Topic: PlayStation All Stars: Better than Super Smash Bros Brawl!

[S-U-P-E-R]

Over the long haul everybody gets helped out and screwed over by the system equally. Individual matches can be dictated by it, though. Still, it's better than something like Mario Kart that gives you more and more help the more you suck.

Reminder that broodwars said "the" match. He will rue this day.

[nickmitch]

And I like the wanton chaos in your average Brawl match.  It keeps things interesting and makes the playing field even enough to make it feel like every player has a chance to win.

Fast-paced shenanigans are great, but... fightman games should really discriminate on the basis of skill instead of giving babies welfare wins. I mean, it's fun for a whlie, but dumb gameplay hurts the longevity of the game, and I don't mean just for tournament jerks.

Right there. You keep talking about this "myth" but the divide is real. What you say makes the game broken or bad or whatever is what the rest of us find fun.

And this is the myth coming up again. Brawl didn't have to be so stupid - you could take out really nasty random factors like slips and bob-ombs appearing right in front of you mid-swing and you would still have a great game for wet 'n wild casual mashfests as well as something you could have an elitist fighting game spacelord national competition in. They're not mutually exclusive!!

Tripping sucks, but you can at least turn off bomb-ombs. I don't think Brawl was "dumbed down" so much as to make the game not fun. The way you feel about the game only serves to prove the myth.

[broodwars]

Over the long haul everybody gets helped out and screwed over by the system equally. Individual matches can be dictated by it, though. Still, it's better than something like Mario Kart that gives you more and more help the more you suck.

Reminder that broodwars said "the" match. He will rue this day.

Oh good grief.  This is exactly why I don't like "serious" Smash Bros. players: all this drama over nothing.

Yeah, I said "the match", and I meant "the match" as well as over the long-term.  In my experience, everyone has a shot within a given match.  You may get lucky and have a shot to take and use a powerful item, but that doesn't mean you'll use it effectively or that you'll even be able to reach it before the other players.  You hand an unskilled player a power hammer, and they'll likely dance right off the stage trying to hit you with it.  You hand an unskilled player a Final Smash, and they'll waste it.

A skilled player can keep away from a powerful item until they've either disarmed the opposing player or the item's time limit has run out.  A skilled player can come back from a momentary setback caused by an item.  Unless that means they're truly not "skilled" and the opposing player really isn't a "baby".  Oh dear.

[S-U-P-E-R]

Right there. You keep talking about this "myth" but the divide is real. What you say makes the game broken or bad or whatever is what the rest of us find fun.

Tripping sucks, but you can at least turn off bomb-ombs.

In the same post you say you find these elements fun but they also suck? You lost me.

Did I say item filled four player matches are unfun? No, I love that ****.

But without a bigger, better metagame to move onto, Brawl got old went unplayed, whereas certain other decade-old fighting games are still very fun and interesting to play. What I'm saying here is Brawl doesn't have to lose anything if the game was altered to not be absolutely retarded at a high level of play.

[NWR_insanolord]

I will say, there is definitely skill involved in getting to the items first even with random placement. Whenever we're playing Brawl and a Pokeball or Assist Trophy shows up, no matter where on screen it is, better than 9 times out of 10 my roommate John gets it, and he's definitely the most skilled player among us. And on the rare occasions I'm the one who gets it it's seemingly always Goldeen.

[nickmitch]

Right there. You keep talking about this "myth" but the divide is real. What you say makes the game broken or bad or whatever is what the rest of us find fun.

Tripping sucks, but you can at least turn off bomb-ombs.

In the same post you say you find these elements fun but they also suck? You lost me.

Did I say item filled four player matches are unfun? No, I love that ****.

Tripping: sucks
Random items at random times/locations: fun
Stages randomly attacking you: also fun

[S-U-P-E-R]

Oh good grief.  This is exactly why I don't like "serious" Smash Bros. players: all this drama over nothing.

I don't see any serious Smash players nor drama! I'm just trying to play armchair game designer here and it looks to me like you're trying to hang yourself or something.

Yeah, I said "the match", and I meant "the match" as well as over the long-term.  In my experience, everyone has a shot within a given match.  You may get lucky and have a shot to take and use a powerful item, but that doesn't mean you'll use it effectively or that you'll even be able to reach it before the other players.  You hand an unskilled player a power hammer, and they'll likely dance right off the stage trying to hit you with it.  You hand an unskilled player a Final Smash, and they'll waste it.

A skilled player can keep away from a powerful item until they've either disarmed the opposing player or the item's time limit has run out.  A skilled player can come back from a momentary setback caused by an item.  Unless that means they're truly not "skilled" and the opposing player really isn't a "baby".  Oh dear.

Unfortunately, reality does not jive with your statements here. You don't need to be especially good to end someone with a Smash Ball that just happened to spawn on your end of the stage. Maybe, like, a small child or something will fall off the stage like a god damned idiot, but a pro could easily get destroyed by someone merely competent in a tournament set because of dumb luck.

