Topic: The Console Wars: Game On - Article in TIME Magazine

[teckmoney]

Nintendo is able to make their system dirt cheap mainly because it cant be used as a dvd player. xbox and ps2 keep their prices b/c they are also dvd player and my xbox is a very good one at that...which competes almost better than my sony dvd player. Nintendo tries to innovate, but they are dumb i think. They ALWAYS want to be different instead of tried and true conformity. Honestly, how can you make a game nowadays...with CG, FMV movies...as well as high resolution game content and SLAM it all on a 1.5 gig disk? I don't think you can. Heck, most pc games require that much install space or more. I still like playing my xbox just to see a lot of movies and stuff, something that i have not seen on any GC games ive played (not a whole lot sinse a lot are either party or kid games) Their sales were first hurt by the *fruity* color when it launched which led many college students and teen - adult gamers away and labeled it strictly a kids toy. For a company who recycles SO many of its old franchise games...nintendo should try to focus on older folk like me (21 years old) who used to play the old franchise games when they first started. blah blah blah im tired of typing : )

[Kyosho]

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They ALWAYS want to be different instead of tried and true conformity

For some reason looking back, that is pretty true since the N64 error.  I remember I was shocked that they were going to do cartridges, and I kept convincing myself that it will be good.  But look what happened...  

For the gamecube, I was hoping it would be CDs, but they opted for minidiscs.  Look what is happening...

[mouse_clicker]

All hope of intelligent discussion just went out the window. :/

[ThePerm]

Nintendo is my emperor and with one fell swoop of my sword i would proudly behead my enemies!

Also and i more or less bought a black gamecube because it matches my vcr and n64...im thinking about buying a blue pokemon vcr...that way it matches my mario kart phone.  

i also have a blak gameboy advance too....

[the_zombie_luke]

I have to admit that the Spice and Platinum Cubes look great, but I like the purple one. The color was the last thing I thought about when I got GameCube. All I could think about was SSBM. SSBM!  

[Ghost_of_a_Flea]

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Originally posted by: teckmoney
Nintendo is able to make their system dirt cheap mainly because it cant be used as a dvd player. xbox and ps2 keep their prices b/c they are also dvd player and my xbox is a very good one at that...which competes almost better than my sony dvd player. Nintendo tries to innovate, but they are dumb i think. They ALWAYS want to be different instead of tried and true conformity. Honestly, how can you make a game nowadays...with CG, FMV movies...as well as high resolution game content and SLAM it all on a 1.5 gig disk? I don't think you can. Heck, most pc games require that much install space or more. I still like playing my xbox just to see a lot of movies and stuff, something that i have not seen on any GC games ive played (not a whole lot sinse a lot are either party or kid games) Their sales were first hurt by the *fruity* color when it launched which led many college students and teen - adult gamers away and labeled it strictly a kids toy. For a company who recycles SO many of its old franchise games...nintendo should try to focus on older folk like me (21 years old) who used to play the old franchise games when they first started. blah blah blah im tired of typing : )

First, both Xbox and PS2 are horrible DVD players (although the Xbox is better), just buy a dedicated player.  It's also entirely possible to fit CG and FMV movies on a 1.5 gig disc, in fact many PS2 games are still on regular CDs.  Now that the simple stuff is out of the way...

By your philosophy bands shouldn't create new or innovative music when they can follow the tried and true formula of pop stars and boy-bands who came before them?  Why make other kinds of music when we have Justin Timberlake and Britney Spears?  That just says something about the state of gamers as a whole; they'd rather buy a system that has a few hardware limitations (PS2) instead of a system that's a "fruity color."  If you’d rather buy a flawed system than one with a "fruity color" I don’t think you can refer to yourself as an adult.  

I don't hate the PS2 (I've owned one since release), and I don't think the GameCube's perfect, but this is a horrible point of view.  Without innovation there’s no progress; it might not always work, but that’s how progress is made.  I can thank Nintendo for giving me fresh gameplay instead of the same regurgitated games like… oh let’s say the Final Fantasy series. Pikmin and Animal Crossing might not appeal to everyone, but it opens new possibilities; I guarantee you within a year or two you'll see quite a few games adopting the innovation stemming from both of these games.  

A novel idea, to me, is that if you want to see a movie then buy a $15 movie instead of a $50 game that you watch for 75% of the time.  I, on the other hand, tend to buy games to actually play the games.  Yet you’re complaining about innovation?  It’s come to the point where people complain about the being creative…  Hey, I know, let’s make another turn-based RPG with a reluctant hero who falls in love and in turn saves the world.  We can’t forget to make the game easy for casual gamers and give them bright shiny flashing lights to look at; all the while they’re in complete amazement at the "creative" storyline!  

