Author Topic: Backwards Compatibility - Good or Bad?  (Read 16590 times)

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Offline Louieturkey

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Re: Backwards Compatibility - Good or Bad?
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2013, 06:14:02 PM »
It makes you wonder if anyone has ever gone to Nintendo and asked to license their old tech to be able to sell a retro console of their own.  If I had the money, I'd love to look into what they'd say about that.  You could sell an officially licensed NES/SNES/N64 3 in 1 system.

Offline lolmonade

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Re: Backwards Compatibility - Good or Bad?
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2013, 08:57:42 AM »
Backwards compatibility is great for consumers, bad for console makers. 
 
There's a level of expectation that's built up over time when you continually offer something over several console generations.  Sony is the culprit of starting the expectation of backwards compatibility with the Playstation 2, but it was a great value proposition to consumers at the time: "Hey, not only can you play all these awesome new games we'll have coming out eventually, but you can catch up on the games you may have missed out last generation if you made the mistake of not buying our first console!". 
 
They of course offered backwards compatibility for PS1 AND PS2 games in the PS3 initially, but caused a big uproar when it was revealed that the PS2 backwards compatibility would be cut in an effort to make the PS3 more price competitive.
 
Nintendo followed suit with the Wii and the Wii U, and they must believe it's a good enough value proposition to feature it (until they decide to remove the hardware to cut costs).  For the Wii, it made sense to include the backwards compatibility for the Gamecube as a value addition considering it wasn't near the capability of the PS3 & Xbox 360.  It makes sense for nintendo to include backwards compatibility in the Wii U, not only because it uses the same controllers, but if you look at any store right now, there are more Wii games than Wii U games, many of them Nintendo titles.  Also, Nintendo has largely played on consumers sense of nostalgia with their franchises, which is why ways to play classic titles like the virtual console have been such staples of their product offering as of late.
 
I think streaming service backwards-compatibility may work better in Sony's favor in the long run.  It makes internet connection the only big bottleneck.

Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Backwards Compatibility - Good or Bad?
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2013, 03:28:30 PM »
The main difference for Nintendo is their hardware inherently supports backwards compatibility, like the PC. The Wii's basically an overclocked GameCube, and the Wii U uses an evolution of the same stuff. The only reason the later Wii models and the Wii U aren't compatible with GameCube games is the cost of keeping in the controller/memory card ports. The DS and 3DS continued the same line of hardware as the GBA. With Sony and Microsoft it's a lot harder to include it because of how drastically their hardware changes from generation to generation.
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Offline dack25

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Re: Backwards Compatibility - Good or Bad?
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2013, 12:40:40 AM »
BC is pretty cool but now that I think about it I don't really use it much for my 360 when I didn't buy the original Xbox. Actually part of the reasons why I initially chose a 360 over the PS3 was because I wouldn't be able to use all my old PS2 games on it. Looking back at it, it was a silly reason and I ended up trading it in to get more games for 360 off the bat. Since I've had a PS3 I've probably bought three HD collections and a few other digital versions of older games that might have saved me a couple of dollars here and there. For the Wii though, being a GCN owner it is convenient knowing I don't have to hook up the older system and the controllers still serve a purpose.

Offline rlse9

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Re: Backwards Compatibility - Good or Bad?
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2013, 10:14:36 AM »
Backwards Compatibility is one of those things that always seemed great in theory to me but that I've rarely actually put to use.  After buying a DS (and not having owned a GBA) I bought a total of 2 GBA games and played little of either.  Having a considerable amount of Gamecube games, including a couple I don't think I ever even played, the only Gamecube game I've really played on my Wii was finally beating Wind Waker.  In theory, I think it's something I would use, but in practice whenever I sit down to play a game (or when I'm out buying a game) I always choose something for the newer system.

I can see Backwards Compatibility being good for Nintendo, had they been able to attract people to the Wii U that didn't own a Wii (probably not many of those out there in this case, but maybe more true with Wii/Gamecube).  With a lack of games out there for Wii U currently, I'd think there would be people buying Super Mario Galaxy, Skyward Sword, etc. since they're such great games and still easy to find in stores.  The problem for developers isn't gamers choosing older games over newer games, it's Nintendo system overs choosing Nintendo games (new or old) over 3rd party games.