This is all hypothetical, by the way, because there's roughly zero tournaments for Brawl with items because it is a degenerate dicerolling game.

Now, without items... it's just the same, just not as horrendously bad, because of God Damned Slips. One player could lead a close match, slip, eat a smash and lose, not because he did anything wrong or the other player did anything right, but rather just because of a random number generator. This is bad, degenerate game design and it makes Brawl less interesting and appealing over any extended length of time. I'm pulling for someone to make a better game.

[S-U-P-E-R]

Maybe it would simply things if I said random bullshit can be fun in casuals, but it is the opposite of fun in tournaments, and a Smash game *could* be made to accomodate both.

so every single one except Brawl I guess

[nickmitch]

Yeah, if you make the rules "final destination only, no items." Which is like giving the game a funectomy.

[broodwars]

Unfortunately, reality does not jive with your statements here. You don't need to be especially good to end someone with a Smash Ball that just happened to spawn on your end of the stage.

Considering that you have to hit the Smash Ball something like 5-7 times to activate it and every hit sends it to another part of the screen, yes you do. 

Maybe, like, a small child or something will fall off the stage like a god damned idiot, but a pro could easily get destroyed by someone merely competent in a tournament set because of dumb luck.

In other words, if you're going up against a Pro with an item, his skill surpassed yours in getting to the item and using it first.  So he beats you.  And this is a problem?

This is all hypothetical, by the way, because there's roughly zero tournaments for Brawl with items because it is a degenerate dicerolling game.

Ok, quick poll: does anyone besides this guy give a damn about how this party game fares in a tournament scene?  Does anyone think the vast majority of Smash Bros. players do?  I certainly don't.

This reminds me of what happened with BlazBlue: Calamity Trigger and it sequel Continuum Shift.  In Calamity Trigger, Aksys smartly made the most complex special moves in the game easily performable through Right Stick shortcuts.  Anyone could jump into BlazBlue and easily enjoy the things about the game that made it fun.  But then the tourney players started bitching that anyone could do these button combos that only they could do before, and Aksys removed that feature from Continuum Shift.

The end result is that I can't enjoy the game now because I just lack the ability to type in button/stick sequences like that.  And I didn't even play online!  But my enjoyment of the game was destroyed by people who didn't like the "commoners" being able to compete with them on an issue that never should have been gated off like that to begin with.

That mentality of appealing to the hardcore tourney players is how fighting games have become a gated community where newcomers are not wanted.  It's why I don't play them.

[S-U-P-E-R]

Considering that you have to hit the Smash Ball something like 5-7 times to activate it and every hit sends it to another part of the screen, yes you do. 

No. You can pop it with 1 fresh charged Samus shot/DK punch, or 2 jumping C attacks. And not just Smash balls, but you can get ridiculously good statues/Pokemon that are on par with some final smashes. Do you even play this game?

In other words, if you're going up against a Pro with an item, his skill surpassed yours in getting to the item and using it first.  So he beats you.  And this is a problem?

Yeah man he sure used a lot of skill when the legendary Pokemon fell in his hands

Ok, quick poll: does anyone besides this guy give a damn about how this party game fares in a tournament scene?  Does anyone think the vast majority of Smash Bros. do?  I certainly don't.

There are a lot of people that care about competitive Smash (but not so much for Brawl other than weirdos...). See: smashboards.com and whatever year it was a main event at Evo.

[broodwars]

No. You can pop it with 1 fresh charged Samus shot/DK punch, or 2 jumping C attacks. And not just Smash balls, but you can get ridiculously good statues/Pokemon that are on par with some final smashes. Do you even play this game?

I believe I already answered that question: not in well over 3 years.  However, Samus's charge shot and DK's punch take a fairly long amount of time to charge up, more than enough to give an observant player time to reach you and knock you out of the way before you can use it.  So you either just walk around with a fully charged special, or you have the skill to anticipate the ball and charge up your shot in time to fight off the other players.  Even the 2 "jumping C attacks" is more than the flailing around of a novice player.

I don't pretend to know all the ins and outs of Smash Bros. like you do, to the extent where I obsess over them on message boards.  I'm sure you are more skilled to me.  The difference is, only you care about that.  I play the game to have fun, and fun I have in the matches I've played.

Don't you have frames to go count somewhere or something?

[nickmitch]

Getting a little rude there, bud.

[broodwars]

Getting a little rude there, bud.

That's as far as I plan on going.  I did regret the "life" comment so I tried to remove it, but it looks like S-U-P-E-R saw it first and now it's in stone.  Just remember that I will rue this day I disagreed with a Smash Bros. tourney player!

