Topic: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010

[BlackNMild2k1]

That;s the beauty of the Wii and why you realize the genius of Nintendo when it comes to market research and understanding. You don't have to get up and move around alot with the Wii. Nintendo researched the Wiimote to the point where it was engineered to allow grand gestures covering a large area, subtle movements from the comfort of the couch or any range inbetween. That is a luxury that Sony Wand & Natal do not have.

Natal requires a rather large area in front of the camera just to read your movements properly. Something like 5-6 feet of space. I'm not sure how many people have that kinda space just to capture full body movement. It might be ok for just head tracking(from the couch), but that's not the selling point for Natal now is it?

Wand does spacial tracking, which means you're gonna need to move around the room to get different angles, whether it's left to right or up and down, you're still gonna be moving around. You also have 1:1 3D visual tracking which means that if you need to do certain moves in-game, you're gonna have to do them the same in real life. That's not gonna translate well from the comfort of the couch.

While I appreciate the things that Natal and Wand are gonna bring to the table, I just don't think that those approaches have been as well thought out as the Wiimote when it comes to user operability in all gaming situations.

[KDR_11k]

No, the problem is that publishers act like the Wii market is a total paradox that they could never possibly understand. If they would just release regular games at a high quaity on the system they'd do well, maybe not as good as possible but well anyway. Instead they never make anything that hasn't been done before (especially by Nintendo) and usually mess up on the quality, then wonder why noone wants their third rate knockoff. Instead of thinking what the system doesn't have they look at what it does and try to throw another piece of garbage into that overcrowded arena. Wii Sports? Yes, surely people who got a free set of great but simple sports games want a ton of crappy minigames instead of, say, more fleshed out versions of the sports they got to taste. They complain that Nintendo hogs all the sales but it's their own fault for half-assedly copying what Nintendo has done instead of breaking new ground and sidestepping Nintendo's games entirely.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Another in day in new generation gaming, another exercise in truth posting.

[BlackNMild2k1]

MS demonstrated Natal at GamesCon in Cologne, Germany. Videogamer.com post impressions

Richochet over, Kudo moved onto a racing demo which uses a modified version of EA's Burnout Paradise. There's no controller or racing wheel in sight. Steering the car is a case of putting your arms forward as if holding a steering wheel, while a step forward (as if putting your foot on the gas) accelerates and the same foot back brakes. It seemed to work, but having missed out on the Richochet demo, I had to try it for myself. I shot up and stepped into the driving seat. My hands grasped around an imaginary wheel, I put my right foot forward and the car screeched away. Not actually holding anything in my hands the controls felt slightly unnatural, but amazingly lag was negligible (Microsoft claims a 66ms delay, which is the same as that introduced by a standard controller) and I was able to scream around Paradise City with no problems. Kudo even tried to make me crash by standing beside to me and pretending to drive - somehow Natal knew that it was my actions and not his that it had to monitor.

Well seems good and all, but who is gonna want to hold their hands in the air the whole time especially during an intense and long race? & with one foot placed forward the whole time? I got a coffee table in my livingroom, where am I to find the space?
My bedroom really isn't set up with the required space to play this comfortably either.

Demos over Kudo switched his focus to the technology that makes Natal tick. The Natal sensor combines an RGB camera, infra-red depth sensor, multi array microphone and custom processor, making it possible to not only track the movement of up to four people, but also facial recognition and voice control.

The RGB video camera delivers your standard image (that you get with the current Xbox LIVE Vision camera) and enables functionality including facial recognition - something which could be used to sign into Xbox LIVE. Presumably this will also supply video for video chat and other video and photo functionality. It's the depth sensor, however, that elevates Natal to something special - an infra-red projector combined with a monochrome CMOS sensor (a technology to capture images in digital form) allows Natal to see the room in 3D. What's more it can do this under any lighting conditions, meaning the days of requiring an unnaturally well-lit room in order to play using a camera should be a thing of the past.

Add to this a multiarray microphone which Microsoft says will be able to locate voices around the room and extract ambient noise. This will bring voice control to Xbox 360 and enable users to chat on Xbox LIVE without the need to wear a headset. And all this is held together with a custom processor meaning the fancy motion tracking should not eat into the Xbox 360's horsepower - something demonstrated by the fact Burnout Paradise, a game not developed for Natal, is running with no perceivable negative impact on performance.

This is half the reason why Natal is gonna cost too much for an add-on. Who is gonna pay the rumored $200+ for Natal? then an additional $200+ for an Xbox 360 if you don't already have one? This is a push for the more casual, so who is gonna wanna Jump In @ a starting price of $400 minimum + Software, HDD and a LIVE account?

