Author Topic: Another Capcom mistake? Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom 3  (Read 18500 times)

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Offline S-U-P-E-R

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Re: Another Capcom mistake? Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom 3
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2011, 09:57:51 PM »
I don't understand this . . .  They didn't need to package this as a whole new game. It could have been DLC.

I'm pretty sure that was the plan to start with, but I'm guessing they took a look at it while they were doing it and decided a disc release made more sense. 12 characters, 8 stages, spectator mode + whatever else they put in, and an overhaul of the x-factor system would either cost a lot more than $40 via dlc or just not happen at all.

Offline Morari

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Re: Another Capcom mistake? Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom 3
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2011, 10:08:02 PM »
I don't know why it would cost more as DLC. If anything, it would be cheaper. There is far less overhead in producing DLC, as you cut out the need for physical media and distribution.
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Offline S-U-P-E-R

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Re: Another Capcom mistake? Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom 3
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2011, 10:17:22 PM »
I don't know why it would cost more as DLC. If anything, it would be cheaper. There is far less overhead in producing DLC, as you cut out the need for physical media and distribution.

Yes, but it would never work out that way in practice. Maybe because Sony and Microsoft control the distribution and have to approve each item individually and want piles of money for it, or whatever. The bottom line is that DLC characters in fighting games are five dollars.

I also suspect that stuff like the DHC glitch can't be patched out for technical reasons, or they would have done it already (it's gone in the comic-con build). So, a new disc is a best way to fix, change, and add every single thing Capcom and/or the fans want at once.

except Megaman, lol

Offline Arbok

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Re: Another Capcom mistake? Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom 3
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2011, 10:30:09 PM »
...and an overhaul of the x-factor system...

Have they mentioned anywhere what their plans are for the x-factor system?
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Re: Another Capcom mistake? Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom 3
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2011, 10:38:20 PM »
In the comic-con build:
Damage is way lower. It may be that it doesn't boost regular attack damage, only super attack damage, or something like that. You can activitate it in the air now. I think Seth Killian said they're still tooling aound with it and it's subject to further change.

Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: Another Capcom mistake? Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom 3
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2011, 11:24:25 PM »
I don't know why it would cost more as DLC. If anything, it would be cheaper. There is far less overhead in producing DLC, as you cut out the need for physical media and distribution.

Maybe because Sony and Microsoft control the distribution and have to approve each item individually and want piles of money for it, or whatever. The bottom line is that DLC characters in fighting games are five dollars.

Only the greedy publishers charged $5 or more for characters. Super Street Fighter IV lets you download the Arcade Edition, which features all of the patches and expansions that the retail release contains. It also features foure new characters. The Arcade Edition download is $15. There is no reason Capcom couldn't have done the same here, unless Marvel Comics didn't want them to do it (or they realized that most people who want the game would rather have paid $15 to download the updates rather than pay $40+ tax for it).
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Offline Morari

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Re: Another Capcom mistake? Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom 3
« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2011, 12:12:51 AM »
I like how Capcom is basically holding popular characters ransom to ensure that fans purchase each incremental update. You want Strider? Better buy Super Marvel vs Capcom 3! Oh, you want Megaman? Just wait for Super Marvel vs Capcom 3: Turdo Championship Edition!
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Offline S-U-P-E-R

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Re: Another Capcom mistake? Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom 3
« Reply #32 on: July 24, 2011, 12:41:36 AM »
Only the greedy publishers charged $5 or more for characters.
Yeah, that would be "all of them"

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Super Street Fighter IV lets you download the Arcade Edition, which features all of the patches and expansions that the retail release contains. It also features foure new characters. The Arcade Edition download is $15. There is no reason Capcom couldn't have done the same here, unless Marvel Comics didn't want them to do it (or they realized that most people who want the game would rather have paid $15 to download the updates rather than pay $40+ tax for it).
The Marvel update is much, much more expansive than the SSF4 update. 12 new characters to 4, 8 new stages to 0, plus the top down changes I talked about. I believe they are adding new moves for some of the existing characters as well. The SSF4 AE update was relatively small compared to the MVC3 update, and comparing them is stupid. MVC3 *needs* a disc release for this scale of update.

Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: Another Capcom mistake? Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom 3
« Reply #33 on: July 24, 2011, 12:54:49 AM »
Only the greedy publishers charged $5 or more for characters.
Yeah, that would be "all of them"

Not quite. Take WWE All-Stars for example. You can get the "All-Time Greats Pack" for $4, which include the characters Hawk, Animal, Chris Jericho, and Jerry Lawler. The "Million Dollar Pack" is $2 and contain Ted DiBiase and Ted DiBiase, Jr. The "American Dream Pack" is $2 and has Dusty Rhodes and Cody Rhodes. That means they basically charge $1 per character. They also have a piece of free DLC that contains a compatibility update as well as a new character in The Honky Tonk Man. So THQ isn't being greedy, $1 is a good price for extra characters (maybe $2).
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Re: Another Capcom mistake? Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom 3
« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2011, 01:22:37 AM »
I haven't played a WWE game in years, so stop me if I'm wrong here, but here's what MVC3 characters have that WWE characters don't:
- voice actors
- unique animations that don't date back to PS1
- careful testing for balance up to tournament level
- associated art and music (endings, etc)
 
It's *easy* to poop out cookie cutter WWE characters that barely play differently from each other, if at all - serious fighting game characters take real effort and resources. Ever wonder why there's no THQ WWE tournament scene?

Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: Another Capcom mistake? Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom 3
« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2011, 01:29:44 AM »
WWE All-Stars are more of an arcade game, so it features new animations. There is voice acting in the game (not every character since some of the wrestles are dead in real life), and there is audio commentary. Not sure about testing for tournaments. Not sure on the art and music since I don't own the game.

People who plain in fighting game tournaments usually play only those games and are not exactly the most sociable. People who tend to play wrestling games are those who watch the show and don't usually compete in tournaments. The characters do play differently.
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Offline S-U-P-E-R

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Re: Another Capcom mistake? Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom 3
« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2011, 01:52:26 AM »
WWE All-Stars are more of an arcade game, so it features new animations. There is voice acting in the game (not every character since some of the wrestles are dead in real life), and there is audio commentary.
I'm watching game video now and the wrestlers aren't talking!

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Not sure about testing for tournaments. Not sure on the art and music since I don't own the game.
I looked it up for you, the answer is no.

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People who plain in fighting game tournaments usually play only those games and are not exactly the most sociable.
Maybe you should go to a tournament or talk to someone who has (me) before you get any more lost in a nightmare world of posting incorrect things you know nothing about. Nice job on the retarded stereotype, by the way.

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The characters do play differently.
  Yeah, no, not so much, I'm seeing recycled moves everywhere outside signature moves.

So, no, you really can't compare $1 wrestling buddies to MVC3 characters, which are much more substantial.

Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: Another Capcom mistake? Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom 3
« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2011, 01:59:04 AM »
Not a ton of voice acting, but the Path of Champions does have voice acting in the cutscenes. You may not like wrestling games, but the effort to put create and put in new characters is no less than other fighting games and still doesn't change the idea that $5 is too much for one character (yet alone $7).
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Offline S-U-P-E-R

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Re: Another Capcom mistake? Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom 3
« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2011, 02:11:29 AM »
the effort to put create and put in new characters is no less than other fighting games and still doesn't change the idea that $5 is too much for one character (yet alone $7).
You are going to have to back this up, because I have already provided a lot of evidence to the contrary. Honestly, you should just admit you are wrong and that it was a bad comparison to make.

Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: Another Capcom mistake? Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom 3
« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2011, 02:14:04 AM »
What evidence? You claim that the characters are worth $5 a piece, I say they aren't. You have not shown $5/$7 is justifiable. You may not like the game or whatever, but THQ has the right pricing model.
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Offline bustin98

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Re: Another Capcom mistake? Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom 3
« Reply #40 on: July 24, 2011, 02:26:02 AM »
In a world where a Rock Band song is $1.99 and a Call of Duty map pack is $15, I feel inclinded to feel that $5 for a character is a bit much. 7 or 8 characters for $15 would seem more logical.

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Re: Another Capcom mistake? Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom 3
« Reply #41 on: July 24, 2011, 02:43:40 AM »
What I "claimed" was the $5 price point is the standard for fighting game characters and you can't equate janky WWE DLC characters with them.
 
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What evidence?

I haven't played a WWE game in years, so stop me if I'm wrong here, but here's what MVC3 characters have that WWE characters don't:
- voice actors
- unique animations that don't date back to PS1
- careful testing for balance up to tournament level
- associated art and music (endings, etc)
 
It's *easy* to poop out cookie cutter WWE characters that barely play differently from each other, if at all - serious fighting game characters take real effort and resources. Ever wonder why there's no THQ WWE tournament scene?

