Author Topic: Patriotism  (Read 17359 times)

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Offline Matrix

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RE:Patriotism
« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2003, 08:09:09 PM »
It is unlikely the Arrow was not surpressed by the US government. Price and practicality are probably the more likely killers of the Arrow. Producing it would have just been way to costly for Canda, and any other country.

Also, it's doubtful that the Arrow would have made Canada a super-power. Missiles were the way of the future, which is one of the main reason the Arrow ran out of steam.

Yeah, it's a nice dream to think Canada could become a Super Power with the Arrow, and everything is all America's fault-blah-blah, but it's just that. A dream.

Edit: Very interesting link. Read 3 and 4. It's not based around conspiracy theories, which is what most Arrow stuff in the media is.
http://www.vectorsite.net/avarrow.html

Of course, you're free to believe what you like. I'm not one for arguing political stuff, since it'll only get me upset. I probably shouldn't even have posted.  

Offline Grey Ninja

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RE: Patriotism
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2003, 08:53:05 PM »
Quote

Also, it's doubtful that the Arrow would have made Canada a super-power. Missiles were the way of the future, which is one of the main reason the Arrow ran out of steam.


The simple thought that SAM launchers could ever replace manned fighters just strikes me as ridiculous.  There will always be a need for capable fighters.  That was proven decades later when aircraft such as the F-15, F-16, and F-18 came into service... with many of the same characteristics as the Arrow I might add.  Similar flight ceilings, and performance characteristics for example.

Quote

Price and practicality are probably the more likely killers of the Arrow. Producing it would have just been way to costly for Canda, and any other country.


The costs which the Diefenbaker government quoted were based on the costs of the prototypes.  The production model would have been MUCH cheaper.  The estimated cost of the Arrow would have been about $20 Million, which I think is pretty reasonable.  Our currency has devalued greatly since that time, but I still think that's a pretty fair price.  More than you might expect for an aircraft of the time, but it truly wasn't an aircraft of its time.

Quote

(From the link you provided)
On 20 February 1959, Prime Minister Diefenbaker cancelled the CF-105, with the order taking effect immediately. The prototype Arrows had completed 66 flights, for a total of 70 hours of flying time. The first Mark 2 prototype was almost ready for flight tests, with four more Mark 2s virtually complete. All the Arrows built or in production were scrapped, and design documentation and production tooling was generally disposed of, apparently as a security measure. None of the Iroquois-powered Mark 2s ever flew.


That doesn't sound a little dumb to you?  It's from things like this that the conspiracy theories come from.  The Canadian government really wasn't justified in doing this, and it's pretty much undeniable that it cost Canada a great deal.  It laid off almost 20,000 people, and Canada had contracts to deliver Iroquois Engines to France for use in their Mirage fighters that was cancelled as well, as a result of the loss of the Arrow.  The profits of the sale of the engines would have cut a great deal of price off of the Arrow.

And no, I don't blame the US.  I blame the stupidity of the Canadian government.
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Offline Shift Key

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RE:Patriotism
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2003, 11:56:53 PM »
Grey Ninja: Three words - Coopers Pale Ale.
It's an Aussie beer that you can find in some pubs in the USA. Give it a go if you come across it.
As for Canadian beers, i haven't come across any here, yet.
We've got "Canadian Club" bourbon (i think) and that's not bad.

