government's complete lack of respect for the west. During the last election, they announced the winners before my province's vote had even been counted. The two most western provinces provide most of Canada's budget, but get the least respect. Probably because our vote doesn't matter squat.

If Canada had a pledge, it would probably emphasize tolerance among all the different groups in Canada. But it doesn't really need saying, as Canada is a pretty friendly country, and be you Indian, Black, Italian, Spanish, Japanese, Chinese, or even French... you can walk down a street without fear of being persecuted for your birthright. I visited Alabama and Mississippi a while back, and I could not say the same about those places. (I am not white). If Canada did have a pledge, I would probably feel proud of my country for making it a good place to live.

And Mouse Clicker, Canada's population is incredibly diverse. We have an entire province full of French people who feel the need to BAN VIDEO GAMES WITHOUT FRENCH COVERS!!!! (sorry... pet gripe of mine...) But the government always jumps through hoops to please them.... And you can't go 500km in any direction without hitting a reserve of some kind. There are Indians in every town across the country. There are more kinds of non-white than Black you know.

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #59 on:** December 17, 2003, 05:38:59 PM »

Quote
I dislike the American pledge because it combines religion and state.

That's not entirely accurate because, like I said, the line "...under god..." wasn't added until 1956. It was spoken without that line for many a year before.

Also, I'm going to tell you one thing to remember when visiting the US- NEVER base your opinion of it off of Alabama or Mississippi, and probably not Lousiana, either.

Really, though, the vast majority of Americans are good, honest, people who are not racist- the problem is you only ever hear about the racist and sexist ones making a scene. Religious tolerance needs some work, but we're getting there. I recently read a poll done by CNN- some 98% said they woould not be opposed to a black president. Some 97-98% said they would not be opposed to a women president. Some 69% said they would not be opposed to a homosexual president. Yet only 49% or so would not be opposed to an atheist president.

And French isn't being diverse, man.

Canada was half settled by the French, as I understand it. My particular high school in Kansas has a very large Vietnamese and Laotian population.

Bill Aurion · « **Reply #60 on:** December 17, 2003, 05:42:13 PM »

I agree with your opinion on the Pledge, Grey, but you really are making a hypocritical argument when it comes to the rights of the young girl...If you truly believe in what you say, that the girl has the "freedom of choice," then her father, along with the government, should not be pushing anything on her...But again, she's at such a young age that it doesn't make a difference at this time...

To the father: Just let your child live a normal life...When she eventually matures and reaches that fork in the road, she will be able to make her own decisions...

I would just like to end with a similar story that involves my family...I live in a Catholic family, and though they are very religious, they allowed me to believe in whatever I wished...I just happened to grow up as a Christian, while my sister now considers herself an Atheist...It's sad that so few families(such as the father in this case) are tolerant in religious beliefs...

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #61 on:** December 17, 2003, 05:44:53 PM »

Once again you voice my exact sentiment, Bill- forcing atheism on your children is not better than forcing Catholocism or Southern Baptism on your children. However, I'm not entirely sure if the father wanted his daughter to be an atheist, just to not have that line in the pledge.

A friend of mine is being brought up by very strict Catholic parents that quite simply will not allow him to follow any other path, and as a result have driven him towards agnosticism and being almost as anti-organize religion as I am. His mother won't even let him see his friends unless he starts volunteering at church more often (On a related note, I find forced volunteering to be terribly funny

).

Grey Ninja · « **Reply #62 on:** December 17, 2003, 05:45:24 PM »

Yeah... well..... you don't irritate us Canadians. Otherwise we'll get a couple cases of beer, and take a canoe down to the White House and have ourselves another bon fire at good old 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

God I love Canada. I mean... burning down the White House has to be the funniest thing in the history of the world. It's the most Canadian way of fighting a war that there ever was.

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #63 on:** December 17, 2003, 05:49:25 PM »

I don't recall the Canadians ever burning down the White House- I believe that was the British during the War of 1812, although it was done by the British living in what is now Canada.