Offline LABcrab

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Re: Backwards Compatibility - Good or Bad?
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2013, 02:32:48 PM »
Backwards compatibility is of great importance to me, and makes me want to purchase a Nintendo system.

First, with the Game Boy Advance, friends gave me many Game Boy games: Super Mario Land, Tetris, Baseball and so on.  They (as well as Game Boy Color) were still sold and rented in stores, making it easier for Nintendo to clear their inventory by making the Game Boy Advance compatible with nearly all non-Advance games.  Furthermore, it was easier to link games like Pokémon and Tetris with friends.  The great amount of games and accessories compatible with the Game Boy Advance increased Nintendo sales and rentals.

The Wii is also a great example of this.  i had Donkey Konga, Donkey Kong Jungle Beat, F-Zero GX, Luigi's Mansion and many other games for the GameCube.  It's no longer necessary to keep the GameCube around for these games if the Wii is compatible with them.  Therefore, the GC can be sold or traded in at the store.  Even better, GameCube controllers can be used for the Virtual Console's many games, including titles from the NES, SNES, Nintendo 64 and even Sega games.  Those GameCube controllers sure get a lot of value!  It makes me wonder why Nintendo stopped manufacturing them so soon.  As for the WaveBird wireless controller, it was a great product but given little chance to live, even if Nintendo could still sell them now.

Lastly, the 3DS being compatible with DS games is a great feature to have.  It's also better implemented, unlike the older DS with single-player GBA support, because multiplayer is possible with DS games on the 3DS!  Currently, my only 3DS game is Mario Kart 7, but i have nearly a dozen of older DS games.  These are still sold in stores, so just like the GBA and older GB games, Nintendo will be able to clear out DS games more easily because the 3DS is compatible with them.  Backwards compatibility is a win-win for everyone!  :-)

Offline UncleBob

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Re: Backwards Compatibility - Good or Bad?
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2013, 05:56:23 PM »
Just bought a copy of the full version of the original Wolfenstein 3D (which, oddly, according to the PCGamer disc that it's on, is rated E for Everyone.  I don't think that's right.).

It won't run on my Win8 Laptop.  Sadface.  Guess I'll have to figure out how to make it work, probably using DOSBox or something.
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Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: Backwards Compatibility - Good or Bad?
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2013, 06:00:18 PM »
Just bought a copy of the full version of the original Wolfenstein 3D (which, oddly, according to the PCGamer disc that it's on, is rated E for Everyone.  I don't think that's right.).

It won't run on my Win8 Laptop.  Sadface.  Guess I'll have to figure out how to make it work, probably using DOSBox or something.

I remember last year I had a urge to re-play RollerCoaster Tycoob. It plays on my Windows 7 laptop, but the expansion pack Corkscrew Follies doesn't for some reason (the disc is fine, it just won't play with Windows 7). I don't understand why since the base game does work.
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Offline pokepal148

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Re: Backwards Compatibility - Good or Bad?
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2013, 06:01:35 PM »
Just bought a copy of the full version of the original Wolfenstein 3D (which, oddly, according to the PCGamer disc that it's on, is rated E for Everyone.  I don't think that's right.).

It won't run on my Win8 Laptop.  Sadface.  Guess I'll have to figure out how to make it work, probably using DOSBox or something.

I remember last year I had a urge to re-play RollerCoaster Tycoob. It plays on my Windows 7 laptop, but the expansion pack Corkscrew Follies doesn't for some reason (the disc is fine, it just won't play with Windows 7). I don't understand why since the base game does work.
whats  roller coaster tycoob

Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: Backwards Compatibility - Good or Bad?
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2013, 06:06:15 PM »
LOL, stupid typo. RollerCoaster Tycoon.
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Offline Shorty McNostril

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Re: Backwards Compatibility - Good or Bad?
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2013, 02:56:44 AM »
A possibly silly question, but the compatibility options didn't help?

