Topic: Episode 304: Don't Blame Games

[Pandareus]

On this episode: 3DS remorse, Wii U impressions, another Mario mod, and a very memorable Listener Mail segment. Plus: another RetroActive!

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/rfn/31509

Ladies and gentlemen, we present the return of... Jon Lindemann. It's good to have him back after a couple of weeks when he was pulled away from the show against his wishes. Jon gets the ball rolling with his thoughts on Muramasa: The Demon Blade, Gran Turismo PSP, and his disappointment with the 3DS lineup in 2012. Jonny follows with a report on his visit to the Wii U Experience in Denver, which is very much reminiscent of the old Cube Clubs and features many notable Wii U demos from E3. But will it convince Nintendo fans who still don't know the price, release date, or launch lineup? James doesn't have the answer, but he does have wrap-up thoughts on Rhythm Thief, which is pretty short (but maybe pretty long for a narrative rhythm game). Guillaume completes the set with his continuing trek through New Super Mario Bros. 2 and cautious optimism over the demo for a fan mod called Super Mario Galaxy 2.5, which is still a long way from completion.

The show only gets more passionate in the latter half, as we do some much-needed catching up on Listener Mail. The first letter is on violence and games, with a particular focus on other mainstream activities that seem to escape the constant charges of negative influence on the minds of babes and loonies. We also go deep into emails about must-have interface features and Nintendo's abandonment of motion control with Wii U. In all, it's probably one of the most intense and stimulating Listener Mail segments we've had in a while! You can help make it happen again soon by submitting your own questions for the RFN crew.

In the outro, Jonny has a surprise announcement: the next RetroActive is starting immediately, and the theme is Kirby's 20th anniversary! You've got less than two weeks to vote on which Kirby game we should collectively play and discuss, so get to it before you forget! Voting is quick and easy -- and if you're not sure which game to support, look for comments in the poll thread that might help.

[Shaymin]

Looking for someone who's trying to go through that adjustment to shooters and dual analogs right now?

* Shaymin raises his hand

I'm one of those Nintendo/handheld gamers for the last two generations, and I didn't play Sunshine or Metroid Prime until now, so I'm really struggling with independent camera control in NPC Prime 1. I've died twice in the early going of Prime because I got spun around and couldn't tell what way was up (or out).

Is Assassin's Creed the best way for someone to learn, or is there something else I should be playing? (I have access to a PS3/360, fwiw).

[PogueSquadron]

Can't wait to listen, Gui! You're doing a great job. Negative World represent.

[Bboy]

James Earl Jones is at this very moment playing the Wii U.

Look at all of them! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Jones_(disambiguation)

[Hey Einstein!]

On dual analogs:
OK everybody, don't hate me or nothing BUT I think some Nintendo fans have an irrational fear of dual stick control because of the Gamecube C stick.


To clarify: I love the GC controller, had a wave bird for my Wii, adored that massive micro switched A button, so comfortable to hold etc. But the C stick sucked and every time I tried to play an FPS I would give up frustrated after a few hours and get my shooting fix from Perfect Dark or a bit later, Resident Evil 4. When ever I played on a friends consoles I was destroyed and I blamed it all on dual analog controls. "SOOO counter intuitive!".


I have loved FPS games since Golden Eye and I felt left behind by the genre because of dual sticks. So when I read about the DS and Wii control schemes I hoped these would get me back in the game (never been a PC gamer). However I found that FPS experiences on Wii and DS were pretty flat (this was before the COD 4 port and Goldeneye) and I felt I was missing out by only having Nintendo consoles so I bought a PS3. Playing Modern Warfare 2 on easy mode and Super Stardust taught me all I needed to adjust to my long feared dual stick control. It's MUCH better than it was on the GC and it's now my preferred control type for an FPS or 3rd person shooter. I would take it over pointer controls any time! Friends tell me the Xbox controller is even better. Oh, and I really enjoyed Resident Evil Revelations with the frankenstick.


