Topic: People Need To Stop Bitching

[MagicCow64]

I'm going to disagree with the majority, in that I agree with Nintendo's reluctance to show future titles.  First, it keeps the competition guessing as to your strategy.  But more importantly, it allows Nintendo to go all out next E3, stealing the attention away from Sony and Microsoft's next consoles.  Timing is as important as the nature of your news.  Could Nintendo have shown one major game to create a positive impression?  Sure, (and I don't think Pikmin 3 was this game) but I think having mostly tech demos to stimulate the imagination of your audience is sufficient for now.  The whole point is to not be forgotten next year when the competition increases.

Your point that they need to have a good showing next year when they're going to have to compete with the next generation consoles is a good one.  The only thing I wonder is if by that time, it's already going to be too late to have a chance to capture the core gaming audience.  Many seem to have already lost interest and forgotten and the system isn't even out.  Maybe I'm crazy but this feels like the WiiU could end up like the Dreamcast, caught half way in between generations and people will take a wait and see approach and end up choosing the next Sony or Microsoft consoles because they're far ahead technologically.  Obviously, Nintendo is in a completely different place financially and Nintendo's first party games are superior and they're coming off of the best selling console of last generation so it's a different situation so who knows.  I want the WiiU to be successful but I just don't see that being the most likely scenario at this point.

I think it's coming down to a Mexican stand-off between Nintendo and MicroSony. Will the PS4 and XBox720 make a huge, expensive graphical leap in order to defunct the WiiU and please Epic, or will they look at their bottom lines and make a gentle, multi-media focused upgrade? It'll be years before the economy gets back up to the same snuff it was when last gen launched. Will they risk a high PS3-esque pricetag and slow adoption? Or will they position themselves about as far ahead of the WiiU as the Gamecube and Xbox were ahead of the PS2?

I honestly think it could go either way, and that, despite everyone's thirst for crazy Sci-fi graphics, it would be healthier to slow-walk the generational upgrades and tamp down on the gross boom-bust software cycle and usurious DLC/online practices.

Time will tell!

[shingi_70]

Heres the thing people forgot whe  tqlking about expensive consoles. Nintendo and Sony cant afflrd to sell **** at a loss but Microsoft can and will. Whats to stop microsoft frlm putting out an uber powerful system and selling it at $350 for a loss. Tbats not even considering the. Adapting the $99 xbox plan to next gen as well as it being carried as a viable option on cable companies.

 http://www.joystiq.com/2012/06/25/99-xbox-360-with-two-year-contract-now-at-gamestop-best-buy/
 http://www.joystiq.com/2012/06/25/99-xbox-360-with-two-year-contract-now-at-gamestop-best-buy/

Microsoft is probably in tbe best postion of tbe big three going into next gen. Dont think for a second microsoft wont throw their weight around to deliver a more powerful system while undercutting everyone else.

Also remember this


- Sony had the most popular system last gen.
-Sony had probably the best mix of thord party and first party ever
-The PS3 was a flop and maybe even a commerical failure for most of its life.


So I wouldnt use any of Nintendos past success as an example. When things such as connectivity and and eco system are becoming more important and nintendo barley has either.

[NWR_insanolord]

Microsoft could do that, but why would they if they didn't have to? If Sony and Nintendo played it safe it would be in Microsoft's best interest to do so as well.

[shingi_70]

While I do think all three will play it safe microaoft could throw things in tbeir favor by not doing so.


Thr problem with yhe PS3 was the cost and it was hard tk develop for.  Now If microsoft went with a uber powerful system they take a loss on could be a be an advantage. 

Seeing as the next gen xbox will probably once again be the lead dev platform (at least for western games) then going all out might be wortb it in the long. Plus microsoft is looking to be the king of the living room and wants the long console cycles so it would mKe sense to future proof.

That and after reading the leaked document and going back through what we knoe about windows 8 and windows phone for microsoft to do what they want to do its going to have to well speced.



On a more related note since EA is showing off there Wii U stuff next month can we expect another Nintendo Direct?

[Chozo Ghost]

Microsoft could do that, but why would they if they didn't have to?

Because this way they could crush their competitors, just like they did to Netscape back in the '90s.

If Sony and Nintendo played it safe it would be in Microsoft's best interest to do so as well.

In the short term it may not be in their best interest, but in the long term it would be... and especially so if they manage to knock Sony out of the video game industry for good. If they do that, Microsoft would not face any serious competition in consoles ever again and they would have the same sort of monopoly there that they do now on operating systems.

I don't think Microsoft views Nintendo as a threat, and Nintendo wouldn't be badly effected if Microsoft went all out on a beast of a machine, but Sony definitely would be hurt, and maybe it would even be a lethal blow to them.

