Topic: Is nintendo losing its touch????

[Bill Aurion]

Just in case anyone didn't know, EAD doesn't push themselves hard on the graphical side of things on purpose...It never bothered me in the past, it doesn't bother me now, and it sure as hell won't bother me in the future...While I watch all these newbie up-and-comer gamers drooling over such a silly thing as visuals, I concentrate on what makes a game fun...Gameplay mechanics...Now every time I bring this up some smart-aleck says I'm pretending to be a "hardcore gamer" by saying so, which is so far from the truth it isn't even funny...

The problem nowadays is that everyone is spoiled by the technological advances in gaming hardware, and unfortunately, game developers are also blinded by this...More and more you see games that are all glitter, and no substance, yet people still go out and buy them because "they look cool"...It's sad that the casual gamer is feeding the fire to the videogame industry's destruction...I'll end on this note: you should listen to yourselves and think about your gaming habits...Ask yourselves, "What do I enjoy most about my games?"  If you buy games because they are pretty, I pity you, because that is a truely pathetic reason to be a gamer...

[mouse_clicker]

Quote
Just in case anyone didn't know, EAD doesn't push themselves hard on the graphical side of things on purpose...It never bothered me in the past, it doesn't bother me now, and it sure as hell won't bother me in the future...

Exactly! Although I certainly wouldn't mind EAD spending a bit more time on the graphics, it is by no means necessary and I will not like the game any less because of it.

[savanna03]

i agree too, but my point is EAD and other JAPENESE STUDIO is clearly slacking off in the graphics department.  they are not what they used to be.  STARFOX was handled by RARE and if u look at the past interviewed, MIYAMOTO(SP?) even admit to himself that it was all RARE and he just made some input on gameplay.  RETRO STUDIO handled METROID PRIME, even IGN and MIYAMOTO(SP?) admit that RETRO STUDIO was artisticly talented, those were some of the reason they bought the studio in the first place... again MIYAMOTO(SP?) and EAD was only surpervising the gameplay so that it doesn't screw up.  SILICON KNIGHT and DENNIS DYACK was collaborating with some EAD guy about the gameplay in the ETERNAL DARKNESS but never in the GRAPHICS DEPARTMENT... it was all SILICON KNIGHT, DENNIS DYACK was even bragging about all the effect he can do in the GCN but u dont hear EAD brag about what can they do with GCN because their is nothing to brag about other than shorter load times. i admit that WIND WAKER is beautiful but what about SUPER MARIO SUSHINE, what about GENIOUS SONORITY's on POKEMON COLLISEUM, what about HAL LABRATORIES' KIRBY AIR RIDE, what about other NINTENDO JAPANESE STUDIO where everyone seems to slack off in the graphics department... thats what i meant they loose their touch.  


their are 4 keys in creating a succesfull game today.

1) MARKETING - u have to spread the news...
2) GRAPHICS - u need graphics to attract consumer...
3) GAMEPLAY - u need the gameplay to get the gamers hook...
4) STORY - u need  a good plot to intise the gamers to keep going playing...

if u dont believe me, name all the million sellers games that had 3 or all of this things that ive describe.
ill start off with METAL GEAR SOLID, FINAL FANTASY, THE LEGEND OF ZELDA and etc.

[mouse_clicker]

They are not "clearly" slacking off- while I agree some of their games could look better, they ALL look amazingly good.

As for your list, look at the best selling game of all time, Super Mario Bros. 3- its story was almost nonexistant and its graphics weren't that great even for its time period. Or look at SMB 1- same thing, except even less of a story and worse graphics. Zelda isn't a good example, either, because its stories have traditionally been rather thin- Miyamoto himself says the story is usually the last thing he thinks about in a game. You don't NEED graphics to attract consumers- the graphics should heighten their experience while playing the game, but it shouldn't be what entices them to buy it in the first place. I will never not buy a game because it has bad graphics.  