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Offline Termin8Anakin

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RE: Patriotism
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2003, 01:21:41 AM »
I love being so laid back don't you?
hehehe.
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Offline nolimit19

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RE:Patriotism
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2003, 07:43:58 PM »
yea i realize that Switzerland isnt perfect, but i still think it has the best foreign policy...i understand why america does do some things it does, but i think over all, if america just got out of everyones back yard and stopped taxing the crap out of everything, we would be better off. i am taking a plolitical science course this semester and a really interesting topic came up. we always think of midevil times when the kings taxed the crap out of the people right?? well according to my professor, americans get taxed much more, percentage wise, then they did. about 40 percent of our total income goes to income tax, social security, sales tax, property tax, death tax, ect. the point is our government gets way more involved in our lives then they should. thats 2/5ths of our money that we never see and that is being given to some drug addict that doesnt have a job. basically 2 days of the week we work for the government...if you look at it like that you cant be happy with the current policy our government takes on taxes...and its not bush or clinton or any one guy you can blame...its the system....to me america is far to left...giving money to all these people who havent earned it. medicare, medicaid and social security all need to go in my opinion...but anyways im off topic, i am proud to be an american and i wouldnt live anywhere else.....unless i absolutely had to. obviously its not perfect, but it is a good place to live, but it would have been better if the liberals didnt take over. and yea i know why everyone hates the us, and that was my point...i understand why...it goes deeper then just being a super power, its the flexing of the power, not just militarily, but politically and economically as well.

and sorry i realize everyone here isnt from america, but when i say "our country" i mean the us...just to clear that up.
A thing moderately good is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice.

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Offline Grey Ninja

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RE: Patriotism
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2003, 08:05:46 PM »
The difference between now and medieval times nolimit is that nowdays people actually make money.  More than enough to live comfortably.  If you can't live comfortably, you get your taxes back, and don't pay the government anything.  It's really that simple.  In medieval times, people barely made enough to feed and cloth themselves, and they had to pay a ridiculous amount to their rulers.

Just some food for thought.
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Offline Ocarina Blue

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RE: Patriotism
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2003, 08:56:30 PM »
I see the only real difference as more efficent production procedures. Most people still go through life working most of the time, and can retire nicely if they're lucky. While some of your money may be given to people who don;t try to get work, there are many people who try but can't find work aswell who do not get tax.
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Offline Grey Ninja

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RE: Patriotism
« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2003, 08:58:46 PM »
Yes, but the number of people starving to death has drastically reduced.
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Offline Ocarina Blue

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RE: Patriotism
« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2003, 09:03:52 PM »
Sorry, that's what I meant to say through the more efficent production procedures. That was worded pretty poorly.
Om mani padme hum.

Offline RABicle

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RE:Patriotism
« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2003, 01:20:02 AM »
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Originally posted by: nolimit19
...and its not bush or clinton or any one guy you can blame...its the system....to me america is far to left...giving money to all these people who havent earned it. medicare, medicaid and social security all need to go in my opinion...

Left? IMO, if America was any further to the right it would be bordering on Facism.
I think my avatar sums up my political position.

Actually on a semi related note, Lenin looked at Australia, which was the most socialist country in the world at the time, when seting up communist Russia.
Australia is now only slightly left, but I say we need more leftness!

Um, yeah where was I? Oh yeah i dont like patriotism much, I really dont like Australia too much. Proabbly the proudest I've ever felt being Australian was when 4 men fell over to give Steve Brabury the gold of the Mens 1000m ice skating last year. Oh it was magical.
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Offline Shift Key

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RE:Patriotism
« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2003, 04:21:59 AM »
Steven Bradbury - that guy is now the classical Aussie athlete!
And I'd say my proudest moment to be an Aussie is the AFL Grand Final - best sporting day on the calendar. Followed closely by Bathurst.

And Australia is among the highest taxed countries in the world. Up yours little Johnnie!
Luckily I don't work enough hours to get majorly taxed.
I guess that's another reason why the dole is so popular. Meh.

Offline RABicle

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RE: Patriotism
« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2003, 02:01:12 AM »
Yeah average taxation is 50% here, which for the lousy mathmeticians is more than your easy going 40% in America.
The dole is important though, one of the most important parts of any economy. Can you imagine what would happen is the dole and other unemployment benefits were taken away? crime would surge upwards as people would be forced into crime to live, the moral of the lower class would drop, because suddenly all the people on the dole wont have any money then a lot less people will be participating in the countries economy, so people would be spending less, making business and commerce drop, in an effort to maintain profits business would have to sack employees, putting more people out of work.
Basically it would all end in a major depression.