[Kairon]

The presence of larger and better-funded competitors like Sony and especially Microsoft in the market is a major reason why Nintendo needs to continually shift, differentiate, and expand their market experience. If they stop moving forward and try to compete on pre-existing, commoditized gaming paradigms, they'll be outspent and outgunned in the long run.

[Chozo Ghost]

Does anyone know what the net profit/loss is for the xbox 360 at this point? I know they spent billions on it and they were in the red for a long time, but right now the 360 is the best selling console on the market and it has been that way for awhile, so are they out of the red yet? If the 360 ultimately became profitable then that would be all the more reason why Microsoft would want to repeat that strategy.

As we've seen, Nintendo is perfectly capable of getting by with a console that is a generation behind, but can Sony do that? If the PS4 ends up being a generation behind the 420 will Sony be able to survive? On the other hand, they could beef the PS4 up to match the 420, but do they have enough money to do this again? This is the dilemma they face, and either way they might be screwed.

[MagicCow64]

Does anyone know what the net profit/loss is for the xbox 360 at this point? I know they spent billions on it and they were in the red for a long time, but right now the 360 is the best selling console on the market and it has been that way for awhile, so are they out of the red yet? If the 360 ultimately became profitable then that would be all the more reason why Microsoft would want to repeat that strategy.

As we've seen, Nintendo is perfectly capable of getting by with a console that is a generation behind, but can Sony do that? If the PS4 ends up being a generation behind the 420 will Sony be able to survive? On the other hand, they could beef the PS4 up to match the 420, but do they have enough money to do this again? This is the dilemma they face, and either way they might be screwed.

It's difficult to say how well the 360 has benefited the bottom line over time, but Microsoft's entertainment division is not doing all that hot, it's just doing better than Sony and Nintendo. Microsoft seems more interested in expanding its phone and media businesses: http://www.geekwire.com/2012/microsofts-entertainment-division-diverse-profitable/

The eventual domination of the 360 this gen has helped turn things around for Microsoft, but their life-to-date entertainment division is still in the red by as much as $5 billion (as of this 2011 article), and the question is exactly what this board has been discussing: can they sell another console at a huge initial loss? http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-04-21/tech/29975028_1_windows-phone-microsoft-nintendo

Given how much money MS has pissed away on Bing and plowed into establishing the Xbox brand, I know what my opinion would be if I was a shareholder.

[Kairon]

Does anyone know what the net profit/loss is for the xbox 360 at this point? I know they spent billions on it and they were in the red for a long time, but right now the 360 is the best selling console on the market and it has been that way for awhile, so are they out of the red yet? If the 360 ultimately became profitable then that would be all the more reason why Microsoft would want to repeat that strategy.

As we've seen, Nintendo is perfectly capable of getting by with a console that is a generation behind, but can Sony do that? If the PS4 ends up being a generation behind the 420 will Sony be able to survive? On the other hand, they could beef the PS4 up to match the 420, but do they have enough money to do this again? This is the dilemma they face, and either way they might be screwed.

It's difficult to say how well the 360 has benefited the bottom line over time, but Microsoft's entertainment division is not doing all that hot, it's just doing better than Sony and Nintendo. Microsoft seems more interested in expanding its phone and media businesses: http://www.geekwire.com/2012/microsofts-entertainment-division-diverse-profitable/

The eventual domination of the 360 this gen has helped turn things around for Microsoft, but their life-to-date entertainment division is still in the red by as much as $5 billion (as of this 2011 article), and the question is exactly what this board has been discussing: can they sell another console at a huge initial loss? http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-04-21/tech/29975028_1_windows-phone-microsoft-nintendo

Given how much money MS has pissed away on Bing and plowed into establishing the Xbox brand, I know what my opinion would be if I was a shareholder.

Supposedly with just the last 6 fiscal years of that Division that handles XBox, Zune, Windows Phone and whatever else that group is like $200 million in the black? I guess the argument is that the XBox 360 is profitable because the other things in that division can be considered duds.

Personally, I haven't seen any sign that MS isn't ready to keep investing money, I think they still consider XBox a long-term startegic move that isn't essentially worth it in and of itself, but IS worth it to them as a means of trojan-horsing their other divisions into the living room and fending off other companies from doing the same.

[Chozo Ghost]

Any losses Microsoft might suffer from the NeXbox420 will more than be made up for by Windows 8.

[Stogi]

Yeah but that's just bad business.

[SixthAngel]

Microsoft could do that, but why would they if they didn't have to?