BUT ALSO, I do wish I could split my Dual shock 3 in half. I found whilst playing Mario Galaxy I would naturally sick with my arms far apart without thinking about it. I would even lean my elbows against chair arms and grip the nunchuck at weird angles, etc. It's so much nicer then having to sit with my hands fixed together for a conventional controller. I would love to be able to do this for all stick controlled games.


I don't think that dual sticks is the only decent method of control for all console games or the best system we'll ever have, obviously there are all kinds of things you can't do with it. But I was surprised this generation to discover that despite my concerns, it is actually my favorite control type.

[Pandareus]

Interesting theory but I don't think it applies to me. I've played plenty of dual stick games on my PS3 and I still think it's a clumsy control scheme.

I think the game that really illustrated this for me was Killzone 2. It was little to no auto-aiming, and because you spend most of your time glued behind a piece of cover, you can't use the old "strafe to adjust your aim horizontally" crutch that I mentioned on the podcast. And you're spending most of your time killing enemies that are also behind cover, so they present a very small target.

I do recall people complaining about the aiming in that particular game at launch, though, but I'm fairly sure I played it after it was patched, and it still sucked.


Meanwhile other FPS games solve the problem by cranking up the auto-aim. In Halo 2, there was a moment where I wasn't really touching the sticks and an enemy jumping across the screen literally shifted my view by 40 degrees because the reticle latched on him for a split second.

I'm not sure if every gamer who loved dual analog controls realize just how much these things are helping them. And hey, Metroid Prime 3 had lock-on and Red Steel 2 still had some auto-aim, so there are crutches in Wiimote FPSes as well. But I still think pointer controls make minute adjustment to your aim much easier.

[Jonnyboy117]

With the Wii U GamePad, you could use dual analog for most movement and broad aiming, and use the pointer for fine adjustments. Just sayin'.

[broodwars]

But I still think pointer controls make minute adjustment to your aim much easier.

The flipside, though, is that it's also much easier for the slightest twitch in your wrist (momentary itch, the Wiimote carpal tunnel that all Wii motion control games cause, etc.) to instantly screw up your aim dramatically? Is that realistic? Yes, but if I wanted realism I wouldn't be playing a video game.  So I'll take the control method where I can actually relax as I play my game, thanks.  The only exception I'd make would be for rail shooters like the two RE Chronicles games, though Child of Eden plays just fine with a normal controller so maybe not even then.

[Pandareus]

With the Wii U GamePad, you could use dual analog for most movement and broad aiming, and use the pointer for fine adjustments. Just sayin'.

The GamePad isn't great for pointer usage for the reasons I gave on the show. James' example was good: you wouldn't make a gun in the shape of a sourcing rod.

And I'm not talking about realism, here. It has purely to do with ease of use and comfort.

[Fiendlord_Timmay]

People have that much trouble with dual analog control? I've never even thought twice about it. Right stick for camera just seems so natural, whether its an FPS, Assassin's Creed, or Final Fantasy. RE4 on Gamecube was pretty painful, what with the inability to use the C stick for the camera. Metroid Prime had the same problem. The controls in both those games were really clunky and unintuitive IMO.

Even back when I was a Nintendo only gamer, I found games like Sunshine and Luigi's Mansion really easy to get used to. I even thought Monster Hunter 3's controls were pretty straightforward. I was kinda surprised to hear so many people bitch about it.

I guess it's just easy for me to adapt to control schemes. Never had a problem with the pointer on Wii, mouse and keyboard controls were very comfortable for Portal when I played that on PC, the DS Zelda games weren't too difficult, etc.

Off the top of my head, the only control schemes that really put (read: pissed) me off were keyboard for platformers (especially for hard ones like Super Meat Boy and IWBTG...) and gyro controls. Yes that includes Fluidity and Mario Kart with the Wii Wheel. I feel like I have little control and I'm always wrestling to get it to do what I want. Fluidity's waggle jump made it even worse. Also iOS games like Rolando suck for the same reason. Oh and Monster Hunter on PSP was an abomination. Movement with the analog nub, camera with the dpad, and L button for Items? Did they not playtest that game? Are the devs not human? WTF.