[yellowfellow]

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All hope of intelligent discussion just went out the window. :/

it's just a little redundant... it's still good... it's still good

[WesDawg]

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I can thank Nintendo for giving me fresh gameplay instead of the same regurgitated games like… oh let’s say the Final Fantasy series.

Final Fantasy has changed more in just about every incarnation released than any other series I can really think of. Not that there isn't a lot of crap released, and bad rehashes, but FF isn't really one of 'em. I don't mind a mix of innovation and rehashing. Miyamoto said in an interview once something about the Mario Kart team deciding that the N64 game was pretty good, and making it their goal to just sorta recreate it with more expansive, immersive environments and stuff. I didn't mind the lack of something real new and amazing there. I just enjoyed getting some more Mario Kart. Same with Super Mario World and with Mario Sunshine. Then theres other times with stuff like Metroid Prime, Pikmin, Wario Ware, or even Luigi's Mansion, where they do something different. Those game have all been pretty high risk though. Anyways, rehashes get a bad rap. If you rerelease a game once every 3-5 years that's one thing. If you do it every year <cough>Madden<cough>TigerWoods<cough> then you suck.

I'll admit your Microsoft's XBox being a capital investment, but I don't seriously see a payoff in the long run for Microsoft. I don't understand what investors see in it that has even a potential for eventual success. I think they'll loose a ton on this generation, and in the next, and probably in the one after that. I don't have any idea what their plan is. What if they eventually do get a set-top box in 100% of the living rooms out there? Are they going to then start charging us all billions of Yen once were dependent. Then we'll all switch. Sorta like the IE thing. I don't get it. They make no money off the thing. It's a horrible product. What is there to be proud of? If they ever try to charge for it, everyone will switch. All I can guess is that a whole lot of people see MSN when their internet starts and they must be making a very small part of their huge fortune in advertising.

I guess I never seriously expect the Cube to become #1. I think these analyists are dead set that they have to be to survive though. I'm perfectly happy being number 2, getting the great games, and letting the general public buy their crap with the occasional golden kernel in it. Now we've even got Namco, Sega, and Capcom making some of their best for our console, and releasing their filler crap for the PS2. It's a great time to own a Cube.

[Luciferschild]

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You personally shouldn't be upset- you can play your Gamecube games on your Gamecube. I do agree that the N5 needs to be backwards compatible, though- that was a huge selling point for the PS2.

I am playing my gamecube but I want it to be back-compatible cause I miss some previous gen. games and it's a pain in the butt to unhook gc, hook up n64 and so on and so forth. Plus I like my gc so much that if their next console isn't back-compatible I might just never buy another console. I don't think graphics can get much better anyway, it's all about having a huge library of games now. Oh and my threat about not buying the next console.....I'm bluffing.  

[mouse_clicker]

It's called an A/V switchbox, Lucifer. Don't get me wrong, I think Nintendo will be making a big mistake if their next console isn't backwards compatible, but it's nothing that will affect us Gamecube owners personally.

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it's just a little redundant... it's still good... it's still good

You're right, I just got put off with the repetition. :/

[teckmoney]

The point i was trying to make was that everyone insists on innovation as nintendo's ideal claim to faim. They arent innovating their hardware! Just the looks! The internals of gamecube should have been more than they are. Im not dogging the cube..its great. Too bad when they made the Ati graphics chip ati wasnt AS good as they are now and microsoft already had nvidia. I like nvidia just b/c they are some insanely fast chips. Ati however has gotten good, but its rumored Microsoft is going away from nvidia...so maybe nintendo will snag them. n64 used ati chip...gamecube did...im guessing they will stick to ati if they are smart b/c next ati chip will be awesome. Microsoft has 46 bil $$ supporting it, it isnt going anywhere. Bill gates will accept the losses now to make the xbox 2 magnificent. At the beginning xbox didnt have the best game support...now that bill gates has support, the xbox 2 will launch big time. we all have opinions and view points...dont dog one over another.

[thecubedcanuck]

"I like nvidia just b/c they are some insanely fast chips. Ati however has gotten good, but its rumored Microsoft is going away from nvidia...so maybe nintendo will snag them. "

LOL, I guess that is why my gamecube loads games twice as fast as my x-box does. MS is now using ATI as well, and I am sure Nintendo has no plans on switching to an inferior product.

" Nintendo is able to make their system dirt cheap mainly because it cant be used as a dvd player."

