Author Topic: Nintendo 3DS Takes Piracy Prevention 'A Step Further'  (Read 18962 times)

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Offline UncleBob

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Re: Nintendo 3DS Takes Piracy Prevention 'A Step Further'
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2010, 07:08:10 PM »
I'm not in favor of a system where Nintendo can "brick" a device from afar with a flip of a switch.

What I'm looking for is something where if you run a program on your 3DS that specifically tells your 3DS to go into brick mode, then it does it.  If you don't want your DS to go into brick mode, then, obviously, don't run programs that do that.  Likewise, if you don't want to format your hard drive, don't run a program that formats your hard drive.

Of course, no Authorized Nintendo programs would contain this code.  So long as you follow the directions and only use/download authorized Nintendo programs, you'll be fine.  However, it's completely unfair and unrealistic to expect Nintendo to build and cater the device around what unauthorized programs any individuals may try to run on it.
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Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: Nintendo 3DS Takes Piracy Prevention 'A Step Further'
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2010, 07:12:06 PM »
I am all for a system that will automatically brick a system if unauthorized programs are run. People have hack their systems won't have any right to complain, and all licensed games will be thoroughly tested to make sure they don't cause problems.
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Offline Mop it up

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Re: Nintendo 3DS Takes Piracy Prevention 'A Step Further'
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2010, 07:28:21 PM »
Well, maybe if Nintendo designed a better user interface, one which didn't do things like restrict which save data cold be copied, and if they had more games with user-created features, people wouldn't have a need to hack...

Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: Nintendo 3DS Takes Piracy Prevention 'A Step Further'
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2010, 08:03:44 PM »
If Sony makes a PSP 2, I wouldn't be surprised if they use this technology. The piracy on the PlayStation Portable is worse than any other system I have seen.
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Offline Deguello

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Re: Nintendo 3DS Takes Piracy Prevention 'A Step Further'
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2010, 08:40:12 PM »
Well, maybe if Nintendo designed a better user interface, one which didn't do things like restrict which save data cold be copied, and if they had more games with user-created features, people wouldn't have a need to hack...

People would hack stuff just because they can.  Rationalizing it doesn't prove any point.  Some guys will hack it just to put Linux on it for the hell of it.
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Offline Ymeegod

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Re: Nintendo 3DS Takes Piracy Prevention 'A Step Further'
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2010, 09:10:26 PM »
Also, I'm all for it as well.  Pirating is getting worse not better so it's time to get tough.

There's some things I like nintendo to fix, namely getting rid of regional lock. 


Offline Mop it up

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Re: Nintendo 3DS Takes Piracy Prevention 'A Step Further'
« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2010, 09:14:55 PM »
People would hack stuff just because they can.  Rationalizing it doesn't prove any point.  Some guys will hack it just to put Linux on it for the hell of it.
That's true. People wouldn't need to do it though, and so I think less people would.

Offline UncleBob

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Re: Nintendo 3DS Takes Piracy Prevention 'A Step Further'
« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2010, 11:12:52 PM »
Well, maybe if Nintendo designed a better user interface, one which didn't do things like restrict which save data cold be copied, and if they had more games with user-created features, people wouldn't have a need to hack...

You know, if it was just things like the locked game saves and the real homebrew (and not the "homebrew"), I would be surprised if Nintendo (or any other company) gave two poops of raisins about what's done by users with their own systems.  This is just another way that a select few individuals who feel they are privileged and deserve to take what they want, when they want it, how they want it - the law and the IP owners be damned - these individuals ruin things for everyone.
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Offline oohhboy

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Re: Nintendo 3DS Takes Piracy Prevention 'A Step Further'
« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2010, 01:39:02 AM »
I am all for a system that will automatically brick a system if unauthorised programs are run. People have hack their systems won't have any right to complain, and all licensed games will be thoroughly tested to make sure they don't cause problems.

Hahahahaha, sorry I had to laugh. Did you know that Q and A i the very last line in the budget when it comes to making a game and the very first line when it comes to cuts? I would bet real money that some company, even possibly Nintendo themselves, should such a mechanism be implemented, would brick your system with a legit game.