[PIAC]

mouse_clicker and bill, will you join me in my club of crotchety old gamers that don't take kindly to new gamers and their love for all things graphical?

just to echo bill and MC (hammer?)'s comments, brilliant graphics are good, no-one is doubting that, i would rather play a great game with great graphics than a great game with poor graphics, having said that i would MUCH rather pay a great game with pathetic graphics than a pathetic game with great graphics. and here come the inevidable examples, Skies of Arcaida Legends and Phantasy Star Online, two dreamcast ports for the Gamecube, two of my most favorite gamecube games, the reason for this? they are just plain FUN to play. Ocarina of Time vs Wind Waker, i find OoT more fun, because i personally feel the gameplay is superior to WW's and WW looks ALOT better than OoT. same could be said for Yoshi's Island on SNES and Yoshi's Story for n64, i prefered YI to YS for the same reason.

Quote
everyone seems to slack off in the graphics department... thats what i meant they loose their touch.

heh. to lose their touch would be to nolonger make games that are fun. the end.

lets all eat ice cream.

[BigJim]

I don't think Nintendo has lost it's touch, I just think 3rd parties have evolved well enough at what they do to start biting at Nintendo's feet, and Nintendo has been slow to raise the bar higher.  

[mouse_clicker]

There's only a few 3rd parties I think that have begun to approach Nintendo, and none of them have made that change recently except for Ubi Soft.

[Mario]

Quote
Originally posted by: savanna03
i admit that WIND WAKER is beautiful but what about SUPER MARIO SUSHINE, what about GENIOUS SONORITY's on POKEMON COLLISEUM, what about HAL LABRATORIES' KIRBY AIR RIDE, what about other NINTENDO JAPANESE STUDIO where everyone seems to slack off in the graphics department... thats what i meant they loose their touch.  

What about Super Mario Sunshine? That has fantastic graphics, much better than 90% of the other games out there. And Pokemon Colloseum looks great from what i've seen of it, very impressive.

Quote
their are 4 keys in creating a succesfull game today.

1) MARKETING - u have to spread the news...
2) GRAPHICS - u need graphics to attract consumer...
3) GAMEPLAY - u need the gameplay to get the gamers hook...
4) STORY - u need  a good plot to intise the gamers to keep going playing...

if u dont believe me, name all the million sellers games that had 3 or all of this things that ive describe.
ill start off with METAL GEAR SOLID, FINAL FANTASY, THE LEGEND OF ZELDA and etc.

Grand Theft Auto 3. It had no marketing or hype before it came out, it doesn't have impressive graphics (not even for it's time), and had a fairly lame story. It sold millions based on its gameplay and content.

I definately do not think Nintendo are losing their touch. While i agree that there are alot of talented developers out there that are emerging, it seems like Japanese developers are staying as good as they always are, while western companys like EA and Ubi Soft, are getting stronger, better and more talented by the day.

I think Nintendo need to expand themselves out a bit more. Their games this gen, while i think they are better, they just dont seem to have that massive Nintendo polish to them, and not enough time was spent developing them. I could be way off the mark, because i have no idea how much money, effort and time Nintendo put into each seperate game, but i do think that their latest games could be better.

Back in the N64 days, there were LOTS of delays, but that led to better products. This gen, there has been hardly any delays, and as a result the games seem to lacking something. I wish Nintendo had delayed Zelda: TWW, but apparently Miyamoto just had to get it out in Japan before christmas last year. Imagine if it had been in develepment longer, we would still end up getting the game, and it would be even more awesome than it already is.

Pikmin 2 was apparently delayed because Nintendo wanted to make a better product for us gamers, which makes me put my happy hat on and smile. I believe Nintendo should delay their games if neccesary, but it seems this gen they are too busy thinking about timing, and where to fill gaps in their release schedule in order to gain more sales, and money seems to be more important to them than gamers. I think... i dont really know anything for sure, none of us know what goes on down at Nintendo. Meh, i hope that all made sense and i got my point across... [/rant that came from nowhere]

[Darc Requiem]

Quote
Originally posted by: Shadow Link

Quote
Originally posted by: Darc Requiem

Quote
Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
Look at Wind Waker! Look at Metroid Prime! Look at Eternal Darkness! Look at Starfox Adventures! Look at F-Zero GX! Nintendo IS pushing the Gamecube to the limits.