I can get a DVD player that is better than the PS2 and X-box ones for under $50, and I even get the remote for free.

"Nintendo tries to innovate, but they are dumb i think. They ALWAYS want to be different instead of tried and true conformity. Honestly, how can you make a game nowadays...with CG, FMV movies...as well as high resolution game content and SLAM it all on a 1.5 gig disk?"

the last thing I want is a game that forces me to watch 10 minute movies betwwen every stage because they coundnt fill the game  with actual gameplay. If I want to watch a movie I will pop in a dvd THANKS.

"Their sales were first hurt by the *fruity* color when it launched which led many college students and teen - adult gamers away and labeled it strictly a kids toy."

I am 33, and I could give 2 chits what color that darn thing is.

"For a company who recycles SO many of its old franchise games...nintendo should try to focus on older folk like me (21 years old) who used to play the old franchise games when they first started. blah blah blah im tired of typing : )"

I wish I was that smart at 21

[Bloodworth]

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Originally posted by: teckmoney
They arent innovating their hardware! Just the looks! The internals of gamecube should have been more than they are. Im not dogging the cube..its great. Too bad when they made the Ati graphics chip ati wasnt AS good as they are now and microsoft already had nvidia.

This shows that you really don't know a lot about what's going on here.  The GameCube hardware is FAR more innovative than either of the other consoles.  They moved away from designing their system around one all-powerful CPU like the N64 and PS2 are, and went for a balance of architecture that would make it easier to program for and perform better with fewer bottlenecks.  ATI didn't get involved until the end, by buying Art X AFTER they had practically finished the graphics processor.  Both the IBM chip and Art X chip were custom designed from the ground up for the GC with some startling new technologies at the time.  Honestly, I get the feeling that the reason ATI has gotten better is because they've integrated the innovations from Art X in their newer cards.  In addition to this, we have the smaller discs using a CAV drive which drastically improves loading times.  The "limitations" of the disc only effect developers that don't want to optimise their code since there are tools from Factor 5 that allow you to put tons of sound and video into that space.  In addition to this, you have Nintendo's piracy coding, which so far has only been sort of half-hacked through people messing around with Phantasy Star Online.  Considering that PS2 and Xbox were cracked by pirates early on, this was a huge and important hardware advancement for Nintendo.

Comparing these things to MS is a joke.  MS very quickly threw together a high-performance gaming PC out of parts that were little more than optimised versions of products that are already out there.  The ONLY reason the Xbox is technologically better than the GameCube and PS2 is that Microsoft has the money to stuff a bunch of stuff in there and sell it at a price that neither competitor can afford.  

 

[Ian Sane]

"Nintendo tries to innovate, but they are dumb i think. They ALWAYS want to be different instead of tried and true conformity."

While I don't agree that Nintendo should completely conform to the way the competition does things I do agree that they try to be different almost all the time and there's no reason to always do so.  For example look at how Nintendo releases their demo discs.  The "make our loyal fans go to all kinds of trouble for a simple demo" strategy is certainly new and innovative but it's also f*cking retarded.  Sony has found the perfect way to distribute demos so in this case copying them is the best strategy.  Having a smaller memory card and making Player's Choice titles more expensive than the compitition are also different ways to do things that don't make any sense.  I think there has to be a balance of innovation and conformity in order to succeed.  Innovate where it improves but don't do things differently than the competition just to be different.  A good idea is a good idea even if someone else thinks of it first.

[teckmoney]

OK for one...Those cheap DVD players suck, they are no where near the quality of standards id even consider. Ive known people who have bought that apex crap and the motor failed. Secondly. what is wrong with the nforce chipset architecture? its fast, its efficient and it seems to be doing a great job. Kudos for ati incorporating artx or whoever, but nvidia is also incorporating 3dfx technology. PLaystation 2 didnt revolve everything around a central cpu...instead they used multiples which made it difficult to program for. Anyways..its not hardware that makes a great looking game, its the engine chosen and thats what makes things easy to program.  

[Luciferschild]

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It's called an A/V switchbox, Lucifer.  Don't get me wrong, I think Nintendo will be making a big mistake if their next console isn't backwards compatible, but it's nothing that will affect us Gamecube owners personally.

I'm not that sophisticated. But you have a point, it can be done.  

[KDR_11k]

If they include DVD, MP3, etc playback next round, they should make sure they sell another version without all that unnecessary crap. I could barely afford the Cube, the PS2 and XBox were miles (okay, hundreds of Euros) out of my range back then.