Also what about counterfeit games? For all intents and purposes they look, feel, and seem legit when you buy them thinking its a second hand/new game. Would you feel happy that your system got bricked because you got conned into purchasing a game that you thought was legit? You would have been boned twice over with no fault of your own. You would be a victim twice over.

We have all heard the stories of DRM gone wrong with games from Ubisoft shitting a brick because it missed a packet. Sony Music CDs rootkitting your computer. Securom denying access to legitimate users to their own game. Hell, even Steam freaks out once in a while. If such reversible, widely used DRM can go wrong, just imagine a potential mayhem with something as irreversible as an eFuse.

If Sony makes a PSP 2, I wouldn't be surprised if they use this technology. The piracy on the PlayStation Portable is worse than any other system I have seen.

The PSP has system updates all the time, sometimes things go wrong. Instead of going it to recovery mode, they now brick themselves. When you update a device, you always run the risk of bricking it and to increase the chance of that happening runs contrary making a solid product. This is especially true of Nintendo who have a long and illustrious history of making basically bomb/kid survivable products.

What about unlocking an iPhone for use in your country? A side effect this is that you can now run non-app store code. You are opening up a perfectly legitimate function on a device that was locked to reduce competition, in the process, which is unavoidable allows for the potential to run open software.

I have unlocked an iPhone before, but they also gives you the funniest thing, a rival app store that contains mostly free open software.

What I'm looking for is something where if you run a program on your 3DS that specifically tells your 3DS to go into brick mode, then it does it.  If you don't want your DS to go into brick mode, then, obviously, don't run programs that do that.  Likewise, if you don't want to format your hard drive, don't run a program that formats your hard drive.

Of course, no Authorized Nintendo programs would contain this code.  So long as you follow the directions and only use/download authorized Nintendo programs, you'll be fine.  However, it's completely unfair and unrealistic to expect Nintendo to build and cater the device around what unauthorized programs any individuals may try to run on it.

You can always take a hammer your DS, that would brick it. You could flush it with water, although for Nintendo products, that isn't a very reliable way of destroying them. It would seem backwards for Nintendo to pay for a feature, just so users have one more way of destroying their consoles, when what Nintendo wants is for you to use their device.

Nintendo may have built the device, but they most certainly didn't "cater" for unlicensed software. Code is code. They build a device, it runs signed code. If you want to run unsigned code on it, you are the one who has to take extra steps, not Nintendo.

Pirates are all potential customers. They don't cost Nintendo any money. Like shares that fall in price, these losses aren't realised until you cash them out and Nintendo could never metaphorically cash out. But they can and some do buy games. They like any other gamer go out and sing praises for games good or so bad it's good. These gains are real, but the losses aren't.

The real problem is counterfeiters. This cost Nintendo real money. If a user buys counterfeit software willingly or even more importantly unknowingly, would that user be willing to spend even more money feeling they have already been burned once? or would they more likely continue playing not caring or knowing at the end of the day?
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Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: Nintendo 3DS Takes Piracy Prevention 'A Step Further'
« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2010, 02:29:11 AM »
Hahahahaha, sorry I had to laugh. Did you know that Q and A i the very last line in the budget when it comes to making a game and the very first line when it comes to cuts? I would bet real money that some company, even possibly Nintendo themselves, should such a mechanism be implemented, would brick your system with a legit game.

Yeah, I doubt that Nintendo or the publishers would let a huge flaw like that from getting through (ESPECIALLY Nintendo, who do tons of QA for games).

Also what about counterfeit games? For all intents and purposes they look, feel, and seem legit when you buy them thinking its a second hand/new game. Would you feel happy that your system got bricked because you got conned into purchasing a game that you thought was legit? You would have been boned twice over with no fault of your own. You would be a victim twice over.

First, I only buy video games from retail stores (i.e. GameStop, Walmart, Toys R Us) or Amazon (Amazon itself, not a third party on Amazon), so my games are always legit unless Walmart decides to start selling counterfeit games. As for other people, that is their problem. Take GBA games on eBay as an example, the majority of those were counterfeit games made in Taiwan; you knew you were taking a chance and you only have yourself to blame if they don't work. Buy your games from reputable sellers and it won't be a issue.