[S-U-P-E-R]

I believe I already answered that question: not in well over 3 years.  However, Samus's charge shot and DK's punch take a fairly long amount of time to charge up, more than enough to give an observant player time to reach you and knock you out of the way before you can use it.  So you either just walk around with a fully charged special, or you have the skill to anticipate the ball and charge up your shot in time to fight off the other players.  Even the 2 "jumping C attacks" is more than the flailing around of a novice player.

In case you forgot, you can start/stop charging those attacks at whim, and the optimal strategy is in fact to "walk around with a fully charged special" all the time.

Even the 2 "jumping C attacks" is more than the flailing around of a novice player.

wat
 

I don't pretend to know all the ins and outs of Smash Bros. like you do, to the extent where I obsess over them on message boards.  I have a life, after all.  I'm sure you are more skilled to me.  The difference is, only you care about that.  I play the game to have fun, and fun I have in the matches I've played.

Don't you have frames to go count somewhere or something?

Now you're taking shots at me. You're a poor loser and a bad poster. Get banned.

[broodwars]

Now you're taking shots at me. You're a poor loser and a bad poster. Get banned.

I think quite a few people would probably disagree with you on that.  But whatever.  Of the two of us, I'm not the one throwing a temper tantrum because someone disagrees with me.  Either way, I'm done with this argument.  Just bear in mind that the mentality you've displayed is what will kill the Fighting Game genre, and it will kill the Smash Bros. fandom if it came to pass.

[TJ Spyke]

I don't see brood saying anything ban worthy. He is speaking the truth about the game. Tournament players (for basically any game less than 10 years old, the only people playing those are people who tend to play in tournaments) are a very niche crowd, and I don't think it' a good idea for developers to cater to them at the expense of the average person who will play the game.

As far as Smash Bros. game in tournaments, it's laughable when they have rules like "no items" (or certain items turned off), certain stages banned, certain characters banned. It's no different than something like them saying you can't use guns in a FPS. The Smash games were designed with items and random stage events in mind. A good player can win even with this randomness.

[Stogi]

That was entertaining...

As someone who likes to bet on videogames (actually mostly anything, though rarely for money), I got to agree with SUPER. Not so much on the random items everywhere but it would definitely suck to accidentally slip and get smashed out of play.

Then again...after a long "NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!" I probably would start laughing.

Anyway, even though I have Brawl I still end up playing the original the most. In fact, I still play the N64 more than any other system.

Oh and who care's if Sony is copying Smash Brothers. It's flattering.

[broodwars]

I would like to thank S-U-P-E-R for at last giving me something amusing enough to use as my signature.  This is certainly a day I have rued.

[S-U-P-E-R]

Rereading this thread, it seems like people keep trying to put words in my mouth, along the lines of "Smash Bros is super unfun and you're not allowed to have fun unless you play in a tournament!!"

I keep saying, over and over, random zaniness *is* fun (fun also being subjective and I'm not going to tell anyone how to have fun!), but it would be even better if Smash *additionally* had tournament-friendly gameplay. Imagine for a second if Brawl just had a single *option* to turn slips/random-tournament-upsetting-elements off. It would take zero away from the game as-is, and we tournament jerks would get what we percieve to be a viable tournament game and all the fun that that entails. A strong tournament scene attracts lots of new players, not just to tournaments, but casuals and even people that just like to watch. This is a good thing and exactly what has happened with Street Fighter, Marvel, etc.

However, a fighter that has a very limited metagame does not last long and does not attract new players like this. Street Fighter II gets rereleased every couple years and there are still tournaments for that game. What about all the other games from the 90s that weren't as good and weren't competitively viable? Tournament elites didn't kill them; they killed themselves.

I'm still trying to kill fighting games forever so there's a couple of loose ends I still want to tie up.

The Smash games were designed with items and random stage events in mind. A good player can win even with this randomness.

He *can* win, yes, but *will* he? Tournament matches are short enough that a random trip (or stage trap or whatever...) can upset the match. Can you really say the guy who won is the best if he really won just by luck?

BTW broodwars, the rue-this-day comment was meant to be a very lighthearted nod to Galactus in MVC3 and it delights me greatly that you put it in your signature. But I still think your views on random item drops are literally insane.

[S-U-P-E-R]

Also I think if I could actually kill the Smash Bros fandom I would do it

[Chozo Ghost]

This is the reason why I hate game shows like Wheel of Fortune but enjoy watching Jeopardy. I've seen incredibly smart people on Wheel of Fortune lose just because of bad luck and how the wheel spins, but Jeopardy on the other hand has very little to do with luck. On Jeopardy the smartest person wins 99% of the time.

[S-U-P-E-R]

You guys really didn't need to wait until this page to start agreeing with my smart and handsome posts

[Chozo Ghost]

I think its great that Nintendo's games are being used in Tournaments. It reminds me of that movie the Wiz.

[S-U-P-E-R]

The Wizard. Haha, I think that movie was my inspiration. Going to tournaments is far and away the most fun I've had playing video games. not Smash tournaments, I swear!