Offline MukiDA

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Re: Backwards Compatibility - Good or Bad?
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2013, 09:52:24 AM »
Backwards compatibility is an easy choice: Yes.
Consoles have 4-7 year life cycles at this point. By the time you hit the end-of-life, the entirety of the last gen's system fits on a rather tiny system-on-a-chip, that, at the end of the day, isn't expensive. Most of the other big expenses from the last gen, e.g. storage, you're gonna need anyway.
So why yes? Simple: Make your system an easier choice.
The PS2 was a dead-simple choice. Controllers worked, games worked, power plug worked, hell, even the video cable worked. It was a straight-up box replacement. You put your PS1 box in storage, you connect the PS2 to the exact same cables.
The Wii was the exact same way save for power/AV. Gamecube goes out, Wii goes in.
The thing is, you remove some of the choice from the matter. For the average Wii gamer, switching to the U once you've spent the money is dead-easy. Even with the Virtual Console shenanagans, there's something to be said about the peace of mind achieved from not having to turn on the old system for any reason, even nostalgia. It makes installing the new system easier.
Then comes the actual money advantages. If you do your backwards-compatibility RIGHT, you can start selling digital copies of your old games. For any company with established franchises, this is free money. Think about it. You burn through the next Zelda game and suddenly you get that nostalgia craving for the older titles. It should be ARBITRARY at that point to buy them all at your liesure.
This, I think, is Nintendo's biggest failing, and Sony's from the looks of it. They look at backwards compatibility as a revenue drain (why buy new games when I can play all the old ones?) instead of another revenue stream(why scrounge Gamestop's bargain bin when I can look through a buncha classics on the eshop/PSN? ) Heck, the first thing to die in a new console generation are a good deal of estabilished franchises that have trouble making the jump to higher requirements for graphics and gameplay that a new gen brings. Why not make it TRIVIAL for the customer base that ENJOYS the latest edition of your fantasy/sci-fi/shootin'/strategy/whocares epic to go back and see where it all started?
The thing is, consoles are closed platforms. Once a system generation is over, if production stops, any official avenues to a GENERATION of games become flaky. It's why I'm less inclined to pick up console versions of games I can find on Steam. I'm not sure, but I can imagine that consumers are becoming more aware of this. You'll note that even on Apple products, so long as you stay in the eco-system most of the dozens of apps you bought still work fine years later, and maybe even look nicer on the new device. Without backwards compatibility, a new generation is essentially starting from ZERO, and companies who don't see this are doing a diservice to both their customer base and themselves.
I could go on about this for pages but I'll cut the rant off there.

Offline Leo13

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Re: Backwards Compatibility - Good or Bad?
« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2013, 04:18:37 PM »
I bought a Wii U on launch day. The Backwards compatibility allowed Nintendo to make extra money. I took my old Wii and gave it to my parents. Consequentially, their Christmas (which would not have included any video games) turned into the purchase of 3 Wiimotes (I still have 1 sibling who lives with them) and 5 wii games (all of them are Nintendo designed and published games). Plus the fact that I ended up buying Pikmin 2 on the Wii with the sole desire to determine if I want to drop $60 on Pikmin 3 (I do). So backwards compatibility gave them controller sales and wii game sales that they wouldn't have had without it and it didn't take away from the Wii U console or game sales.
Win-Win

Offline Leo13

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Re: Backwards Compatibility - Good or Bad?
« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2013, 04:24:06 PM »
I just wish Nintendo would also either print more of the discs from the best Wii Games or make it so that I could download them. i bought a Wii late in the life so I missed on games like Metroid Prime 3/trilogy and wario ware smooth moves. You can't just go to Walmart and buy them (I checked Amazon today prime trilogy is $199). I'd love it if they pulled it back out and put the discs back on the shelves or just put it in the wiiware shop.

Offline pokepal148

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Re: Backwards Compatibility - Good or Bad?
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2013, 04:33:30 PM »
I just wish Nintendo would also either print more of the discs from the best Wii Games or make it so that I could download them. i bought a Wii late in the life so I missed on games like Metroid Prime 3/trilogy and wario ware smooth moves. You can't just go to Walmart and buy them (I checked Amazon today prime trilogy is $199). I'd love it if they pulled it back out and put the discs back on the shelves or just put it in the wiiware shop.
just reprint xenoblade doggone it

Offline Louieturkey

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Re: Backwards Compatibility - Good or Bad?
« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2013, 05:00:42 PM »
I just wish Nintendo would also either print more of the discs from the best Wii Games or make it so that I could download them. i bought a Wii late in the life so I missed on games like Metroid Prime 3/trilogy and wario ware smooth moves. You can't just go to Walmart and buy them (I checked Amazon today prime trilogy is $199). I'd love it if they pulled it back out and put the discs back on the shelves or just put it in the wiiware shop.
just reprint xenoblade doggone it
Agreed on both accounts.  More people need to enjoy these games.  Though I'm afraid they are working a HD remakes of each of these as the reason why they aren't making more of them.