We have all heard the stories of DRM gone wrong with games from Ubisoft ****ting a brick because it missed a packet. Sony Music CDs rootkitting your computer. Securom denying access to legitimate users to their own game. Hell, even Steam freaks out once in a while. If such reversible, widely used DRM can go wrong, just imagine a potential mayhem with something as irreversible as an eFuse.

First, IIRC the Sony one got the company sued because what they were doing was ruled illegal (since they didn't inform users of what they were doing. As for something like eFuse, I am confident that Nintendo would do enough thorough testing before using it that it would only brick systems that deserved to be bricked because someone was tampering with it or the game.

The PSP has system updates all the time, sometimes things go wrong. Instead of going it to recovery mode, they now brick themselves. When you update a device, you always run the risk of bricking it and to increase the chance of that happening runs contrary making a solid product. This is especially true of Nintendo who have a long and illustrious history of making basically bomb/kid survivable products.

What about unlocking an iPhone for use in your country? A side effect this is that you can now run non-app store code. You are opening up a perfectly legitimate function on a device that was locked to reduce competition, in the process, which is unavoidable allows for the potential to run open software.

I have unlocked an iPhone before, but they also gives you the funniest thing, a rival app store that contains mostly free open software.

This is why I support something like eFuse. People tampering with their iPhone/iPod Touch and then bitching when a update bricks or otherwise damages their system. Apple has the legal right to decide what software can be used on their devices, same with Nintendo/Sony/Microsoft. If that means bricking systems that try and get around this, so be it. I am all for indy games, but all three console manufacturers provide support for that now.

I am willing to admit that there is potential risk in something like eFuse, but if it can help cut down on piracy and counterfeiting (unfortunately that will always exist), then I think it could be good for both publishers and consumers in the long run.
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Nintendo 3DS Takes Piracy Prevention 'A Step Further'
« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2010, 02:46:16 AM »
I highly doubt something like that would hold up in court. If Nintendo had a legal argument against people running unauthorized software they'd have been able to get devices like the R4 banned. They can make it hard to do, but they can't brick the device you bought (I don't buy the whole "software is just a license and not an actual good" argument, but you can't seriously argue that when I buy a piece of hardware I don't actually own the hardware) just for doing something with it they don't like.
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Offline UncleBob

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Re: Nintendo 3DS Takes Piracy Prevention 'A Step Further'
« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2010, 02:52:37 AM »
I highly doubt something like that would hold up in court. If Nintendo had a legal argument against people running unauthorized software they'd have been able to get devices like the R4 banned. They can make it hard to do, but they can't brick the device you bought (I don't buy the whole "software is just a license and not an actual good" argument, but you can't seriously argue that when I buy a piece of hardware I don't actually own the hardware) just for doing something with it they don't like.

If you use a product in a manner that is inconsistent with the instructions and that product breaks, you think the manufacturer of the product should be held liable?

Pirates [...] don't cost Nintendo any money.

See, this is just where we're going to have to disagree.

Now, I'll agree that it's hard to quantify how much money piracy really costs.
I'll agree that it's not a 1:1 ratio on sales vs. piracy.

But if you want me to believe that piracy doesn't cost Nintendo (or any other companies) any money... you're full of it.

Let's say it's something as simple as, say, someone downloading a copy of Mario Kart DS.  Let's say there's absolutely no way in heck this person would ever, ever buy Mario Kart DS.  Nintendo lost no money, right?

So, what happens when this copy of Mario Kart DS, which has never been paid for, goes online, using Nintendo's servers?  I assume magic faeries cover the costs?

Piracy costs publishers money.  You can argue how significant the amount is.  You can say you don't care.  But when you say it's $0, you are wrong.
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Nintendo 3DS Takes Piracy Prevention 'A Step Further'
« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2010, 03:00:31 AM »
I highly doubt something like that would hold up in court. If Nintendo had a legal argument against people running unauthorized software they'd have been able to get devices like the R4 banned. They can make it hard to do, but they can't brick the device you bought (I don't buy the whole "software is just a license and not an actual good" argument, but you can't seriously argue that when I buy a piece of hardware I don't actually own the hardware) just for doing something with it they don't like.

If you use a product in a manner that is inconsistent with the instructions and that product breaks, you think the manufacturer of the product should be held liable?