Bill Aurion · « **Reply #64 on:** December 17, 2003, 05:50:38 PM »

mouse_clicker: Yeah, that's what I meant about low religious tolerance...The world would be such a better place if everyone would just leave their beliefs to themselves, and stop forcing it on others... -___-

Grey: I can tell you're drunk...Maybe you should keep your little schemes to yourself...

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #65 on:** December 17, 2003, 05:51:58 PM »

Bah, if he wants to fantasize about burning down the White House, let him. One nationalist Canadian can't be too harmful. Can they?

Grey Ninja · « **Reply #66 on:** December 17, 2003, 05:52:06 PM »

Mouse, we only really got our full independence from Britian in like the last 30 years. I think it's safe to say that we were Canadians 50 years ago, and we still are.

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #67 on:** December 17, 2003, 05:53:21 PM »

Right, but the White House was burned down 189 years ago.

Grey Ninja · « **Reply #68 on:** December 17, 2003, 06:01:16 PM »

Yeah, well, we were Canadians then too.

Face it. Canadians live in Canada.

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #69 on:** December 17, 2003, 06:06:36 PM »

Have it your way.

Damn Canadians.

ThePerm · « **Reply #70 on:** December 17, 2003, 07:31:48 PM »

heheh.. in my school we like said prayers before lunch...and it was a public school..im suprised they got away with it...to tell you the truth you don't form your religious views until your in your teens...when you start thinking.

Heres a quesiton they ask children.
If your wife was dying and you couldnt afford the medicine to cure her would you steal the medicine
a child...stealing is wrong

an adult
hells yeah! Like im a fuckface if i let my wife die when i could just "borrow" some medicine. Also the doctors are Fuckfaces for charging for my wifes medicine when they could save her life for free...greedy murderors!

NarmaK · « **Reply #71 on:** December 17, 2003, 08:22:51 PM »

"The church is considered by some to be a domain of evil"
Uh, hells yeah.

That guy was an idiot though, dont say you dont want a belief system forced on your daughter, say you dont want that belief system forced on her.

Its very simple, political correctness is crap.
Just say, "I think that god is a crock of **** and religion, (or what I like to call mysticism) does nothing to help society".
Then when a crazy wench says to him, "oh yeah, well because of god, I give my change to bums!"
Then the guy should say, "oh yeah! well because of the free time I save on sundays, im a multi-billionare, and I drop gold lumps of crap in the bums whino clang jars! And I do it despite my disbelief in some dude that may or may not set me on fire if I dont."
Then the crazy chick'll say something like, " oh yeah, well what about all the dirty thieves and murderers that found jesus and are now walking the streets again because the idiot judge at the parol hearing thought that jesus was a magical being that made murderers into not murderers"
Then the dude'll be all like,"so it was you! gaurds! arrest her!"
Then as shes carried away by the ninja flying monkeys the oompa loompas will be all like,"oompa loompa doopity doo, you are an idiot so **** you".

Yup, fecking gypsies.

As for the moderators, delete this post if you want, but if you do, you are a communist.

Deguello · « **Reply #72 on:** December 17, 2003, 09:12:43 PM »

Shut the hell up.

Wait... better be on topic.

God damn, shut the hell up.

NarmaK · « **Reply #73 on:** December 17, 2003, 09:23:31 PM »

Youre going to hell for that.

Oldskool · « **Reply #74 on:** December 18, 2003, 05:25:32 AM »

I believe that (Sorry if this is a few pages late) Patriotism is good unless you a patriotc enough to blindly follow your country no matter what. I love Britain, and God save the queen, but just look at World War 1. At the start of it, patriotism was so high in the countries of Europe, that men where excited at the idea of war. they wanted to fight to prove their country's strength, win pride and land for their country, become national heros, and then go home. Britain soon found it had so many volinteers that conscription was almost pointless. Then... the slaughter of trench warfare, with millions killed by machine gun fire, artillary shells, and deadly gas...

News:

Author Topic: Why are you proud to say the Pledge of Allegiance? (Read 26149 times)