Because this way they could crush their competitors, just like they did to Netscape back in the '90s.

If only one console is a beast machine it isn't going to crush the competition.
It took both the ps3 and 360 together to make development worthwhile.  Unless the next xbox vastly increases its user-base for some unpredictable reason one console becoming a beast would be suicide in this day when ports are the norm.  The system being a beast just isn't much of a selling point.  They would be asking developers to focus on their platform and theirs alone years in advance  despite the fact that they can't port games and the development is more expensive.  I can't imagine anyone outside Epic and other companies that sell technology instead of games supporting it very much if they have any business sense.

[Shaymin]

Any losses Microsoft might suffer from the NeXbox420 will more than be made up for by Windows 7.

Fixed that for you. Windows 8 is the "odd" OS version that tanks (see: ME, Vista)

[shingi_70]

Any losses Microsoft might suffer from the NeXbox420 will more than be made up for by Windows 7.

Fixed that for you. Windows 8 is the "odd" OS version that tanks (see: ME, Vista)

Look up how much they sold of Windows Vista. And beyond bitching nereds most of what has been heard from developers and tech press have said its good. Ive been using the beta since the consumer release and the metro stuff works perfectly on a tablet and the desktop side is windows 7 on steroids. 

[NWR_insanolord]

Microsoft could do that, but why would they if they didn't have to?

Because this way they could crush their competitors, just like they did to Netscape back in the '90s.

If Sony and Nintendo played it safe it would be in Microsoft's best interest to do so as well.

In the short term it may not be in their best interest, but in the long term it would be... and especially so if they manage to knock Sony out of the video game industry for good. If they do that, Microsoft would not face any serious competition in consoles ever again and they would have the same sort of monopoly there that they do now on operating systems.

I don't think Microsoft views Nintendo as a threat, and Nintendo wouldn't be badly effected if Microsoft went all out on a beast of a machine, but Sony definitely would be hurt, and maybe it would even be a lethal blow to them.

Microsoft's goal isn't to crush its competition, it's to make money. If they play it safe and release a console that can be profitable in the short term instead of taking huge losses, they'll make more money.

[MegaByte]

Microsoft's goal isn't to crush its competition, it's to make money.

Proximate goal, ultimate goal.

[shingi_70]

@

Microsoft could do that, but why would they if they didn't have to?

Because this way they could crush their competitors, just like they did to Netscape back in the '90s.

If only one console is a beast machine it isn't going to crush the competition.
It took both the ps3 and 360 together to make development worthwhile.  Unless the next xbox vastly increases its user-base for some unpredictable reason one console becoming a beast would be suicide in this day when ports are the norm.  The system being a beast just isn't much of a selling point.  They would be asking developers to focus on their platform and theirs alone years in advance  despite the fact that they can't port games and the development is more expensive.  I can't imagine anyone outside Epic and other companies that sell technology instead of games supporting it very much if they have any business sense.

See the problem with that is most developerd already have experience with long console cycles and a good portion of the industy uses third party dev tools. Also I think you misunderstand what a  beast of a system would mean for the industry. Wii U and the PS4 would still get the games but they wouldnt look as good. Its not like a wii Situation were the sytem isnt desgined to run these games. Seeing as Windows 8 and the Next Xbox will both running thr next Versikn of Direct X as well as sharing all Apis this allows developers to make the PC version he target as it will be the same version as the 720 and then being ported to the other platforms. This would possibly ensure that the NextBox would be the lead platform for alot of games next gen.


And the xbox is sure to increase userbase if they use models they have been testing with the 360, suh as on contract phones and the 360 being pushed by cable companies.
 

[NWR_insanolord]

Microsoft's goal isn't to crush its competition, it's to make money.

Proximate goal, ultimate goal.

Except going out of their way to crush the competition in this manner would significantly hurt their ability to make money. Especially because, as SixthAngel pointed out, if Sony and Nintendo are within porting range of each other and Microsoft's way higher, most developers are going to be hesitant to support Microsoft's platform.

[Chozo Ghost]

The goal is always to make money, but if Microsoft manages to force Sony out of the business and they get a monopolistic stranglehold on the console market then they will make a LOT more money in the long run. If they "play it safe" they would make money in the short term, but they would have no chance of becoming a monopoly and they wouldn't make as much money in the long run.

Playing it safe and releasing a modest console which makes a modest profit is chump change compared to what Microsoft is really after.

most developers are going to be hesitant to support Microsoft's platform.

The worst case scenario is they just wouldn't take full advantage of the extra power of the Microsoft platform. They would still support it regardless, but they just might not go out of their way to utilize all the bells and whistles.

