Topic: The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword

[Lithium]

Gamespot's Skyward sword review
aka the gamespot zelda shitstorm, part the second.


I haven't played the game so obviously I'm not in any position to say whether or not they're trolling, but it seems like they're following in the footsteps of their twilight princess review.

[broodwars]

Considering that I think history proved Gamespot right with their 8.8 score for Twilight Princess, I think people should give them the benefit of the doubt with their Skyward Sword review until they've played it themselves.  Just glossing over the review (I prefer video reviews over pages of text), it looks like their complaints are the same I've seen in other less-positive reviews of Skyward Sword.  A 7.5 is still a good score unless you're Game Informer, where a 7 is apparently "average".

[Lithium]

yeah i actually agree with you broodwars on the TP comment but i cant help but feel like they're trying to get hits. granted if videogame review scores weren't so inflated then it wouldn't be a big deal. To be frank thats the bigger issue.


btw here's the video review

[broodwars]

yeah i actually agree with you broodwars on the TP comment but i cant help but feel like they're trying to get hits. granted if videogame review scores weren't so inflated then it would be a big deal. To be frank thats the bigger issue.


btw here's the video review

Yeah, I just finished watching it.  They must have just uploaded it.

The video review's actually pretty amusing.  No, it's not because of anything said or shown (which is as boring as usual with Gamespot reviews, where the review is read with all the excitement of Ben Stein in Ferris Bueller's Day Off), but rather what isn't.  Apparently, Nintendo must have really pissed the reviewer off, because there are large sections of the video review blurred out with text saying they did this to comply with Nintendo's embargo restrictions.  Apparently, an "uncensored version" (their words) will be available at 3:01 AM EST on Sunday.

But yeah, the complaints fall in line with some other reviews I've seen: motion controls that don't always work when you need them to; battles boiling down to waggle after the first strike; and a formula that can get kind of tedious with the fetch quests.  We'll see how much of an issue those are when we play the game ourselves, but it worries me that this isn't an isolated review as these complaints keep cropping up.

[Enner]

From listening to the Hotspot podcasts, Tom Mc Shea can be a bit of an odd ball. His criticisms on the Kinect exemplify how much he values control in video games. I don't know whether he couldn't get a good grasp on the controls or there was nothing to grasp. For sure I know that he thought they were poor. I'll see where I fall in when I get the game.

When I linked in to the video review from the Gamespot Twitter feed and saw that big 7.5, I knew I was in for an interesting week in the other forums I frequent.

[Luigi Dude]

This doesn't surprise me.  From all the reviews and even people playing the game in Europe early, Skyward Sword is basically looking to be this gens Majora's Mask.  Like Majora's Mask, there doesn't seem to be much of a middle ground between how people feel.  Either people love what the game does and feel it's one of the best Zelda's or they hate what the game does and feel it's one of the worst.

Just look at the average reviews for both Skyward Sword and Majora's Mask.

http://www.gamerankings.com/n64/197770-the-legend-of-zelda-majoras-mask/articles.html

http://www.gamerankings.com/wii/960633-the-legend-of-zelda-skyward-sword/articles.html


As you can see, not much middle ground between either game.  Either the game is a high 9 or 10, or it's a 9 or below.  Not much between the 91-96% range for either.  Should make for some explosive debates for the future since both sides are going to really love or really hate the game.

[Ceric]

Just looking at the link given this game is uniformly given a great to perfect score.  With 4 good-average scores in the bunch, the 3 data points in the 80's and one in the 70's.  I would honestly expect a polarizing game to exhibit a lull between the two points where the scores are collecting.

I would agree with you if the majority of the data points were distributed like

1 in the 70's
9 in the 80's
3 in the 90's
8 in the 100's

Even though an 80 is a good score in the examples you would notice a clear divide in the scoring which could indicate the game clicking with someone fully or not.  It may also be an indication of whether a full play through happened and the reviewers general like/dislike for the developer.