I don't know why people complain about the size of the Memorycards, my 251 is about 60% full while holding all my saves from 17 different games. An average file is about 5 blocks. Yes, I heard of games using 59 blocks, but I believe that's just inefficient usage (i.e. devs doing a bad job). Well, the N5 will use modified SD-cards, anyway. And probably WLan and wireless controllers...

[mouse_clicker]

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The ONLY reason the Xbox is technologically better than the GameCube and PS2 is that Microsoft has the money to stuff a bunch of stuff in there and sell it at a price that neither competitor can afford.

Even that may not be so true- no console game has yet to surpass Rebel Strike or Rogue Leader in technical ability, and the latter was a Gamecube launch title made in less than a year. Only one XBox game, I believe, has even matched Roge Leader in sheer number of polygons, and it's only running at 30 fps as opposed to RL's (nearly) locked 60fps. It's possible the XBox is more powerful, but we sure haven't seen it.

And on the subject of extra features, I think a hard drive is vital, and in my opinion is one of the smartest things MS put on the XBox. It doesn't have to be massive, but it should be functional. Additional memory cards should be offered for those who want to transport around a saved game (which isn't anything extra since you were going to be buying a memory card even if the hard drive wasn't there).  It's not that I think memory cards are too small (the 59's sure are, but my 251 is a hulking behemoth), but it's awkward having to constantly switch out all my memory cards, finding which one has what game, and what other one has that custom data- I much prefer the days of yestergeneration when we could save without worrying about space and could be comforted in knowing our save file would always be there when we come back.  

Lucifer: Oh, A/V switchboxes are awesome! I don't know what about them I like so much, but I love them.  

[Deguello]

The Xbox game in question is Rallisport Challenge.

[mouse_clicker]

Indeed- I couldn't remember the name of it when I was typing it. I remembered it later, but I never got around to editting my post. Thanks.

[KDR_11k]

It's pointless to say RL is better than RsC just because it has a higher FPS rate. MTriangles/sec and FPS are both measured over time and independant of each other. 15MT/s means there are 15 million triangles drawn per second, distributed in any way you like over the frames. It could be one frame with 15M, it could be 2 with 7.5M, 30 with 500k or 60 with 250k each. 60FPS means more physics calculations per second, but I doubt RL's physics are THAT complicated.

[Smashman]

This is just what is in my mind and heart!

Nintendo is the true greatness that will live forever!

Just like the old, crappy Atari systems (pre-NES) which were over-flooded with games, I think VG's these days (PS2 and X-Box) will sooner or later go that way, as well- a passing fad! Nintendo, however, will live forever! Sony is just doing what Atari is doing back then, and getting millions of people to buy their system (fads like Pokemon cards, Titanic, Beanie babies, and pogs).

Titanic was a crappy movie! Look at the big phenomenon(although someone will certainly disagree)!

Does anybody else get my point?!?!

[mouse_clicker]

KDR: Maybe that would be true, IF Rogue Leader was polygons and nothing else, which it most certainly is not. It's using every effect the Gamecube has to offer, and even some it wasn't supposed to have, such as bumpmapping. Rallisport Challenge is also using every effect the XBox has to offer, but it's at 30 fps as opposed to RL's twice as fast 60 fps. Rebel Strike further pushes the bar by significantly increasing the number of polygons on screen, plus with some new effects, such as the atmospheric light diffusion they weren't even sure was possible this generation, all while keeping the game at a more steady 60 fps than RL did. My point in mentioning Rallisport Challenge was that it is currently the only XBox to push as many polygons as Rogue Leader with as many effects, but in doing so has to sacrifice its framerate. No other XBox game, not DOA3, not Halo has surpassed Rogue Leader's performance. In fact, the only console game that has, as I've said, is Rebel Strike.  

[KDR_11k]

What I'm trying to tell you is that the FPS are meaningless. The numbers Shadowfox (or what his name was) were triangles per second, not triangles per frame. Since both games have the same number of tris per second, Rallisport Challenge pushes twice as many polies per frame (since it has less frames per second). It's still approximately the same processor load.

[Darc Requiem]

FPS is not meaningless KDR, what ever lead you to that conclusion.  If it were so easy to churn out that type of performance every game would doing it. Also I think the major point Mouse is trying to make, correct me if I'm wrong Mouse, is that according to MS the X-box the most powerful console. In fact according to MS the X-box is 3 times more powerful than its competitors. Given the amount of money it costs MS to manufacture the X-box in comparison to the Gamecube you would think the X-box would have no trouble blowing away the GC. I mean the X-box cost three times as much to manufacture than the GC. The harddrive isn't costing MS the extra $200.

Darc Requiem