If the manufacturer intentionally bricked the product because I did something with it they didn't like that may or may not be legal, but they're in no position to know which, then you're damn right they should be held liable.
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Offline UncleBob

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Re: Nintendo 3DS Takes Piracy Prevention 'A Step Further'
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2010, 03:10:51 AM »
I highly doubt something like that would hold up in court. If Nintendo had a legal argument against people running unauthorized software they'd have been able to get devices like the R4 banned. They can make it hard to do, but they can't brick the device you bought (I don't buy the whole "software is just a license and not an actual good" argument, but you can't seriously argue that when I buy a piece of hardware I don't actually own the hardware) just for doing something with it they don't like.

If you use a product in a manner that is inconsistent with the instructions and that product breaks, you think the manufacturer of the product should be held liable?

If the manufacturer intentionally bricked the product because I did something with it they didn't like that may or may not be legal, but they're in no position to know which, then you're damn right they should be held liable.

With the system I'm imagining, the manufacturer did not brick the system.  *You* downloaded and ran code that commanded the system to brick itself.  Not the manufacturer.

Do you blame IBM because you typed "format C:" at the DOS prompt?

If you obtain and execute a program that the manufacturer warns you against doing, I don't think you can blame the manufacturer when something goes wrong.
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Nintendo 3DS Takes Piracy Prevention 'A Step Further'
« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2010, 03:21:09 AM »
Even if that argument were to hold up in court, which I'm not convinced it would, that would require Nintendo to clearly and explicitly warn people not to do it. I think that would be a bad move on Nintendo's part. Hackers will find a way around this measure, because they always do, and all Nintendo's warning would serve to do is inform DS owners that it's possible to do those things, calling attention to an issue Nintendo would most likely prefer not to be that publicly known.
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Offline oohhboy

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Re: Nintendo 3DS Takes Piracy Prevention 'A Step Further'
« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2010, 03:30:52 AM »
So you are willing to destroy the second hand market, collateral damage be damned in order to increase the risks to yourself that should you ever accidentally load a illegitimate/buggy game or a bad/incomplete legitimate update bricking your system in order to serve a company, which in at the end of the day really couldn't give shits about any one individual user just so they can make more money at the expense of your rights as a consumer.

Companies do not have the right to dictate what code can or cannot run on your device. They have an imperative to prevent you from doing so, but they do not have the right. The consumer, purchasing the device as a good, can do what they wish to do to it. Whether such actions lead to copyright infringement is irrelevant. The device is a physical item, a good, not a service.

As for the Q and A, once again you believe publishers care or are univerially compentant. http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=13338

Games have released that are outright broken, saves not working, blatantly glitchy. Q and A isn't some magical place where you send your games that come back fixed. http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/23388/Feature_Quality_Quality_Assurance.php

Bricking also isn't comparable to formatting. Sure you lose the data if you format and if your willing to go through the expensive or have the know how, recover the data. However bricking would be irreversible. You format your computer, you can still use and reload the data if you have a backup. It is still functional computer. Bricking is called bricking because it renders your device as useful as a brick.
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Offline UncleBob

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Re: Nintendo 3DS Takes Piracy Prevention 'A Step Further'
« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2010, 03:42:24 AM »
Even if that argument were to hold up in court, which I'm not convinced it would, that would require Nintendo to clearly and explicitly warn people not to do it. I think that would be a bad move on Nintendo's part. Hackers will find a way around this measure, because they always do, and all Nintendo's warning would serve to do is inform DS owners that it's possible to do those things, calling attention to an issue Nintendo would most likely prefer not to be that publicly known.

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This warranty shall not apply if this product: (a) is used with products not sold or licensed by Nintendo (including, but not limited to, Non-Licensed Game Enhancement and Copier Devices, adapters, software,  and power supplies [...]; (c) is modified or tampered with;[...]

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You mean warnings like that?

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I am under no illusion that Nintendo loves me.  If so, I would expect them to mail me free games instead of making me buy them.

I have faith in Nintendo that if I were to legally obtain an officially licensed game that bricked my system that Nintendo would repair/replace.