And what are you crapping on about crappy local music? Australian music is great.
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Offline Shift Key

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RE:Patriotism
« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2003, 03:00:32 AM »
*points at self* ME? WHAT?
I'm a huge fan of Aussie music.

Offline PIAC

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RE: Patriotism
« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2003, 03:08:48 AM »
frenzal rhomb, area 7, bodyjar etc etc are all great! take THAT rest of the world.

Offline nolimit19

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RE:Patriotism
« Reply #39 on: September 24, 2003, 07:08:28 PM »
yea dont give me that....we have thousands of illegal immigrants that seem to find jobs without any problem at all. the problem isnt a lack of jobs....its that there arent jobs that people want. and for that, i dont htink anyone should be getting hand outs. im all for everyone being able to get the basic things in life like...education, food, housing, health care....but i dont think the way to do that is by just giving them to people...for instance....a "universal health care system". what makes america what it is, is its competition. if we just start giving things away....no one will compete and we will just have  a bunch of lazy commies not willing to work. we have all seen the horror stories of women on welfare having more babies on purpose so they can get more money. dont get me wrong i think that people should give back the comunity, i just dont think they should be forced to if they dont want to. and let me remind you. no one have ever starved to death in america because they couldnt afford food. if you need something that bad and cant pay for it, there are plenty of people that would help/doctors that would provide free health care. there are countless organizations in america that are here for humanitarian benifit, and i dont htink that it is necessary to have the government pay for all these things. the problem of course is that people dont wnat ot work for health care or for their own retirement...they want other people to do it for them, so certain politicians take up these things and pass them with the front that its for the best of man kind. it will catch up sooner or later. i am some what of a classic liberal...or a libertarian....the less government the better. not this big brother crap. absolute power corrupts absolutely.  
A thing moderately good is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice.

Thomas Paine

Offline manunited4eva22

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RE:Patriotism
« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2003, 01:16:08 PM »
Uhh, are you retarded? Have you heard of the depression?  

The only reason those programs were set up are for the same reasons as universal health care; competition is good but we don't want to kill people because it gets too intense...

Offline nolimit19

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RE:Patriotism
« Reply #41 on: September 26, 2003, 04:44:56 PM »
i understand why those things were created, but they are not necesary now. the standard of living and the amount of money in the us economy is much better now(even in this recession). i understand that people did not have jobs and couldnt afford retirement....that is out dated now... social security is going to fail...we all know that. its a fact. the only reason it ever worked was because of the baby boom. there were all these young workers paying a little for social security. now the population numbers have leveled off and its only a matter of time before it colapses.  it should be abolished. not right away mind you. the government should just assign a cut off date for certain age. maybe health care benifits for the old and poor are good ideas(medicare and mediaid) but a universal medical system is strait socialism. free hand outs go against everything america stands for. working hard and having it pay off. and yes people starved in the great depression, i wasnt thinking that far back, so my bad. however, in the current situation we are in, no one starves to death unless it is self-enduced. there are plenty of homeless and unemployed now, but no one is starving. america is very different from what it was during the depression. america produces enough food to feed the world like 3 times over. we live in a time where poor people are fat are rich people are healthy/muscular....there is no worry of people starving to death. and many argue that the only reason anyone is homeless, is because they are crazy/vietnam vets/drug addicts. i dont think we will have to worry about that though. we are seeing the rise of conservatives in recent years.

to change the topic though...who do you guys think will win the democratic nomination?
A thing moderately good is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice.