WWE All-Stars are more of an arcade game, so it features new animations. There is voice acting in the game (not every character since some of the wrestles are dead in real life), and there is audio commentary.
I'm watching game video now and the wrestlers aren't talking!

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Not sure about testing for tournaments. Not sure on the art and music since I don't own the game.
I looked it up for you, the answer is no.

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The characters do play differently.
  Yeah, no, not so much, I'm seeing recycled moves everywhere outside signature moves.

Did you know??:
Every punch and kick of an MVC3 character is a unique animation made for just that character!
Every character has *several minutes* of unique lines that they use *in matches*. And in two different languages if they're from the Capcom side, unless they are the dog or something
Every character has rigorous testing and reworking for game balance!
Every character has unique music composed for them, unique hand-drawn comic style endings, and a bunch of words written by Marvel writer Frank Tieri.
 
WWE guys have none of these things. I'm sure we have our own opinions about how much MVC3 guys are worth, but it is obvious it's more than a dollar, which I think is appropriate for a WWE character.

Offline Adrock

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Re: Another Capcom mistake? Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom 3
« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2011, 11:21:32 AM »
It also features foure new characters.
More like 3. Only a masochist would call Evil Ryu a new character and gladly pay money for him. I'd probably say the same for Oni AKA Shin Akuma Plus. So more like 2...... Yes, I'm joking (kind of). Companies get away with this because the people are all like

Every punch and kick of an MVC3 character is a unique animation made for just that character!
I agree for this very reason. Wrestling moves are mo-capped if I remember correctly and a DDT is still a DDT, a leg drop is still a leg drop etc. They most likely use the same animation for every wrestler (entertainer according to VKM?) who uses the moves.

Just to jump in then descend back into the shadows. I don't think UMvC3 is comparable to Arcade Edition. It's far more comparable to SSFIV. The update is too extensive for DLC. That doesn't make it any less shitty for the people who bought the original game just a few months ago, but who really didn't see this coming? I kept insisting to a friend of mine to not buy Marvel vs. Capcom 3 because I was confident Capcom would release a new "Super/Turbo" version and he said "Capcom never did this with the previous Marvel vs. Capcom games..." Poor, deluded fool.

Offline broodwars

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Re: Another Capcom mistake? Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom 3
« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2011, 03:07:05 PM »
Every character has rigorous testing and reworking for game balance!

Oh how cute.  Someone actually thinks Marvel vs. Capcom 3 is balanced.  Clearly, you've never run into a Sentinel or Dark Phoenix player.  I'm also amused that you think the game was "rigorously tested" considering all the exploits players have found for infinite combos.  I also found the netcode for MvC3 pretty terrible in the time I spent online.  I never could get even the most basic player Search to return a single game.  I could only ever get a game through the extremely terrible Lobbies.

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unique hand-drawn comic style endings, and a bunch of words written by Marvel writer Frank Tieri.

Ok, let's make one thing clear about these "endings": they're one or two pieces of artwork with some text that advances to the next piece of artwork.  That's hardly an "ending", especially considering what I've heard of Super Street Fighter 4's FMV endings.  It's not like Capcom really went all out on them.  Like so much of MvC3, Capcom put as little effort into them as they thought they could get away with.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 03:20:33 PM by broodwars »
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Offline S-U-P-E-R

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Re: Another Capcom mistake? Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom 3
« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2011, 03:56:44 PM »
Oh how cute.  Someone actually thinks Marvel vs. Capcom 3 is balanced.  Clearly, you've never run into a Sentinel or Dark Phoenix player.  I'm also amused that you think the game was "rigorously tested" considering all the exploits players have found for infinite combos.
You're aware I play in tournaments, right? That I know the game inside out? That I know the ins and outs of all the matchups? Maybe you could tell me all about it since you know so much about the game and are such a great poster. Hint: you are wrong about Sentinel and infinites.

While the balance isn't perfect, no fighting game is, and in reality it's somewhere between SSF4 and MK9. The point I was making is this sort of thought doesn't even go into WWE characters at all.

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I also found the netcode for MvC3 pretty terrible in the time I spent online.  I never could get even the most basic player Search to return a single game.  I could only ever get a game through the extremely terrible Lobbies.
I will admit the search is janky. The remedy is to set it to auto-match while in practice or arcade mode - it'll get you matches quick, one after another (whereas MK9 desyncs and shits itself all the time).

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Ok, let's make one thing clear about these "endings": they're one or two pieces of artwork with some text that advances to the next piece of artwork.  That's hardly an "ending", especially considering what I've heard of Super Street Fighter 4's FMV endings.  It's not like Capcom really went all out on them.  Like so much of MvC3, Capcom put as little effort into them as they thought they could get away with.