And you are correct - companies can not dictate what code I can or cannot run on my device.  So, if I'm stupid enough to download and execute code on my device that bricks it, then that's my decision and my fault.  The company can make recommendations - and if I choose to follow them or not is up to me.  But if I don't, then I can't blame the company because I'm an idiot and did the exact opposite of what they suggested.
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Offline MegaByte

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Re: Nintendo 3DS Takes Piracy Prevention 'A Step Further'
« Reply #42 on: July 18, 2010, 04:25:06 AM »
Do you blame IBM because you typed "format C:" at the DOS prompt?
This is an utterly ridiculous comparison.  One more analogous to your proposal is, Do you blame IBM because you typed "wolf3d" at the DOS prompt, and the computer instead executed "format C:"?  Damn straight you do.  If you did actually type "format C:" then no, they should not be responsible (as long as they provided you with a way to reinstall the original software!).  As oohhboy has pointed out, Nintendo sells hardware.  They have the right to do whatever necessary to prevent piracy short of denying you access to advertised functionality.  If they want it otherwise, then they should rent the hardware instead (and see how far they get with that).  Banning you from online service for hacking the online component of a game is fine -- that's a service.  Denying warranty service after you ran a virus is fine.  Programming in a way to have your system break on purpose is not.
For a car analogy, you're basically saying if Ford sold you a car, but said you couldn't use it on dirt roads (because say some smugglers use dirt roads), you'd be okay with the engine automatically filling with salt if you did decide to drive it on a dirt road.  That's simply unconscionable.  People are able to modify other equipment such as cars -- yes, it may void the warranty, but it doesn't give the original manufacturer the right to actively disable other functionality.  In other industries, you actually want some people using your equipment the "wrong" way because it leads to innovation and the potential for new customers.  In the end, a system like this will only end up inadvertently hurting consumers since as you said, the pirates will probably find a way around it anyway.
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Offline oohhboy

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Re: Nintendo 3DS Takes Piracy Prevention 'A Step Further'
« Reply #43 on: July 18, 2010, 04:45:46 AM »
I am under no illusion that Nintendo loves me.  If so, I would expect them to mail me free games instead of making me buy them.

I have faith in Nintendo that if I were to legally obtain an officially licensed game that bricked my system that Nintendo would repair/replace.

And you are correct - companies can not dictate what code I can or cannot run on my device.  So, if I'm stupid enough to download and execute code on my device that bricks it, then that's my decision and my fault.  The company can make recommendations - and if I choose to follow them or not is up to me.  But if I don't, then I can't blame the company because I'm an idiot and did the exact opposite of what they suggested.

It's one thing to run code that bricks your device, but it is another thing to brick your device because you ran any other code at all. By allowing them to brick your device by running any other code, even as harmless as "Hello World", you forfeit the ability to so, even under your own risk. Which is where we are today.

Nintendo would more than likely replace your device should they brick it through legit software. Again, how would you prove that the game bricked your system when you can't reproduce it without buying a new device and bricking that assuming you knew what bricked it in the first place. It's bad enough these days with a lot of software making the end user bug testers, but with the potential penalty being a bricking? Why should I have to bear such risks.

I can understand your faith in Nintendo, they have a general history of doing what is both right and happy for the average consumer. But it's just that faith. That same faith and I suspect crack keeps people buying 360s endlessly throughout the RROD fiasco. Sticky misaligned faced buttons on the PSP. Bungled Nintendo online network?

But this issue is bigger than Nintendo. It's bigger than the big three. It's bigger than computing. It questions the very definition of what is a good and what is a service.

If you brought a muffin, and you for what ever reason decided to shove it up your arse. Does the baker have the right to tell you not to shove that muffin up your arse? Does he have the right to tell you not to feed the hobo that is standing outside the store? Does he have the right to tell you to eat the muffin in a certain way? Does he have the right to place a poison pill inside the muffin to force you to use a special device in order to remove the poison so you can eat the muffin without, in this case dying.