Offline Ceric

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Re: Backwards Compatibility - Good or Bad?
« Reply #41 on: February 26, 2013, 12:18:29 PM »
BC Compatibility is not as cheap as you might think considering that Sony dropped it from the PS3 and they were still making PS2s...
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Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: Backwards Compatibility - Good or Bad?
« Reply #42 on: February 26, 2013, 01:50:18 PM »
BC Compatibility is not as cheap as you might think considering that Sony dropped it from the PS3 and they were still making PS2s...

IIRC, all that did was save them about $2 per system.That was hardly bankrupting them to keep it in.
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Offline pokepal148

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Re: Backwards Compatibility - Good or Bad?
« Reply #43 on: February 26, 2013, 01:50:32 PM »
even without bc the slim still costed about 300$

Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Backwards Compatibility - Good or Bad?
« Reply #44 on: February 26, 2013, 02:12:28 PM »
This, I think, is Nintendo's biggest failing, and Sony's from the looks of it. They look at backwards compatibility as a revenue drain (why buy new games when I can play all the old ones?) instead of another revenue stream(why scrounge Gamestop's bargain bin when I can look through a buncha classics on the eshop/PSN? ) Heck, the first thing to die in a new console generation are a good deal of estabilished franchises that have trouble making the jump to higher requirements for graphics and gameplay that a new gen brings. Why not make it TRIVIAL for the customer base that ENJOYS the latest edition of your fantasy/sci-fi/shootin'/strategy/whocares epic to go back and see where it all started?

The thing is that they're kind of right in that it is a revenue drain.  The Wii can play every Gamecube game and yet Nintendo felt the need to re-release many Gamecube games as NPC titles.  That seemed very unnecessary since if you wanted those games you could play them, even if the Wii was your first console.  But Nintendo didn't promote the feature or make accessories or the old games available.  The reason why is that they can't double dip.  It should make no difference to them if some new Nintendo customer buys the Wii or Gamecube version of Pikmin for their Wii.  They make a sale either way and it would actually be cheaper for Nintendo to just make new copies of the Cube version instead of dedicate development resources to creating a new version.  But then they won't sell a SECOND copy of Pikmin to someone who already owns the Cube version.  THAT is why they, and Sony and MS, don't like BC because it only sells to new adopters but with a re-release they can sell the same game multiple times to the same person.

They don't want to give us a service, they want to exploit us.  There are enough double dipping suckers out there to make it worthwhile.  They make more money from double dips and neglecting BC probably is not enough of a disservice to actually lose any sales anyway.

Offline pokepal148

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Re: Backwards Compatibility - Good or Bad?
« Reply #45 on: February 26, 2013, 02:21:57 PM »
This, I think, is Nintendo's biggest failing, and Sony's from the looks of it. They look at backwards compatibility as a revenue drain (why buy new games when I can play all the old ones?) instead of another revenue stream(why scrounge Gamestop's bargain bin when I can look through a buncha classics on the eshop/PSN? ) Heck, the first thing to die in a new console generation are a good deal of estabilished franchises that have trouble making the jump to higher requirements for graphics and gameplay that a new gen brings. Why not make it TRIVIAL for the customer base that ENJOYS the latest edition of your fantasy/sci-fi/shootin'/strategy/whocares epic to go back and see where it all started?

The thing is that they're kind of right in that it is a revenue drain.  The Wii can play every Gamecube game and yet Nintendo felt the need to re-release many Gamecube games as NPC titles.  That seemed very unnecessary since if you wanted those games you could play them, even if the Wii was your first console.  But Nintendo didn't promote the feature or make accessories or the old games available.  The reason why is that they can't double dip.  It should make no difference to them if some new Nintendo customer buys the Wii or Gamecube version of Pikmin for their Wii.  They make a sale either way and it would actually be cheaper for Nintendo to just make new copies of the Cube version instead of dedicate development resources to creating a new version.  But then they won't sell a SECOND copy of Pikmin to someone who already owns the Cube version.  THAT is why they, and Sony and MS, don't like BC because it only sells to new adopters but with a re-release they can sell the same game multiple times to the same person.