[Ian Sane]

A 7.5 for a Zelda game is like giving a normal game a 5.  Zelda cannot be okay or decent.  It's a series that aims to be the BEST and being merely great is considered disappointing for a Zelda game.  7.5 is also so incredibly off from a 10 that it's hard to tell exactly what to think.

Gamespot gave Mario Kart 64 a 6.4 (was that a joke, why not 6.5?) and Super Mario Sunshine an 8.  Both of those go way against the grain of the reviews at the time and both are pretty much dead on in retrospect.  Mario Kart 64 is "Cheating Rubber Band AI: The Game" and Super Mario Sunshine is clearly the weakest of the 3D Marios.  And as broodwars mentioned their Twilight Princess review score was pretty dead on (they even gave the Cube version a slightly higher score; which is again dead-on as that's the waggle-free "true" version of the game).

But the Wii itself is polarizing to being with.  I can't stand motion control.  For me Skyward Sword doesn't have to just be the best motion controlled game ever it has to sell me on the concept itself, a concept I already have a huge bias against.  Maybe Gamespot's review is from someone who hates motion control to begin with.

But Gamespot is the site that fired someone for giving Kane & Lynch a weak score because their advertisers complained.  I stopped going there after that and it hurts the credibility of the whole site.

[Ceric]

I wouldn't say the Mario Sunshine is the weakest of the 3D Mario games personally.  Its 1 of the 3 that I've "Beaten" and wanted to finish. (SMG, Super Mario Sunshine, Super Mario Land 3D.)  Its also the one where I've beaten the most content Percentage wise.

I didn't finish nor want to finish Mario 64/DS or SMG2.

The great thing about a Zelda game though is that the people who will ever buy this game series on a whole will buy it regardless of the reviews so we get to really see how people compare it to the Review scores.

[Luigi Dude]

A 7.5 for a Zelda game is like giving a normal game a 5.  Zelda cannot be okay or decent.  It's a series that aims to be the BEST and being merely great is considered disappointing for a Zelda game.  7.5 is also so incredibly off from a 10 that it's hard to tell exactly what to think.

Gamespot gave Mario Kart 64 a 6.4 (was that a joke, why not 6.5?) and Super Mario Sunshine an 8.  Both of those go way against the grain of the reviews at the time and both are pretty much dead on in retrospect.  Mario Kart 64 is "Cheating Rubber Band AI: The Game" and Super Mario Sunshine is clearly the weakest of the 3D Marios.  And as broodwars mentioned their Twilight Princess review score was pretty dead on (they even gave the Cube version a slightly higher score; which is again dead-on as that's the waggle-free "true" version of the game).

Ian, Gamespot also gave Majora's Mask an 8.3 which is lower than what Wind Waker and Twilight Princess got from the site.  Last time I checked you've said Majora's Mask is better then both Wind Waker and Twilight Princess.  Yet Gamespot gave it a score lower than both games.  So using Gamespots reviews to compare Zelda games might not be the best thing for yourself to use.
 
Like I said before, Skyward Sword seems to be like Majora's Mask where the people who don't like what the game does, really don't like it, while those who love it really love it.  This is why a place like Gamespot where the reviewer didn't like what the game did gave it a 7.5 while other places like IGN, Edge, Eurogamer and our very own NintendoWorldReport like what the game did and gave it a 10.
 
Basically, Skyward Sword is the type of game everyone is going to have to play for themselves in the end because it's looking to be one of those games where it either clicks for people or it doesn't.

[Stogi]

MARIOKART 64 THE WEAKEST OF ALL MARIOKARTS?!

But it's the game that created 'Drunk Driving'. It's the greatest MarioKart ever!

[Ian Sane]

A 7.5 for a Zelda game is like giving a normal game a 5.  Zelda cannot be okay or decent.  It's a series that aims to be the BEST and being merely great is considered disappointing for a Zelda game.  7.5 is also so incredibly off from a 10 that it's hard to tell exactly what to think.