But something tells me Microsoft isn't going to ease up on the money hats. No developer is going to resist them. So Microsoft's platform will continue to see exclusives, times exclusives, exclusive dlc, and timed exclusive DLC, and so on. Microsoft is a sugardaddy and developers love to support them because Microsoft pays generously for that support.

Combine that with the fact Microsoft's platform will be the most similar to PCs and easiest to port from PCs and I don't think developer support will be any issue whatsoever. Sony and Nintendo may have systems closer to each  other, but the PC platform will be closer to Microsoft's console and that means the odds are even.

[Louieturkey]

Pretty sure even M$ was planning to lose money on its first two versions of the Xbox.  When they started actually making money (not enough to make up for the billions lost during the first Xbox era and the first couple of years of the 360), they probably changed their strategy.  I would not be surprised if the nexbox ends up being either sold for a minimal loss or even a slight profit.  They got a taste of making money in this industry and they don't want to give that up.  All three systems will end up being close a la the PS2/Xbox/GCN era.   It'll really be the gimmicks that each system brings that will decide who wins this next gen.  Either the gamepad will sell the Wii U or the Kinect 2/Smart Glass thingy will sell the 420 or whatever Sony steals from others will sell the PSOrbis.

[tendoboy1984]

Pretty sure even M$ was planning to lose money on its first two versions of the Xbox.  When they started actually making money (not enough to make up for the billions lost during the first Xbox era and the first couple of years of the 360), they probably changed their strategy.  I would not be surprised if the nexbox ends up being either sold for a minimal loss or even a slight profit.  They got a taste of making money in this industry and they don't want to give that up.

Actually Microsoft wanted to sell every Xbox 360 at a profit (or as close to it as possible).

Source: The Xbox Uncloaked by Dean Takahashi

[tendoboy1984]

The worst case scenario is they just wouldn't take full advantage of the extra power of the Microsoft platform. They would still support it regardless, but they just might not go out of their way to utilize all the bells and whistles.

Seeing how quickly developers supported the Xbox 360 when it launched, I think they'll gladly support the next Xbox. Sony might have a harder time next gen, because they promised so much with the PS Vita, but the support just isn't there.

[Chozo Ghost]

The worst case scenario is they just wouldn't take full advantage of the extra power of the Microsoft platform. They would still support it regardless, but they just might not go out of their way to utilize all the bells and whistles.

Seeing how quickly developers supported the Xbox 360 when it launched, I think they'll gladly support the next Xbox. Sony might have a harder time next gen, because they promised so much with the PS Vita, but the support just isn't there.

That's what happens sometimes when you write checks that depend on someone else in order to cash. Nintendo knows they can't just take for granted that 3rd party support will automatically be there. Apparently this is a lesson Sony hasn't learned yet. Sony has always had it good in the industry and 3rd parties have always tripped over themselves in their rush to support Playstation hardware, but starting around 2006 things have slowly started to change.

Sony is now not much different than Nintendo was in 1996. 3rd party support alone isn't going to cut it for them anymore, so they have to step up to the plate with more AAA 1st party titles. That's the only way the Vita is going to turn itself around.

But with all of Sony's hands occupied with the gearing up for the PS4, can they give the Vita the support it needs?

[Evan_B]

Are you saying Nintendo was too reliant on 3rd party devs in 1996?

Honestly, a fair amount of Sony's recent 1st party efforts have just been coasting on their respective franchises' histories, something that NSMBU threatens to do as well. At least the 3D Mario efforts, Zelda, and Metroid have been attempting to build and evolve in core concept and design- none of Sony's IPs seem to be doing that. The Last of Us looks like it could just be Uncharted with a kid.

[MagicCow64]

Are you saying Nintendo was too reliant on 3rd party devs in 1996?

Honestly, a fair amount of Sony's recent 1st party efforts have just been coasting on their respective franchises' histories, something that NSMBU threatens to do as well. At least the 3D Mario efforts, Zelda, and Metroid have been attempting to build and evolve in core concept and design- none of Sony's IPs seem to be doing that. The Last of Us looks like it could just be Uncharted with a kid.

I'm mildly curious as to why Microsoft didn't jump at the opportunity to buy Activision. They'd lose multi-platform money, but if they could deprive PS4 of the Call of Duty franchise in perpetuity, it could seriously hobble Sony. Even if/when CoD fades in popularity, the PS4 would be knee-capped out of the gate (not to mention the WiiU). Sony's first party stuff is indeed feeling a bit wheezy, and if they had another leg kicked out from under them they could be in serious trouble. Alas, my 13-year-old dream of Sony going away will not be aided by this scenario given MS' pass.