Just my $.02.

[Bboy]

Quite honestly, I learned dual-analogue from Wind Waker and, like Jonny said, Mario Sunshine. You had to constantly manage the camera in those games constantly. If you've played those games, you can use dual-analogue. Monster Hunter Tri with dual-analogue is no harder to control than Wind Waker in my opinion, though it could use Wind Waker's lock-on. And, going back and playing Majora's Mask, man do I miss the camera control. The camera in Majora's Mask is god awful.

[Glad0s]

Fantastic episode. The listener mail segment was the best I've heard in ages. Wow. As far as my thoughts on the whole analog/motion control debate go, I....really don't care. I'm fine with either method. Oh, and the discussion on violence was absolutely fantastic, but I really think that the whole "games are a new medium" phase has reached its end. I haven't heard any sensationalist stories about violence and games being related since Columbine. However, there have been loads of stories about sexuality and games, most recently Mass Effect. But hey, that was, like, four years ago, so the days of sensationalist gaming stories in the mainstream media may soon be completely over. Now....what's next? Sensationalist hologram stories?



 (Also, I'm sure that Nintendo was delighted to learn that the man who wrote such great novels as From Here to Eternity was a member of Club Nintendo.)

[broodwars]

Having listened to the full episode now, a few things:

1.  I'm delighted that James is going to start playing the Lufia 2 DS (not really a) "remake", considering it was one of my games on NFR episode 1.   ;D   Oh, it should be hilarious hearing him talk about how completely broken and weird that game is.

2.  I have to enjoy the irony at the hand-wringing from that last listener mail question (and to some extent Guillaume) over how pointer control people would "have" to join the rest of the gaming world and learn how to play games with dual analog controls.  What was the party line from the pointer control fans to dual analog gamers when the Wii launched and they were looking at having to deal with what they considered inferior controls?  Oh right..."Get over it.  You'll get used to them eventually."

Payback's a Bitch, ain't it?  :P: ;)   I look forward to further ironic hand-wringing if it turns out pointer controls are supported about as much on Wii U as the Classic Controller (and the Pro variant) was supported on Wii.

[Jargon]

Hey guys, first post here, but I wanted to discuss the RFN crew's answer to my question so I signed up.

First things first, thanks for reading my question!  I couldn't have asked for a more spirited discussion.  Great stuff.

I do want to clarify a few things, if possible.  Jonny did indeed say what I attributed to him, that the Wii U Gamepad can do everything Wiimotion Plus can and that he didn't want to see any games that required Wii Motion Plus on the system.  I went back to check and make sure before I sent my letter in case I had misheard.

I also want to make clear that I have no problem with dual analog controls.  They're not my favorite for FPS, as I grew up playing those games on PC, but they're not the worst thing in the world.  I played hundreds of hours of Halo in college, I'm a proud owner of an Xbox360 and I use a 360 controller on my PC in lots of games.  I'd be happy to challenge anyone to some Deathmatch if they think I'm a n00b ;).  My point wasn't that dual analog controls shouldn't be used, of course they should.   They should certainly be an option in FPS games since some people do clearly prefer them.  And I'm fine with them being the only choice in cross platform games where it doesn't make sense to slap together pointer controls, like Jonny's example of Assassin's Creed.

But my example, Metroid Prime, has never used dual analog.  So it shouldn't be heresy to want to see the pointer controls that worked quite well (for me at least) in Prime 3 and Prime Trilogy continued on the Wii U.  And I'm surprised no one stuck up more for Skyward Sword, the combat of which I know many people find to be a huge step up from previous 3D Zelda games.

And despite the hint of snark I detected in the mention of the "fertile ground of motion control", I think the possibilities for innovation next generation are fertile indeed.   We were dealing with a completely new technology this generation.  For all intents and purposes this was the NES of motion control (or Atari even).  You can't expect these types of gameplay to be perfectly refined by now.  And as James said, the improvement from Dragon Quest Swords to Skyward Sword was quite drastic.  There's no reason to think with a continued focus that couldn't be improved upon more and more.  But if motion control is not the focus of the next Zelda, but just one option alongside the Wii U Gamepad, with an emphasis on completely different types of innovation, I do think it's very unrealistic to think that we'll get to see that improvement come to fruition.