Gamespot gave Mario Kart 64 a 6.4 (was that a joke, why not 6.5?) and Super Mario Sunshine an 8.  Both of those go way against the grain of the reviews at the time and both are pretty much dead on in retrospect.  Mario Kart 64 is "Cheating Rubber Band AI: The Game" and Super Mario Sunshine is clearly the weakest of the 3D Marios.  And as broodwars mentioned their Twilight Princess review score was pretty dead on (they even gave the Cube version a slightly higher score; which is again dead-on as that's the waggle-free "true" version of the game).

Ian, Gamespot also gave Majora's Mask an 8.3 which is lower than what Wind Waker and Twilight Princess got from the site.  Last time I checked you've said Majora's Mask is better then both Wind Waker and Twilight Princess.  Yet Gamespot gave it a score lower than both games.  So using Gamespots reviews to compare Zelda games might not be the best thing for yourself to use.
 
Like I said before, Skyward Sword seems to be like Majora's Mask where the people who don't like what the game does, really don't like it, while those who love it really love it.  This is why a place like Gamespot where the reviewer didn't like what the game did gave it a 7.5 while other places like IGN, Edge, Eurogamer and our very own NintendoWorldReport like what the game did and gave it a 10.
 
Basically, Skyward Sword is the type of game everyone is going to have to play for themselves in the end because it's looking to be one of those games where it either clicks for people or it doesn't.

I didn't think to check their Majora's Mask score.  MM is like bleu cheese.  It's not for everyone, though I have always seen it that way.  I've never expected it to be universally loved.

Now is any Wii owner NOT going to try this game out?  It's Zelda, it's a given.  We'll all find out how we feel about it.

[Killer_Man_Jaro]

Again, it's hard to know until it's in my hands, but it wouldn't at all surprise me if certain players who are really not used to involved motion controls like these have difficulties which are not the fault of the game. Some people will have gotten into the habit of flailing thoughtlessly through so many other games, and that could easily influence how they find this game to be. That's the impression I got out of E3 this year, at least.

To give a completely opposite view to Gamespot, I was listening to the Giant Bombcast today, and Patrick Klepek could not have sung the praises for the combat in Skyward Sword more highly. As in, he's speaking along the lines of this being a landmark for all future motion control, and how it's more engaging and satisfying than just about any other game's combat system.

[Stogi]

Now is any Wii owner NOT going to try this game out?  It's Zelda, it's a given.  We'll all find out how we feel about it.

Ahem...

You can be lazy if you want. I've been looking forward to this.

I'd play it standing up the entire time if I have to. I'd play it on a broken 13" TV with magnets fucking up the picture. Hell, I'd even play it decked out in cosplay riding a wooden horse if I had to.

[broodwars]

Again, it's hard to know until it's in my hands, but it wouldn't at all surprise me if certain players who are really not used to involved motion controls like these have difficulties which are not the fault of the game.

I disagree on this point.  A game's number one priority, above all else, should be to make sure the player knows how to play the game, and that when they make a mistake they know why they failed.  If there's an element of finesse to the controls in Skyward Sword and the game does not make that clear, that's a fault of the game not the player.  That's especially true with Nintendo titles, given their love of dumping a seemingly-endless barrage of tutorials on the player.

What I'm seeing with some of the less positive reviews is complaints that the Wii Motion + is just not physically interpreting some movements right, especially when it comes to discerning between a bomb roll and a bomb toss since both use similar movements.  It also bothers me that Nintendo only seems to be taking into account the precision of your first swing in swordplay, using that as a stun move to then encourage the player to simply waggle their way to victory.  I often made fun of my "flying *****-slap" sword technique in Wii Sports Resort, which was strangely effective despite looking really stupid (with my hand waving the Wii Remote like a feather duster).  It disappoints me that it looks like it'll be effective once more in Zelda after a single weakness-exposing swing.

[MegaByte]

I'm actually wondering if perhaps there's defective hardware out there rather than a major problem with the software. The Zelda demo I played at E3 was definitely fubared, but I played it on a different console than the rest of the staff.