It's all well and good to have this impressive tech, but what of the games. We've seen how a driving game could work, but how would something like a first-person shooter shape up using Natal? Kudo, obviously well rehearsed on the subject of the FPS, explained how you might one day be shooting down aliens using nothing but your body. For starters you'd position your arms and hands as if holding a gun and you'd aim by pointing the imaginary gun. To move forward you move the gun towards the screen, bring it back to move back. Likewise, moving the gun to either side would strafe. Jump by jumping, knife an enemy by making a slashing motion, throw a grenade by... well, you've got the idea. And what about firing your gun? Use the trigger finger, of course. It's too early to know if this will work when put into practice, but the possibility is certainly there.

I would just refer back to my last post on motion controls. This simply would not work after the first time you play and the novelty wears off. Who wants to have to jump around just to play the game? Not only would that only be fun for the first few times you play and/or show it off to friends, but how many people have that kind of room without painstakingly rearranging the livingroom, den or bedroom everytime you want to play?

[D_Average]

From the article above:

"Sure, much of what has been seen is nothing more than tech demos, but the promise of more is there and, most importantly, the technology works."

Exactly.  "Promise".  Thats all there ever is.  Almost 4 years later, we're still waiting on 3rd parties to create immersive non gimmicky basketball, baseball, and football games for the Wii.  Somthing this is certainely possible with hardware.  I highly doubt that just b/c its on the 360 or even PS3, these developers will somehow get it right.

[D_Average]

From the article above:

"Sure, much of what has been seen is nothing more than tech demos, but the promise of more is there and, most importantly, the technology works."

Exactly.  "Promise".  Thats all there ever is.  Almost 4 years later, we're still waiting on 3rd parties to create immersive non gimmicky basketball, baseball, and football games for the Wii.  Somthing this is certainely possible with Wii hardware.  I highly doubt that just b/c its on the 360 or even PS3, these developers will somehow get it right.

[NWR_pap64]

From the article above:

"Sure, much of what has been seen is nothing more than tech demos, but the promise of more is there and, most importantly, the technology works."

Exactly.  "Promise".  Thats all there ever is.  Almost 4 years later, we're still waiting on 3rd parties to create immersive non gimmicky basketball, baseball, and football games for the Wii.  Somthing this is certainely possible with hardware.  I highly doubt that just b/c its on the 360 or even PS3, these developers will somehow get it right.

And this is why all this Natal praise bothers me.

Many developers have said that the Wii has failed to reach its full potential, that motion controls are a fad and that developing a game for the Wii can be limited. Yet Natal has an extremely absurd concept (no controller whatsoever) and it has won the praise and support of the same people who trashed the Wii for being a limited fad.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if MS money hatted the HELL out of developers and journalists. I hate to dive into a fanboy conspiracy theory, but when the Wii premiered there was a healthy amount of skepticism and optimism. Now Natal it seems to have gained universal love and support despite only having tech demos when it premiered. Hell, I don't even recall the PS3 wand getting the same kind of love Natal is getting.

[KDR_11k]

Natal is getting universal love and support from game dev reps and the media, the reaction from regular people seems to be extremely sceptical.

[BlackNMild2k1]

That's because Natal is HARDCORE like P90X.


The way I see it, the Wiimote w/ M+ is the most universally compatible design that could work in practically any gaming situation.

Sony wand is the best approach at what it's trying to do, 1:1 motion controls, but the design leaves alot to be desired. Glowing orbs on sticks could look alot better.

Natal is a like a parody of the whole idea, like a Motion Control Movie (Date Movie, Disaster Movie, etc etc.). It takes the most exaggerated movements from wiimote control and focuses on just that. I know that that is not all Natal is capable of, but from the ideas being thrown around, it seems that's all they have come up with.

Ideally a combination of the 3 would be great, but patents will make sure something like that doesn't happen anytime soon. If you could have the wiimote, pointer functions and all(M+ included), with the Natal camera(cpu & mic built in) mixed with Sony's visual controller detection for 3D 1:1 tracking we could actually take motion control where it should be going. Virtual Reality.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

The Wii Remote is the only solution of the three that can execute swordplay, fit in a guitar, fit in a shotgun, and play Nintendo Entertainment System games, for different TANGIBLE experiences.

That's plenty of reality fun that doesn't have to be totally virtual.

[BlackNMild2k1]

That's how I described the wiimote though,
"universally compatible design that could work in practically any gaming situation."