Is the Baker required to tell you not to shove that muffin up your arse? No. Is the baker required to make an edible muffin regardless of taste if he wishes to continue selling muffins? Yes. Does the baker have to outline every time you buy one, how you can and cannot use your muffin. No.
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Offline Shorty McNostril

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Re: Nintendo 3DS Takes Piracy Prevention 'A Step Further'
« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2010, 05:57:58 AM »
There is no way a company with any fraction of a modicum of grey matter at all would implement this in a wide scale device such as a 3DS.  Think of the potential disasters.  One mistake, one slip through the cracks and there is potential for millions of devices to be ruined.  Sure, Nintendo has good rep for QA, but they are surely not infallible. 

Look at the whole IPhone 4 fiasco for example.  Something as simple as holding the phone a certain way causes problems.  Now if something that simple can get through testing and QA, (from Apple themselves I might add) do you really think this could be 100% fool proof?

What if a 3rd party does it?  There procedures are surely a lot looser than Nintendos are.  And it won't be as simple to fix as sending out free covers either.

Offline Deguello

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Re: Nintendo 3DS Takes Piracy Prevention 'A Step Further'
« Reply #45 on: July 18, 2010, 07:27:54 AM »
There's already precedent for software manufacturers dictating how and when you can use their products.

Steam by default requires you to be online to play games because it verifies them on launch.  They somehow get to regulate what you do with a machine that isn't even their product.  If your argument is that the data involved is not a good, but rather a service like Steam, then it can be argued that the whole "software" part of the hardware/software relationship is a service, meaning that the devices actual intended use (running software) is a service itself, which a company can stop without prior notice as is their right (you can seek redress, but that burden is on you, not the company.) 

So the "good" is just the machine itself and thus it is only required to exist and manipulate electricity, and the carts which receive electricity.  The "service" is the non-good data in the machine itself and the data on the card and subject to the provider's whim to let you access (as is the case with Steam), and while illegal to stop it for false reasons, the onus is on the affected party to seek redress, which the content provider is banking on nobody doing out of intimidation of taking on a large company or realizing they'd have to admit to piracy at the outset and would immediately lose said lawsuit.
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Offline Ymeegod

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Re: Nintendo 3DS Takes Piracy Prevention 'A Step Further'
« Reply #46 on: July 18, 2010, 07:41:48 AM »
Also agree that oohhboy is wrong with that whole pirating isn't hurting anybody.  It spreads from one user to the next, at first a few people might be doing it but if unchecked then millions more will follow. 

You're theory about "it's a good and not a service" doesn't hold up as well.  There's clearly a service agreement when you purchase the console, if you disagree, fine go make your own nothing stopping you.  Any company has the right to protect it's profits. 

Offline oohhboy

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Re: Nintendo 3DS Takes Piracy Prevention 'A Step Further'
« Reply #47 on: July 18, 2010, 11:13:28 AM »
Lets back up a little. What if the device was a record player which plays LPs. When you brought the record, the store clerk didn't make you sign anything. Money changed hands, product changed hands. A simple transaction. You now own that LP. While you don't own the copyright of the music on the LP, you do own that copy of the recording.

What would happen if you made and recorded your own music to play on that LP. Is that wrong? I am not arguing whether piracy is right or wrong, that has been established. The question is whether I am allowed to play my own music or music from some third party without interference from the record player's manufacturer, especially if said interferrence destroys or redenders the player unusable. The answer is of course I have that right.

Instead of electricity, it's vibrations holding that data. Yet the same would hold true if the record player ran on and was base on electricity.

So the "good" is just the machine itself and thus it is only required to exist and manipulate electricity, and the carts which receive electricity.  The "service" is the non-good data in the machine itself and the data on the card and subject to the provider's whim to let you access (as is the case with Steam), and while illegal to stop it for false reasons, the onus is on the affected party to seek redress, which the content provider is banking on nobody doing out of intimidation of taking on a large company or realizing they'd have to admit to piracy at the outset and would immediately lose said lawsuit.

There is a very significant difference between Steam and a brickable DS. Steam will not brick your machine should you use a non-steam product. Nor could they ban your account should you commit a crime unrelated to Steam, civil or criminal. So even if you committed piracy without using Steam, even if it was a game available on Steam you would still win access to your account. Of course you would potentially have to answer for your crimes, however, Valve would have to explain themselves as to why they had so much access to the users personal data in order to make the claim in the first place. It's a MAD scenario. Both sides would lose. Your problem would be civil, while theirs would be federal. It's a line they can't cross.