While Wind Waker was impressive the other three games you listed weren't by Nintendo. Silicon Knights produced ED, Rare was responsible for SFA, and Sega's AV was responsible for F-Zero. When it comes to game produces by EAD Nintendo has disappointed IMO. The best games for Gamecube aren't by EAD on the GC. My favorite GC games aren't by EAD. Thats a first for me when it comes to a Nintendo console. With as many of the the Big N's franchises farmed out for GC. I was expected games from EAD that impressed none of them did. Wind Waker was good but it was a cell shaded Ocarina of Time. Super Mario Sunshine wasn't a bad game by any means and the high difficulty was a throw back to older Nintendo games but it didn't wow me. There hasn't been on GC game from Nintendo's EAD that has blown me away on Gamecube most EAD games seemed rushed to me. Given the fact that EAD wasn't under the strain it was during the N64 era I'm quite disappointed.

Darc Requiem

Firstly Eternal Darkness, Starfox, Metroid and F-Zero have all had input from Nintendo and are Designed for the Nintendo GameCube.  They are all first party Nintendo games which Nintendo have assisted in creating.


As for Zelda im not even going to begin with how patetic your statement was there,  a cel* shaded ocarina of time? I dont think so.

Whilst EAD's games havent been pushing the GameCube to its limits most of the games EAD create dont need to.  I mean look at Mario Sunshine is it suposed to be realistic? Nope so how are you going to make it push the cube to the limits.  Sure they could have done some texture work but its not worth it for somthing so insignificant. Zelda the Wind Waker in my opinion pushes the GameCube when you consider that there is no Load times and it loads those huge worlds and ocean etc.  Zelda the Wind Waker is easilly the best Cel shaded game ive seen to date.  

In my opinion there honestly hasnt been any EAD game that could greatly benefit from pushing the Cube to its limits.  There is also time constrants that may hinder EAD's efforts of really polishing a game.  Companies like Rareware and Retro arent working on as many games as EAD.

EAD had alot of Input on games like Metroid Prime.  The Samus model in Metroid Prime was created with the assitance of EAD.  EAD did the music.  And EAD assisted with the game design.

grrr DONT diss EAD.

First of all I'm not "dissing" EAD. I'm stating that in my opinion EAD hasn't been producing the quality of games they are known for. I've owned every Nintendo console and every generation I've played at least two or three EAD titles that were amazing. I haven't felt that about any EAD games on Gamecube. EAD games have still been good to great on GC, that said they haven't been the best games on GC to me.

You said that there hasn't been a EAD game that could greatly benefit from pushing the Cube to its limits. I agree with you to a certain extent. As Nintendo gamers graphics aren't as big of a deal to us. If EAD titles pushed the Cube to its limits they would be more likely to catch the eye of mainstream gamers. Nintendo needs to expand their audience so they're games get more exposure outside of us hard core fans. Yes EAD was a good influence on Metroid Prime's design but thats to be expected. MP was the first Metroid game in 8 years, Nintendo couldn't afford to disappointed and they didn't.

As for my statement of about Wind Waker being a Cel-Shaded Ocarina of Time it was in my opinion. The gameplay was near identical with exception of the aquatic travel. Thats how I felt when I played Wind Waker. My statement isn't pathetic just because it doesn't conform to your opinion. My opinion differs from your all you had to say is I don't agree with your statement because...and list why you disagree. Most people I know like Zelda 1 better than Zelda 2 I don't. I prefer Zelda 2. I don't call people that prefer Zelda 1 pathetic. They are entitled to their opinion.