I can play tennis, break a sweat, benefit from the exercise, play against a friend, yet never leave the comfort of my home, and thats not totally virtual.

But ultimately what we are moving towards with motion controls is a Virtual Reality.
Where we can do things, without having to actually do them. (not looking towards a Total Recall or Matrix)

Get rid of the TV and invent a holodeck and then we're really talking(the virtual reality we should try to get to), but thats still a long way off.
 

[BlackNMild2k1]

To get back on point though, this whole Natal thing just proves that MS doesn't quite get it.

When Nintendo came up with the Wiimote, they first thought up games and interface ideas, then needed a way to do it. So they created the Wiimote.

MS saw technology and bought it, then they try to solve the million dollar question on how do they use it. What software can they adapt to the hardware. Which is evident by the complete lack of compelling software or ideas on adapting it to existing games. A completely opposite of Nintendo who has adapted the hardware to work with their software.

[EasyCure]

To get back on point though, this whole Natal thing just proves that MS doesn't quite get it.

When Nintendo came up with the Wiimote, they first thought up games and interface ideas, then needed a way to do it. So they created the Wiimote.

MS saw technology and bought it, then they try to solve the million dollar question on how do they use it. What software can they adapt to the hardware. Which is evident by the complete lack of compelling software or ideas on adapting it to existing games. A completely opposite of Nintendo who has adapted the hardware to work with their software.

So Microsoft is trying to stick a square peg in a round hole is what you're saying.

[BlackNMild2k1]

More like trying to stick a steel pole in an active light socket. The results are gonna be shocking.

You can only money hat so much support before developers just stop trying. There is so much untapped potential with the wiimote, which is still a traditional style controller, and 3 years later developers are just now starting to figuring it out. I don't have much hope for anything more than 15 minute gimmick games without much replay value.

That ball slapping game they were demoing with Natal, if you could control spin and angle on that and have to aim at target all over the screen, that might add some challenge and replay value, but from what they were demoing, it seemed like it was hard enough to be in the way of the ball so that it would bounce back. That seems like a 15 minute gimmick game.

Burnout with two hands in the air and one foot forward.... what is this? the hokey pokey? playing like that is gonna be too tiresome and uncomfortable for extended play.

What they need is a WiiSports. Something simplistic at first, but the more you play, the more depth you discover. Easy to pick up, hard to master. I know they haven't shown much software yet, but from what has been shown, and stories that have been told, it doesn't really seem like they have come up with that "casual friendly, hardcore approved" game yet. & at $200(rumored) it had better be some damn good game since the jump in price is gonna be $400 starting.

[EasyCure]

Microsoft; Like school in summer time... No Class (No Knowledge?)

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Will it even be bundled with a game?  A rubber ducky demo?  Fantavision?  Duck Hunt?

[Peachylala]

Will it come with the Fly Swatter mini-game from Mario Paint?

[KDR_11k]

I think we should look more at the EyeToy minigames.

[Peachylala]

EyeToy games suck ass, Fly Swatter is better then all of them.

[KDR_11k]

Yeah but Natal is more like the Eye Toy than the SNES mouse.

[Peachylala]

Exactly.

Better to look semi[/i] normal with a mouse then it is to swing around your arms like you're having a seizure.

[Smash_Brother]

What they need is a WiiSports. Something simplistic at first, but the more you play, the more depth you discover. Easy to pick up, hard to master. I know they haven't shown much software yet, but from what has been shown, and stories that have been told, it doesn't really seem like they have come up with that "casual friendly, hardcore approved" game yet. & at $200(rumored) it had better be some damn good game since the jump in price is gonna be $400 starting.

And they haven't answered the BIG question: who is going to buy this thing?

It's not hardcore gamers because they look upon it with disgust (and rightly so).

It's not going to be mothers for their kids: A $200 peripheral on top of a $300 system? I think not.

It's not going to be non-gamers: they're not going to go spend $500 on a concept that the Eyetoy largely already covered.

So who exactly is going to buy this thing?

[BlackNMild2k1]

"So who exactly is going to buy this thing?"

360 Fanbois that bashed the Wii for pointing & waggle and now want to hop on the the motion control bandwagon with out admitting that Nintendo was on the right track while praising MS for doing it "right".

[Shorty McNostril]

They will be the ones spouting enthusiasm for jumping around in the loungeroom playing HALO Natal.

[Stogi]

Black and white would work really well with this. No really.

Also, GTA: Where my money bitch? where you literally have to smack your hoes when they disrespectin' would be off the chain. No wonder TakeTwo is jumping on it.