I brickable console would cross that line. With Steam, the games would be considered a service, but convertable to a good. However just because it is a service, it is still considered intellectual property, a form of good. An intangible good. The DS, which is clearly a good, is also partially intellectual property. The look and feel, the boot ROMs contained within, the manufacuring process. Just because a good contains intellectual property, does it, by extenstion render the good a service or vis versa.

Also agree that oohhboy is wrong with that whole pirating isn't hurting anybody.  It spreads from one user to the next, at first a few people might be doing it but if unchecked then millions more will follow. 

You're theory about "it's a good and not a service" doesn't hold up as well.  There's clearly a service agreement when you purchase the console, if you disagree, fine go make your own nothing stopping you.  Any company has the right to protect it's profits. 

When I brought my DS, there was no such "Service agreement". I did not sign anything. It contained warnings about potential health effects like cigarettes. There were no click through agreement, that is assuming such an agreement would ever hold up in court. How an obvious good can be made a service just because one said so is utterly ridiculous. It goes back to the muffin example earlier. There is one minor difference. While the baker has not right or ability to dictate how you use your muffin, a console maker also has no right, but has the technological ability to do so. In essence, write their own laws.

Piracy doesn't hurt anybody because the harm caused and the good it also causes is un-quantifiable. It has the obvious, but immeasurable harm of letting someone use the software without paying. It also functions as an opposing force to the manufacture's want to increase prices, but I am not saying that price is zero as that would make as much sense as setting the price to infinity as a response. By providing, abet unwillingly, free entertainment, reduce crime by keeping people busy. In a perfect world neither copyright infringement or theft would occur, but given the choice as to which one I rather have people commit, I rather have them commit CI.

The above doesn't hold true for counterfeiting. Whether the customer was knowing or otherwise, the customer had placed a price with the counterfeiter drawing that money away from the manufacture would have received. Very real harm has been done. The lost revenue has been actualised, stolen. If the game was faulty and the person didn't know it was a counterfeit, they would blame the manufacture, damaging the brand.

Of course all of the above doesn't ask a very important, overriding question. What happens to the false positives?, and there will be false positives. Instead of saying, no, I will not run this, it bricks itself. What happens if the contact was a little dirty, providing a less than complete connection? The NES or DS will lock up or display an error or garbage. But with the fuse would it mean that when this happens, it would think you are trying to run unsigned code or trying to bypass security. How would it know the difference? It would be the equivalent of shooting someone dead for jay walking or causing a fender bender.

There is reason why nobody has used this fuse for the many years of it's existence, as they cannot answer the question of false positives.
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Offline UncleBob

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Re: Nintendo 3DS Takes Piracy Prevention 'A Step Further'
« Reply #48 on: July 18, 2010, 01:50:12 PM »
Do you blame IBM because you typed "format C:" at the DOS prompt?
This is an utterly ridiculous comparison.  One more analogous to your proposal is, Do you blame IBM because you typed "wolf3d" at the DOS prompt, and the computer instead executed "format C:"?  Damn straight you do.

If I had illegally downloaded what I thought was Wolfenstein, tried to run it and, instead, it formatted my hard drive, no I wouldn't blame IBM.  Because that would be stupid.

I keep reading, over and over, "It's *MY* DS.  I can do what I want with it."

No one is arguing against that.  I agree with you, 100%.  You can do what you want with your DS, even if it's something as stupid as shoving it up your back end.

You bought it - it's your DS.  Do what you want with it.

But don't blame Nintendo when you choose to do something with it that breaks it.
Just some random guy on the internet who has a different opinion of games than you.

Offline MegaByte

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Re: Nintendo 3DS Takes Piracy Prevention 'A Step Further'
« Reply #49 on: July 18, 2010, 02:22:55 PM »
If I had illegally downloaded what I thought was Wolfenstein, tried to run it and, instead, it formatted my hard drive, no I wouldn't blame IBM.  Because that would be stupid.
Of course it would; I'm not arguing with you there.  But what you proposed is if somebody ran legitimate (by iD Software), but not IBM-approved Wolfenstein Shareware, and it instead triggered the system to format the hard drive.  Big difference.
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