Another thing to consider is not innovation, but cultivation.  James pointed out that no game after Wii Sports really made swinging a golf club much fun.  But Nintendo barely tried.  The best we got was Wii Sports Resort, which was still just one part of ten different modes.  If someone had told me that there wouldn't be a full, blown out Mario Golf or Mario Tennis on Wii, I would have thought they were crazy.  Hell, I would happily take a Mario Bowling.  If these games are to come, they should focus on the Wiimotion Plus to deliver on the untapped potential we all thought about when we first picked up the Wiimote.

I agree that motion controls don't belong in every game, and that one of the Wii's problem was how many games tried to shoehorn them in.  The Wii U provides an opportunity to completely ignore motion controls in favor of the tablet functions, or ignore those too and go with just the Wii U Pro controller, when the game calls for it.   That's great.   But some percentage of games should continue to explore motion controls and when they do, the developer should embrace them fully.

[Ceric]

NFR3 is up.  You can listen to me rant on Dual Analog controls in the Pokemon Snap section. (M4a will be up before NFR4 ... maybe).

Sum it up.  Dual analog was the best they could do at the time.  Mouse/Wii Pointer far better.

[broodwars]

Sum it up.  Dual analog was the best they could do at the time.  Mouse/Wii Pointer far better.

And I will always fight you on that point, especially since the Classic Controller's analog sticks aren't exactly top-of-the-line compared to the PS3 and 360 controllers' analog sticks.

There are things I like pointer controls for (such as rail shooters), but as someone who likes steady precision in his shot (particularly for sniping) I'll take the not-so-easily-screwed-up aim of the analog sticks any other time.  Plus, I think the Wii proved rather conclusively that pointer control outright sucks for camera control in 3rd person games.  ;)

[Sarail]

Sum it up.  Dual analog was the best they could do at the time.  Mouse/Wii Pointer far better.

And I will always fight you on that point, especially since the Classic Controller's analog sticks aren't exactly top-of-the-line compared to the PS3 and 360 controllers' analog sticks.

Ooooh, brood. I disagree on the Classic controller's analogue sticks not being top-of-the-line...compared to the other guys' analogue sticks.

I find the PS3 sticks (and all the previous PS controllers) not having the eight directional hard corners built into cavity of the stick just awful. I'll push and hold up to move forward, and my character will start moving slightly to the left -- all because I can't feel that hard groove when I push up. This doesn't happen when I use the CCPro, or any previous Nintendo analogue stick controller. It's just more precise having those grooves built in.

I also absolutely LOATHE the top/nub portion of Sony's sticks. It's too slick. And in heated gameplay, when my hands/fingers start to get a bit stressed - and slight moisture starts to build up - I just lose all control with those things. Horrible design. Just awful.

As far was Microsoft's sticks go, I've never been a fan of the nub design on their sticks. It's too fat/big, which in turn, ultimately makes it uncomfortable for me. It doesn't ergonomically "click" with me. Pun intended.

I feel that Nintendo has perfected the analogue nub portion with the Wii - both on the nunchuk and the CCPro (CC, too). My only complaint is that it doesn't have the L3/R3 click - but hey, it's on Wii U. So, I'm good to go. :)

[broodwars]

My problem with the Classic Controller's sticks is that they feel too loose. There's too much give in the sticks (even compared to the Nunchuk's stick), at least in mine.  They work fine for games that were designed with those sticks in mind and don't use them for too much action like Xenoblade or The Last Story.  However, I find them lacking for playing actual Virtual Console games, which is ironic considering that's the controller's very purpose.

[Ceric]

Sum it up.  Dual analog was the best they could do at the time.  Mouse/Wii Pointer far better.

And I will always fight you on that point, especially since the Classic Controller's analog sticks aren't exactly top-of-the-line compared to the PS3 and 360 controllers' analog sticks.