Darc Requiem

[savanna03]

for every rules, there is always an exception. and i dont believe that GRAND THEFT AUTO was an exception.  it applies to 3 of my 4 rules.  GAMEPLAY is solid and the GRAPHICS is sub-par.  they have an excellent MARKETING because it was free due to the controversy they cause while the STORY, was typical GANGSTER plot which most people seems to be interested than saving a princess.

as for SUPER MARIO BROS. 3, i disagree with u... the GRAPHICS was advance for its time... tell me that the GRAPHICS wasn't good compare to SUPER MARIO BROS. 1 and 2.  if u said no, i think ur lying.  3 out of 4,  MARKETING, GRAPHICS and GAMEPLAY.  as for SUPER MONKEY BALL, i dont know... if u compared to part 2, it didn't sell quite good compared to the original, maybe they just fluke it during launch.  1 out of 4, GAMEPLAY and beside i didn't think that SMB even reach a million seller.

oh about MIYAMOTO said about the story was the last thing in his mind... well i found an irony with that.  remember that TLC program about the HISTORY OF VIDEOGAME... MIYAMOTO part came up.  his first game was DONKEY KONG and do u know what he said upon making his game.  he wanted to make things different from other arcade game back then.  he said he wanted to have a STORY in it about a jump man trying to save his girlfriend from this big ape.  i say take all the good things from it rather than just taking one.  evolve the STORY not just the GAMEPLAY.

i would like to say that im not this NEW GENERATION  of gamers... i been playing NINTENDO games since it was original launch.  i pick GAMEPLAY over GRAPHICS anytime.  but my only concern is that NINTENDO isn't evolving with the game industry and i believe that is why they are lagging behind in N64 and GCN.  i have to agree with ED FRIES(check the new EGM interview) when he critize the BIG N.  they still think that ANALOGE is still better while they didn't realize that DIGITAL is far superior.

 

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Play Halo with a d-pad.

D'OH!

[Anbesol]

play halo with a d-pad?  wtf?!

okay, who made that "silicon knights made ED, sega made F-Zero" comment has some brain deficiencies.  the whole development of ed was overseen, supervised by nintendo.

hmm...  nintendo losing their touch?  please!  sure they keep pummelling out great games year after year, but, i think theyre "losing their touch"...  

wtf did that come from?

[Inkwell]

Personally I think "The Big N" has lost their touch...just stating my opinion. Well in this generation it seems that Nintendo is not really offering anything that they haven't done before except for a few games. Nothing has really excited me in the longest which is disappointing esp. from Nintendo, its seems like the third parties are doing all the interesting stuff. You might not think so but I don't care.

Anyway, this "gameplay over graphics" is so stupid in my opinion. I see it like this...what is the point of making a new system that is capable of offering the graphics, the gameplay, and more but you just continue to focus on "better gameplay". That is just BS, why can't we have "gameplay and the graphics". Is there a problem in doing a game that has outstanding graphics and outstanding gameplay without dilluting the other, is it that hard? Isn't that the point of making a new system that can easily offer both  gameplay and graphics to the consumer.  

[ghostVi]

Sooooooo........ what exactly are you missing Inkwell, graphics or gameplay? I don't think it's the former (N's first party games delivered some of the best graphics this gen) Just trying to read and understand your post... it turns out "better gameplay" is not that much of BS, now isn't it?

Anyway. I personally wasn't there watching Nintendo all the previous generations, just had some fun on friends' GB / SNES with some Mario, Mario Kart and Zelda. I got fond of them by playing Metroid Prime and Zelda: The Wind Waker, so i guess - NO Nintendo didn't loose their touch IMO, on the contrary, they got better.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Nintendo didn't lose its touch.

In fact, they touch much more often, in many more places.

[nolimit19]

in a semi related topic, i saw a pretty funny nintendo comercial at the movie theater the other day. it was all these kids checking their watches, and then school gets out, and thousands of kids just start running...they do all these cool moves and make it to video game store...blablabla. it was cool though, and i think nintendo is doing a pretty decent job right now (and a better job then they were doing this time last year) at not losing touch.