It's much more than what WWE has, which was my point.

Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: Another Capcom mistake? Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom 3
« Reply #45 on: July 24, 2011, 04:11:30 PM »
Actually, Marvel vs. Capcom 3 does have infinite combos and not hard to find. As for balance, apparently you do not know as much as you think you do. Capcom even had to patch the game a month after release to fix some balance issues (one of the changes was Sentinel having his health reduced by 31%). And just because you play in tournaments doesn't mean you know the game inside and out, many tournaments are open to anyone who wants to play.
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Offline S-U-P-E-R

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Re: Another Capcom mistake? Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom 3
« Reply #46 on: July 24, 2011, 04:31:17 PM »
Actually, Marvel vs. Capcom 3 does have infinite combos and not hard to find.

The Akuma and Captain America infinites were taken out. Captain America was considered a pretty low tier character even *with* his infinite. Infinite combos are literally a non-issue in this game, since it's relatively easy to 100% combo in this game without infinites, if there even are any left in the game. I can't remember if the Deadpool bolo loop lets you go further than like 12 reps or not.

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As for balance, apparently you do not know as much as you think you do. Capcom even had to patch the game a month after release to fix some balance issues (one of the changes was Sentinel having his health reduced by 31%).
Part of the reason why Sentinel is no longer considered top, but it wasn't really a super big change since it didn't change his ridiculous damage output. Also, I can't believe neither of you guys have brought up Wolverine yet, the actual best character right now.

Oh, and another thing: SF4, SSF4 and MK9 also had patches out the first month, MVC3 isn't special in this regard. And it's also not like the game was broken for Sentinel having 1.25 million health, he still had unfavorable matchups with a number of the other characters.

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And just because you play in tournaments doesn't mean you know the game inside and out, many tournaments are open to anyone who wants to play.
Maybe I should have mentioned that I've won most tournaments in my state, placed 2nd in the ones I didn't win, and that I have taken matches off of Viscant. Do you know who that is?

Offline broodwars

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Re: Another Capcom mistake? Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom 3
« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2011, 04:36:58 PM »
The fact that there are "Tiers" at all should clue you in that the game's not balanced, which is alright by me if that's what Capcom was going for.  If the game were truly balanced, every character would be used more or less equally.  There would be no "low tier" or "top tier" characters.

Something else that pissed me off about the netcode, too, is that there doesn't seem to be any countermeasures in place to deal with Rage Quitters.  My very first game online, I managed a come-from-behind victory against another player using an X-Factor.  Just as I deal the finishing blow, the asshole yanks his internet connection.  I get kicked out and not only do I not get a Win, but he didn't get a Loss, and the game didn't even register that the game had existed.  That's just B.S.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 04:39:27 PM by broodwars »
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Re: Another Capcom mistake? Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom 3
« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2011, 04:56:22 PM »
The fact that there are "Tiers" at all should clue you in that the game's not balanced, which is alright by me if that's what Capcom was going for.  If the game were truly balanced, every character would be used more or less equally.  There would be no "low tier" or "top tier" characters.
Uh, every single fighting game has tiers, and MVC3 is less harsh than a great deal of them. It is literally impossible to make a fighting game where every character is "perfectly" balanced without making them all the exact same character. I've played that game, and it blows. Pretty much every character in MVC3 has a fighting chance, which is more than you can say for a lot of other fighting games... anyway, the character matchups in MVC3 are reasonably tight.

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Something else that pissed me off about the netcode, too, is that there doesn't seem to be any countermeasures in place to deal with Rage Quitters.  My very first game online, I managed a come-from-behind victory against another player using an X-Factor.  Just as I deal the finishing blow, the asshole yanks his internet connection.  I get kicked out and not only do I not get a Win, but he didn't get a Loss, and the game didn't even register that the game had existed.  That's just B.S.
Uh, actually, it sinks their blue rank up bar really hard. You generally don't get ragequitters after fighter rank, because they stay there, even if their record is 1000-0.

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Re: Another Capcom mistake? Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom 3
« Reply #49 on: July 24, 2011, 09:19:35 PM »
I figure they've got a few turbos, supers, hypers, and a tournament edition to add before they finish updating.
Super Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 Hyper Turbo Tournament Edition. (DLC costumes sold seperately)

I hate these updates and wish they just did balancing and released a number 4 when they got enough new characters and stages ready.