On the other hand, early on, Neal thought he was going to give the game a lower score due to those controls, but they grew on him to the point that he loves them. For whatever reason, that transition didn't happen with some people. I asked him whether the control problem was because they were too sensitive or not sensitive enough, and he said it was too sensitive -- people who are used to waggle instead of precision controls will have to adjust. I guess the rest of us will know soon enough, but if this is truly the case, some people just aren't coordinated enough and there's not much Nintendo can do aside from having multiple control options.

[Ian Sane]

The problem I have always had with motion controls is that the priority thus far has never been to have a game with precise controls.  The goal is more to make controlling the game itself part of the fun.  That sort of thing is thrilling to some and annoying to others.  Nintendo used to be Mr. Precision when it came to controls.  Nintendo games did not have floaty or wonky controls.  You pushed left, the character went left.  You pushed A, the character jumped.  When they had digital controls it was tight.  Later they introduced analog controls and from the very first game, precision was there.  In Super Mario 64 the speed Mario moved at was reflected in how far you pushed the analog stick and it felt right.  Tight, accurate and precise controls are part of making a quality game and Nintendo was on top of that.  It is no different than how Nintendo games are not buggy and Nintendo hardware is strong and reliable.

I remember the first time I played Wii Sports golf.  At one point in the process of getting the remote into the "down position" my Mii raised the club and when I raised the club he did the downstroke.  It was literally up being down and down being up.  I couldn't help but think "what the **** is this bullshit?"  That experience was a good impression of the Wii as a whole - fighting the controller.  Now the idea is that waggling the controller is "fun".  But I know the trick.  I know it's just mapping a button press to a shake and the how hard or soft I do the shake is completely irrelevant.  I know the trick, it doesn't work on me, so I just want the button press so I can play the game without Mario spin-jumping when I don't want him to.

If there are issues with discerning between a bomb roll and a bomb toss, well, that's the whole damn point!  That's why motion control sucks!  That's why I hate it!  For Skyward Sword to truly impress me I have to think "man, I would not want to play this game with regular controls in a million years."  The second my waggle is misinterpreted I'm thinking "****, I wish this was a button press".  Never ever even ONCE in the game should it make me think that.  When playing OoT, when I pressed B, Link swung his sword.  He didn't roll into lava or anything like that.  I don't want to have to fight the controls.  I have no patience for that ****.  And I shouldn't have to.  Responsive controls are the responsibility of the developer and if motion control prohibits this it should not be used.

After about an hour of play I should feel like I am effortlessly controlling the game without any fear of the wrong action occuring.

[Stogi]

Ian, I'd like to hear your impressions on Metriod Prime 3 and or the Trilogy (where the new controls were added).

[NWR_insanolord]

The problem I have always had with motion controls is that the priority thus far has never been to have a game with precise controls.

Neal argued that the reason people were having control issues may be that the controls are too accurate and people are used to simple waggle and aren't using enough precision because of that.

Also, expecting the controls work perfectly every time is a pretty high standard since I know a lot of games that just use buttons that can't live up to that. And how will you be able to discern between it not working because the controls didn't work right and it not working because your movement wasn't precise enough?

[Ian Sane]

Ian, I'd like to hear your impressions on Metriod Prime 3 and or the Trilogy (where the new controls were added).

I didn't like MP3 as much as the previous games because it plays more like a typical FPS and I liked how the first two games controlled.  You also are limited on how you can position the controller because of how it points.  You have to have it pointing straight ahead.  Using the nunchuk for that grapple beam is torture due to how finicky that thing is.  I had lots of forward-back reversed controls with that one.  I have not played the Trilogy as I bought MP3 prior to the Trilogy release and already have the Cube versions of the original games and don't see any need to buy them again.

Also, expecting the controls work perfectly every time is a pretty high standard since I know a lot of games that just use buttons that can't live up to that. And how will you be able to discern between it not working because the controls didn't work right and it not working because your movement wasn't precise enough?