They don't want to give us a service, they want to exploit us.  There are enough double dipping suckers out there to make it worthwhile.  They make more money from double dips and neglecting BC probably is not enough of a disservice to actually lose any sales anyway.

but a year or so from now where will you be getting your wii games
used
nintendo has the best strategy for bc on the wii
just silently pull it out at a time when everybody who wants it owns the system

Offline Ceric

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Re: Backwards Compatibility - Good or Bad?
« Reply #46 on: February 26, 2013, 04:27:36 PM »
BC Compatibility is not as cheap as you might think considering that Sony dropped it from the PS3 and they were still making PS2s...

IIRC, all that did was save them about $2 per system.That was hardly bankrupting them to keep it in.
In raw chip cost.  It probably made the whole process of making a PS3 more streamlined, was one less bit of the supply chain that could break, and something that doesn't need supported and tested.  Consider thats $2 per system that means without all the other non-raw parts cost benefits that they could have potentially saved 146 Million Dollars.  That is not chump change.  Especially since we know that the PS3 sold for a lost at least part of its life.  I honestly don't think the number of sales they would have made with BC still in would had made up the $146,000,000.  The Cheapest PS3 I could fine on Amazon that I know is still made is  $264.99 and that is the newest flimsy redesign.  So lets just say its pure profit.  They just appear in stores from the Ether.  That would be 550,964 additional PS3s over the lifetime of the system.  That be .7% more PS3s.  Sony would also not have sold as many of their PSN re-releases of Older games.  Their attach rate for New Games would more than likely go down. 

It all comes down to, as much as we don't like to admit it, Game companies are businesses and Capitalistic way of thinking makes us strive for bigger profits and that is what a company will do.
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Offline smallsharkbigbite

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Re: Backwards Compatibility - Good or Bad?
« Reply #47 on: February 27, 2013, 07:38:30 AM »

I figure they think it would eat into sales of re-releases or just wouldn't appeal to a big enough market.  Nintendo is very much into big mainstream hits so some fringe product that appeals to geeks does not seem like it would be on their radar.  Someone like Reggie probably has no idea about any retro videogame scene at all.  The funny thing is that someone is making money of off systems like the Retro Duo and replacement SNES controllers and replacement NES cartridge connectors.  There clearly is SOME market and, if not embarassingly overpriced, an official Nintendo version of that stuff would probably squash the third party stuff.  If you were interested in a Retro Duo and a new legitimate Nintendo version of that product existed isn't that the one you would get?  Let's not ignore the used game systems that sell on eBay that Nintendo currently gets $0 from.  The products exist and someone is buying them and Nintendo doesn't make a dime off any of it.


The ironic thing is re-releases led me to pick up at least 3 systems and at least a hundred games of the past.  I started buying VC games, then realized Nintendo would never release them fast enough and they would never release many of the games I want to play.  I think they could make $100 million easy on it, but they'd have to use the Disney re-release approach.  Release a limited amount, like 2 million NES systems, add some cool collector packaging, and then people would scoop them up.  Since the NES is so cheap they could probably make a profit of $40-50 an NES which would add up to $80-$100 million on hardware.  Then re-release about 20 games from the era at a price of $20 could add to the profit.  They could also encourage 3rd parties such as Konami to rerelease say Contra and make even more $.  The key would be to keep it limited, so the NES systems sell out quickly and it doesn't really affect current console demand.  Then you re-release a SNES in 5 years, etc, keeping the re-releases limited. 


Most of the games, I'd re-release are so popular they probably wouldn't even affect re-releases.  By that I mean, most people that would actually buy a VC release of Super Mario 3 probably already own a version of that game for some system.  Embarrassingly, I have Super Mario 3 for NES, GBA, Super Nintendo, Wii x2(I bought the digital version and disc release).  I don't think I'd buy it again for Wii U, but I'd strongly consider it for the 3ds if they released a digital version.  People like to play these games on new systems and generally the price isn't too prohibitive to re-buy.