Thomas Paine

Offline Ms.Pikmin

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RE:Patriotism
« Reply #42 on: September 26, 2003, 06:19:20 PM »
nolimit, you are heartless and ignorant.  I cannot believe you would say that there are no starving people in this country unless it is self inflicted.  There are POOR families that cannot afford enough food to give their children a decent full meal.  Maybe we don't have infomercials with dirty naked crying children but there ARE hungry people here.  Yes, we have enough food to feed everybody, but that doesn't mean everybody gets it.  

As far as healthcare, not everyone gets it or can afford it.  Many employers get around giving their employees benefits by only hiring part time workers.  If a low wage worker can get benefits, a problem is also that an employer does not have to cover that employees family.  Medical insurance is expensive and many people cannot afford it on their own.  

Why don't you get out of whatever suburb you live in and go see what is really happening out there?  It's really easy to sit back and say that people should get it together and not allow poverty to happen to them, but not everyone can help themselves.  I really hope that "conservatives" like you don't wind up running this country.  Poor people would be in a lot of trouble, having someone like you saying their poverty doesn't even really exist.  

Offline RABicle

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RE: Patriotism
« Reply #43 on: September 27, 2003, 03:40:37 AM »
And if you cut those unemployment benefits then people WOULD start starving to death.

I have a friend at school, her mum is on the dole (unemployment benefit) they live in a pretty dodgy little house in a small town. her mum works her arse off applying for at least 5 jobs every week. She was ounce the local member of state parliment for the areafor the labour (left wing) party. Conservatives voted her out.

Let's see if it wasn't for the unemployment benefit introduced by her political party decades ago then she would've been forced into a  life of crime to feed and dress herself and my friend because of a decision made by one of the partys ministers that caused voters to vote her out.
Does that sound fair?
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Offline nolimit19

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RE:Patriotism
« Reply #44 on: September 28, 2003, 07:29:31 PM »
i want to see someone in america that starved to death last year. i never said that people werent hungery or that poverty doesnt exist. i said people arent starving to death(meaning everyone has what it takes to survive in the us). i have gone out to feed the homeless several times. i personally love helping people that are less fortunate than i. the thing is, if it comes down to it, you can get the basic essentials in america in a legit way without help from anyone. funny how millions of illegal immigrants can get on their own two feet with a little elbow greese. they risk death, imprisonment, and deportation by coming here and putting it all on the line. most illegals dont resort to crime because they dont want to be sent back to where they came from. like i said its not a lack of jobs, its a lack of desire. i cant speak for any country but america, but if you have it bad enough that you cant take care of yourself, either you messed up, or you are in the very small minority that have no control over a long list of things that happened in their life. for instance....maybe a girl gets raped and has a baby, and her parents throw her out of the house cuz they thing she is a whore. that is sad and not selfinflicted. or maybe you are insane because you served in vietnam. again not your fault. maybe you were born with a diablity and your parents are too poor too support you. again, sad and something that should be addressed. however, maybe you are a fat pos that lives in a trailer and has babies all day and collects on social security and medicare. that my friend is strait robbery. thats why i said...health care for the poor and elderly...although IDEALY not the best thing, may be ok. but social security and just handing money over to poor people. absolutely rediculous. i live in phoenix, and there are tons of illegals here that make a decent honest living. i am a prime example of someone who needs a job, but isnt willing to go and mow lawns or do yard work, or whatever else it is that needs to be done. however if i was is dire need of supporting myself, i wouldnt go the the government to get money, i would quit school and get myself a job. and let me tell you, you never see illegals begging for money, they are begging for jobs, and they obviously usually get them because they keep coming. if you want a job and the ability to suport yourself that bad, in america, you can do it. you may not live like a king, and you may need to share a room with someone...you may have to use public transit or a bike...hell you may even have to wear the same clothes a few days in a row, but you can survive. again its not that i dont feel bad for people in worse shape then i, its just that i dont htink that BIG BROTHER should force you to pay for someone elses stuff. in america there are plenty of opertunities for everyone. and the reason i feel so strongly about this is because medicare, medicaid and social secuity are our 3 biggest things on the budget. we pay too many taxes. simple as that. you want to make money. do it the way everyone else does it WORK FOR IT!
A thing moderately good is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice.