There are things I like pointer controls for (such as rail shooters), but as someone who likes steady precision in his shot (particularly for sniping) I'll take the not-so-easily-screwed-up aim of the analog sticks any other time.  Plus, I think the Wii proved rather conclusively that pointer control outright sucks for camera control in 3rd person games.  ;)

Nope, have to disagree.  ESPECIALLY for Sniping.  Dual Analog = Junk.  Mouse/Pointer Much Better.  Now there are a ton of Genres that may not be the case but, if it involves Aiming,  Mouse/Pointer all the way.  There will be exceptions but those are remarkably rare.

[broodwars]

Sum it up.  Dual analog was the best they could do at the time.  Mouse/Wii Pointer far better.

And I will always fight you on that point, especially since the Classic Controller's analog sticks aren't exactly top-of-the-line compared to the PS3 and 360 controllers' analog sticks.

There are things I like pointer controls for (such as rail shooters), but as someone who likes steady precision in his shot (particularly for sniping) I'll take the not-so-easily-screwed-up aim of the analog sticks any other time.  Plus, I think the Wii proved rather conclusively that pointer control outright sucks for camera control in 3rd person games.  ;)

Nope, have to disagree.  ESPECIALLY for Sniping.  Dual Analog = Junk.  Mouse/Pointer Much Better.  Now there are a ton of Genres that may not be the case but, if it involves Aiming,  Mouse/Pointer all the way.  There will be exceptions but those are remarkably rare.

Hold your mouse in the air for hours at a time with the mouse only actually working 4/5 of the time you need it to and 2 times as heavy, & we'll see how you like pointer devices.  :P:   But hey, at least when you use a mouse, you have a hard surface beneath your hand and gravity in your favor.  Plus, you have a keyboard for as many commands as you might need.  I prefer the tactile feel and force feedback of a controller over the sterile mouse & keyboard, but I can respect that control method even if I don't like it.

In dual analog games, I can shoot w/ great precision over long distances in just about any given game.  In pointer control games, I can barely hit something with precision from medium distance (which is why one of the first things I did in Metroid Prime 3 was turn the lock-on aiming back on, where it belongs).  There are just too many quirks to pointer aiming for my tastes, especially if I actually want to relax while I play these games.

Bear in mind, I just spend 10 hours playing Cursed Mountain to completion, so I've just seen just about every way the Wiimote can FAIL in a given gaming situation.  So yeah, I may be just a tad bit bitter having just seen a decent experience destroyed by the Wiimote.  ;)

[Ceric]

Sum it up.  Dual analog was the best they could do at the time.  Mouse/Wii Pointer far better.

And I will always fight you on that point, especially since the Classic Controller's analog sticks aren't exactly top-of-the-line compared to the PS3 and 360 controllers' analog sticks.

There are things I like pointer controls for (such as rail shooters), but as someone who likes steady precision in his shot (particularly for sniping) I'll take the not-so-easily-screwed-up aim of the analog sticks any other time.  Plus, I think the Wii proved rather conclusively that pointer control outright sucks for camera control in 3rd person games.  ;)

Nope, have to disagree.  ESPECIALLY for Sniping.  Dual Analog = Junk.  Mouse/Pointer Much Better.  Now there are a ton of Genres that may not be the case but, if it involves Aiming,  Mouse/Pointer all the way.  There will be exceptions but those are remarkably rare.

Hold your mouse in the air for hours at a time with the mouse only actually working 4/5 of the time you need it to and 2 times as heavy, & we'll see how you like pointer devices.  :P:   But hey, at least when you use a mouse, you have a hard surface beneath your hand and gravity in your favor.  Plus, you have a keyboard for as many commands as you might need.  I prefer the tactile feel and force feedback of a controller over the sterile mouse & keyboard, but I can respect that control method even if I don't like it.