[Ian Sane]

"Many modern EAD games aren't being directed by Miyamoto-sensei, either."

Good point.  I think Pikmin is the only Cube game Miyamoto himself as directed and sure enough it's the only EAD game that really wowed me.  All the other ones lacked that same magical feel.  I think they're spreading Miyamoto thin and would probably be better off if they had him dedicate himself to one or two titles at a time instead of supervising over everything.  I'd rather see a slight dip in the quality of Nintendo's other games if it meant a better Mario and Zelda.

Though I haven't been as impressed with Nintendo this generation as I have in the past I don't think they've lost their touch just yet.  Retro Studios, Silicon Knights, HAL (Smash Bros makes up for Kirby Air Ride), & Intelligent Systems (okay they're GBA but they're still Nintendo) have all been great.  EAD is the only one to seemingly "lose their touch" and that's because of the Miyamoto issue I mentioned above.

I think the real problem is that a lot of the gameplay experiences that were exclusive to the N64 are no longer exclusive to the Gamecube so it doesn't seem as relevant and gives the illusion that Nintendo has lost it.  During the 32/64 bit generation the N64 was for the most part the only choice if you liked platformers, console first-person-shooters, wrestling games, multiplayer games, and Zelda.  That's not the case with the Gamecube.

The PS2 now has more exclusive platformers than the Cube.  When you've got Jak & Daxter, Sly Cooper, and Ratchet & Clank, there's not as much of a desire or need for Mario.  Plus without Rare Mario is the only exclusive platformer on the console.  I don't think there are any exclusive FPS games on the Cube.  You could argue Metroid Prime but that certainly doesn't play like a traditional FPS.  Rare is gone so there's no more Goldeneye or PD.  Halo is the FPS to get and the Xbox is the FPS console to get.  Wrestling games in general now almost always suck and the Cube seems to always get the worst of the WWE games.  The Cube isn't the only console with four controllers anymore so multiplayer games are also on Xbox.  Plus online play is a new way to play multiplayer console games and it's not on Gamecube.  Zelda remains but that alone isn't enough.

What Nintendo really has to do to get people talking about them again and to silence is the critics is to make something new that isn't available on the other consoles.  GTA3 did this for the PS2 and that's partially why that console has maintained such a lead.  Metroid Prime and Pikmin were good examples of something amazing that's only available on the Cube but there needs to be more than that.  Nintendo can "regain their touch" if the N5 launches with something that is not available anywhere else.

[Fish]

Actually Miyamoto has not directed game since Super Mario 64. Not even OoT was his direction. Pikmin was directed by Masamichi Abe and Shigefumi Hino.

[Ian Sane]

You're right.  He didn't direct Pikmin.  However he did direct Ocarina of Time.  Check out http://www.miyamotoshrine.com/games/n64/ocarina/ where he's listed as Producer/Director.

[Fish]

I have to say I must disagree with that source. Once I found the list of all EAD games and the person(s) who directed it. OoT's director were Yoichi Yamada and Toru Osawa. Of course it might be incorrect, but I trust this list, never let me down before.

*EDITED*, misspelled Yamada as Yamda, probably misspelled lot of other stuff too.

 

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Whatever his title/position, it's not hard to see which games Miyamoto-sensei did have significant creative involvement in.  Even as a supervising producer, not a director, he can still make a great impact on the game(s) because his teams will surely listen to him, though of course he shouldn't be intervening so much given his position in the first place.  A number of recent EAD titles have shown a departure from his distinct touch; a result of him "willingly" leaving these projects in the hands of his disciples.

Though these days he seems to be a diplomat of sorts visiting Nintendo dev houses and 3rd parties.

[Bill Aurion]

In that last interview with him, he said he was overlooking about a dozen titles...I mean, there's only so much time he can spend with each one...