Fine, is 99% good enough?  Most of the best Nintendo games pre-Wii have controls that are as close to perfect as any game can get.  This should be comparable to the GC version of Twilight Princess.  Control hiccups in that game are pretty damn rare (can't think of any time I encountered one).  As for the precision of my movement it has to be like "oops, I went horizontal when I meant to go vertical".  That's like pushing the wrong button.  It's a human error.  But if I do a vertical motion and it interprets it as horizontal, that's crap.  I just don't want to ever fight the controls.  In every damn Wii game without CC support I have to fight the controls to keep this from happening when I'm just trying to hold the controller still and have that happen when I want it to instead of inaction.

[Oblivion]

AHHH I CAN'T DO MOTION CONTROL EVEN THOUGH CHILDREN A QUARTER OF MY AGE CAN SO I'LL BITCH ABOUT IT AHHH


Honestly, no (physical) problems with motions controls here. Don't know what your issue is.

[broodwars]

Something that always used to bug me in the Wii version of Twilight Princess was that when you stunned an enemy in the GameCube version, you could easily pull off 4-5 sword swings before the enemy could get back up again by just rapidly taping the attack button.  In the Wii version, you could do I believe a maximum of three swings (the last of which would take extra long to perform) because the Wii took extra time to interpret your waggle shakes.  It always used to bug me how much longer boss fights would be artificially extended because of that limitation in the Wii version.  I hope they've tweaked the timing in Skyward Sword so you don't run into that "wall" where it feels like you should be more effective in battle than the controls allow you to be.

[Ian Sane]

Something that always used to bug me in the Wii version of Twilight Princess was that when you stunned an enemy in the GameCube version, you could easily pull off 4-5 sword swings before the enemy could get back up again by just rapidly taping the attack button.  In the Wii version, you could do I believe a maximum of three swings (the last of which would take extra long to perform) because the Wii took extra time to interpret your waggle shakes.  It always used to bug me how much longer boss fights would be artificially extended because of that limitation in the Wii version.  I hope they've tweaked the timing in Skyward Sword so you don't run into that "wall" where it feels like you should be more effective in battle than the controls allow you to be.

Having never played the Wii version I had no idea that was the case.  But in that example you know you COULD get more hits in if you were playing the Cube version.  But with Skyward Sword there is no other version of the game to compare it to.  They also aren't shoe-horning Wii controls in a Gamecube game.  The boss fight is longer because the balance was made for the Cube version and then moved over.  But with Skyward Sword the boss is designed solely for Skyward Sword and if you can only get three hits in, they should have designed the boss under the assumption you can only get three hits in.  It makes all the difference when a game is designed for the ground up for the hardware.

[Mop it up]

You can't really compare GameSpot's reviews of Zelda games because they're all done by different people. GameSpot is not one person, so just because one Zelda game got a higher score than another doesn't mean it's better, or even that the person who reviewed Skyward Sword thinks it's worse than previous games. There's also the fact that scores given are relative only to the system on which the game appears and not every other system, plus standards could have easily changed over the decade since Majora's Mask was released (GameSpot works in .5 increments now so a game can't even get an 8.3 anymore), which adds up to a bunch of values that aren't comparable.

Scores are arbitrary. The only thing that should matter is the review text, which I don't want to read yet so I can't say anything of the review. However, from what I gather the controls are the only real negative of the game, and if that was really the reviewer's only issue? That game still sounds a lot better than previous 3D Zelda games that aren't Ocarina, which have a whole host of problems.

[BranDonk Kong]

I haven't played Skyward Sword yet - but it seems like GameSpot's score is horse ****. The game has a 95 on Metacritic after 37 reviews, with well over half of them being perfect 10s. GameSpot is the only one to give it less than an 8. Clearly they're looking for hits.

On a side note, there's a hilarious article on GameStop pointing out that the people who made the new Jurassic Park game have been putting out bogus reviews to boost the score - when GameStop themselves fired one of their own employees a few years ago because he didn't rate Kand and Lynch high enough like Eidos was paying off GameSpot to do.