In dual analog games, I can shoot w/ great precision over long distances in just about any given game.  In pointer control games, I can barely hit something with precision from medium distance (which is why one of the first things I did in Metroid Prime 3 was turn the lock-on aiming back on, where it belongs).  There are just too many quirks to pointer aiming for my tastes, especially if I actually want to relax while I play these games.

Bear in mind, I just spend 10 hours playing Cursed Mountain to completion, so I've just seen just about every way the Wiimote can FAIL in a given gaming situation.  So yeah, I may be just a tad bit bitter having just seen a decent experience destroyed by the Wiimote.  ;)

Tell me in your own word during that play through what were you actually doing with the controls?  Where you doing gunplay, melee fighting,moving, conquering the mountain, interacting with the environment?  Give it to me in percentages.

So you can honestly tell me with a straight face you prefered RE4 GC over RE4 Wii.

[broodwars]

Tell me in your own word during that play through what were you actually doing with the controls?  Where you doing gunplay, melee fighting,moving, conquering the mountain, interacting with the environment?  Give it to me in percentages.

I don't think I could give it to you in percentages (the balance of the game changes so dramatically over the course of the game), but Cursed Mountain is essentially a 3rd person shooter at its core, more Silent Hill than modern Resident Evil, with elements of the Fatal Frame series. You're

- running through 3D environments w/ an auto-camera
- scaling mountain walls (using remote & nunchuk waggling to speed the process up)
- occasionally pushing spirits away at close range with waggle
- blasting spirits with energy from ice your ice pick from a fixed 3rd person perspective with the Wiimote pointer (the Nunchuk stick controlling the camera). So yeah, combat is largely 3rd person shooter with enemies that like to teleport around and sneak up on you, necessitating a lot of camera turning.
- performing finishers on enemies using a series of motion control gestures that are finicky at best due to how the game reads them (using the IR sensor rather than the gyroscopes, which the game never tells you).
- performing similar gestures on symbols in the environment to release seals.
- using the Wiimote to "balance" your way across a handful of small "beams" in the environment (which is actually pretty simple, so it's not really an issue compared to the nightmare it is in Skyward Sword).
- If you have the Wiimote speaker turned on (I didn't, except once to test this), you get radio messages and "climber's logs" out of the speaker, which sound like crap because the Wiimote speaker is such.

So you can honestly tell me with a straight face you prefered RE4 GC over RE4 Wii.

No, I definitely prefer the Wii version there, but it's also a game where enemies move extremely slowly so it's easy to line up your shot.  It's also a game where you CAN'T move while aiming so there wouldn't be the usual benefits to dual stick control.  I also greatly prefer having an actual reticule on-screen to a laser sight.

One of these days, actually, I'm going to get to playing Resident Evil 5 on my PS3 with the Move.  I'm curious to see how that game plays with pointer control considering that was a dual analog shooter originally.

[Lithium]

@1:28 (pointer vs sticks, FPS controls)

I'm right there with you Guillaume, i absolutely hate using analogue sticks for FPS'. which is why i always play the PC version of the game instead, wiimote pointer controls are great, but like James said most developers don't really try and most games has terrible default settings which forces you to spend some time customizing the controls before you can play the game, assuming the developers even give you that option. As Metroid Prime 3 shows when it's done right it's a pretty big improvement over sticks. during the conversation there seemed to be a theme of "people not knowing how to use dual analogue" i didnt even know that was a factor, in my case its just personal preference. At any rate im glad that the wii remotes are compatable with wiiU and hopefully they'll actually be utilized as an optional interface.

[Fiendlord_Timmay]

which is why one of the first things I did in Metroid Prime 3 was turn the lock-on aiming back on, where it belongs

Hmm, I dunno. I played through all 3 Prime games in the trilogy collection for Wii. I played all of them with lock on turned off. It felt very restrictive to me. I preferred the freedom to be able to quickly aim elsewhere in my view without having to take the time to fumble with disengaging the target from the enemy you were attacking. I never really had a problem with accuracy either.

[Plugabugz]

The backing music during Now Playing stopped for a few seconds.

I believe it was to allow the sultry tones of The Lindemann to take centre stage. I'm fine with that.