Thomas Paine

Offline Hostile Creation

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RE:Patriotism
« Reply #45 on: September 29, 2003, 04:22:01 PM »
If you starve to death in America, you are an idiot.  We practically have food sitting on the street, waiting to be eaten.  99 cent hamburgers is enough to keep anyone alive, and they're easy to get. . . and you can steal stuff if you can't afford it. . .

And yeah, I'm cruel and heartless, but most people that are actively living, literally, on the street, are gutless cowards that got there by their own ignorance.  They could work at a frickin McDonalds, or a factory or something, the ones that don't are just drunken fools.

No, our poverty is like paradise compared to most place. . . and I don't care much about those places either, so there is little point in me talking any more.  Time to take your hits out on me.  Have fun.
HC: Honourary Aussie<BR>Originally posted by: ThePerm<BR>
YOUR IWATA AVATAR LOOKS LIKE A REAL HOSTILE CREATION!!!!!<BR><BR>only someone with leoperd print sheets could produce such an image!!!<BR>

Offline Bill Aurion

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RE:Patriotism
« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2003, 05:14:02 PM »
I see that this has become a real hardcore government debate...Though I can't stand the subject of government, I just have to step in.  I consider myself a libertarian(that is, I am more conservative when it comes to economic issues, and more liberal when it comes to social issues).  I believe welfare is important, but there has to be a cutoff point.  By the next generation it's a known fact that the social security budget will run out...What's to do then?  I'm sick of lazy asses not doing work and getting social security when there are those that actually need and deserve it.  You hear about the story about the guy who got social security for a cut pinky finger?  It's absolutely ridiculous what the percentage of those who get social security payments are actually disabled, or have not.  Our system of government is scaring me more and more as the debt gets higher and higher, and sooner or later it's just gonna end, and lots of people are going to suffer.  Someone has to set up a way of limiting SS and Welfare to those that actually need it if there is to be a decrease in "absolute poverty."

Just my two cents...

(Though I'll be of age to vote early next year, I WILL NOT vote...Bush has just gotten incompetent, and every single one of the Democratic candidates is a complete moron...Where are the good candidates!?)  
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Offline nolimit19

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RE:Patriotism
« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2003, 06:07:30 PM »
this next presidential election will be my first one to vote in....and unfortunately i am not excited about any of the canidates either. i will probably vote for bush because i rather die then have another democrat in the white house.  this Wesley Clark isnt looking too bad. i still have to see who stands for what. but yea...you are a moron or lost in the wilderness if you starve to death in america.
A thing moderately good is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice.

Thomas Paine

Offline RABicle

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RE: Patriotism
« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2003, 11:18:20 PM »
Voting is compulsary in Australia, thats proper democracy or do you guys have the 'freedom' to not vote or something?

I think thats pretty godman useless of Hostile Creations for not caring about other countries.
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Offline Hostile Creation

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RE:Patriotism
« Reply #49 on: September 30, 2003, 05:50:18 PM »
Useless, eh?  You come tell me that when you're doing something for those countries, okay RABicle?

And even when you do, if you do, I'll still live my middle to upper class, comfortable life, and just wish them the best of my luck.  Because really, that's all I can give them that'll do any good.  I wouldn't mind if everyone is happy, but no one seems to want to be happy.  And that's their decision to make, not mine. . . and I can't help change that, and really, you shouldn't try either.  But I'm not going to even try to change you, because that's not the way I work, and I would doubtlessly fail anyway.  Anyway, I wish you, at least, the best of luck.
HC: Honourary Aussie<BR>Originally posted by: ThePerm<BR>
YOUR IWATA AVATAR LOOKS LIKE A REAL HOSTILE CREATION!!!!!<BR><BR>only someone with leoperd print sheets could produce such an image!!!<BR>