Author Topic: ♥ Loyalty ♥  (Read 29830 times)

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Offline smallsharkbigbite

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Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
« Reply #75 on: August 04, 2009, 12:00:33 PM »
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The xbox360 is $200 now which is cheaper than a Wii.  The PS3 can be had for $250 if you sign up for a credit card from Sonystyle.com.  That's not factoring the fact that a Wii controller costs $60 versus the $40 from the competitors and you'll need an SD card for the Wii if you plan to utilize the download service at all.
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I'm not going to argue prices with you, mainly because the $200 Xbox 360 is that totally stripped down version, and you keep talking about accessories like the 360 and PS3 don't have them.
Last year, the pro 360 was $250 with 2 games during the holidays.  Your going to see the same thing this holiday.  And the accessories do cost more with the Wii.  And there is no player choice titles for the Wii.  Yeah, some third parties drop their cost, but on the 360/PS3 you can get almost every title for a significant discount within a year of release.  You don't want to argue this because it's very easy to see that the Wii is at least in the same price range and most likely more $ for most people.  I also like it that since the arcade xbox only comes with 512 mb of memory it's stripped down.  What other system comes with that much memory?
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If the Wii tried with a price drop of only $50 and maybe buying a big exclusive game could they push to the 65-70% range?  We'll never know because Nintendo is glued to short term profits that they don't realize that they risk turning off consumers in the future.

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Could you explain this in detail?  I don't see how lots of people buying the Wii at the current price means they should drop it and how it would risk turning off anybody.  And LOL short term profits.  This isn't a charity, guy.
Yes, laugh at me if you will.  The Wii sold over 5 million in the first quarter of 08.  They sold just 2.23 million in the first quarter of 09.  They are getting close to saturation at this price point.  While Wii came out of the blocks faster than the PS2, the PS2 never saw a decrease like that.  So if Nintendo is happy because they are making money fine.  But they could of sold 5 million this first quarter.  They'd need to work with price to do it.  And there is the whole issue of economies of scale.  Nintendo has enough manufacturing capability to supply 5 million Wii's but they are only selling 2 million.  This means plant closures and increased parts cost for them.

I never said it was a charity, I'm happy they print money.  I'll have endless Mario sequels now.  But with increased HD adoption, and cheaper HD consoles consumers could start turning to the PS3 and 360.  If that happens they'll be hard to get back.  I know this company that paid millions of dollars to a supplier to keep them happy.  Without going into too much detail they had a contract tied to an indice that was grossly increasing and paid in arrears.  So they were paying well below market value for the product and charging their customers based on the increasing indices.  The company could have stuck it to them and said you signed the contract it's our money now.  But they didn't want to go with another supplier so they evened up with them.  Nintendo is walking that fine line by keeping prices high and eventually having consumers turn on them.  It's alot harder to get a customer back then it is to keep them. 

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It's hard to say with certainty, but next generation when the 360/PS3 siblings have great graphics, new control schemes, and still have the third party dominance (since Wii isn't building bridges with developers) we'll see how well Nintendo does when people aren't caught off guard by innovative controls.

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Didn't Sony already try a motion control thing?  Didn't it suck so bad people forgot it existed which helped them pitch their Wii knockoff this year?  Do you really think all those current 360 owners even like the prospect of Natal?  Do you think all those third parties who spent this whole generation knocking motion controls are going to be able to just magically adapt when Sony and MS force them to use motion controls?  This isn't so simple as it looks, dude.  Better graphics doesn't = TEH WIN, because that would mean the PS3 and 360 would be tops and Wii would be in the pit.  And to be honest, Nintendo can get all the graphical specs the 360 has and then some for bargain basement prices right now.  If anything it's MS and Sony who are painted into a corner because they really can't advance graphics further than TVs can display or even customers can appreciably discern.
Didn't Nintendo try the motion thing before and it stunk (Power Glove)?  Technology changes.  You see what Sony and MS want you to see right now.  I'm sure there is alot going on behind closed doors and alot of $ being spent on those techs.  Just like Nintendo and IBM's new agreement which is sure to be the HD console from Nintendo.  We'll see what everyone has in store for the next generation soon enough.  I'm just saying that Nintendo caught Sony and Microsoft with their pants down on the motion controlled thing.  They are not going to underestimate Nintendo next time or the market of casual gamers. 

Also just to clarify, I don't think this is all a price issue.  I think they should drop their price on the Wii $50 for the holiday season.  This would offset the likely price decreases for PS3/Xbox360 and keep Wii in the forefront.  The thing that makes me more upset is the fact that Nintendo is adamant against deals.  Why is there not a player's choice?  Every Nintendo console has had one.  And why aren't they willing to work more with developers.  Maybe GTA 4 could have been on the Wii as well if Nintendo would of gone to TT and said, "Hey we know you've never had a GTA on a Nintendo console before.  If you do GTA 4 we will waive the licensing costs (approximately $12 a copy)."  That wouldn't have cost them anything and would have put an end to this hardcore games don't sell on the Wii crap.  But no special deals for anyone.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 01:06:05 PM by smallsharkbigbite »

Offline Nick DiMola

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Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
« Reply #76 on: August 04, 2009, 01:04:56 PM »
Why would Nintendo do special deals like that? Who cares if GTA IV comes to the Wii. Nintendo sure doesn't if it'll cost them money.

If Wii sales were really sagging this would be a different story, but even in their decline Wiis are still selling like hotcakes.
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Offline smallsharkbigbite

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Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
« Reply #77 on: August 04, 2009, 03:19:14 PM »
Why would Nintendo do special deals like that? Who cares if GTA IV comes to the Wii. Nintendo sure doesn't if it'll cost them money.

If Wii sales were really sagging this would be a different story, but even in their decline Wiis are still selling like hotcakes.

Therein lies the problem.  It wouldn't cost Nintendo money because to give them a break on licensing fees. The alternative is there is no GTA IV on the Wii.  10 million in sales says alot of people do care if GTA IV is on the Wii. 

Nintendo doesn't have to do anything.  It's just me as a consumer would like to see some non-Nintendo AAA games.  But I guess I can because I own a PS3.  They won't be coming to the Wii.  Not because the Wii isn't a capable console, but because that's the Nintendo runs business.  The Wii is good for Nintendo first party games and the few motion control games that are good.  My problem is that it could be good for alot more.  Those 10 millino GTA owners may own a Wii but the Wii will never be enough for them.  I don't even like GTA, but I can't stand missing all the great third party games that the Wii will never have.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 03:37:14 PM by smallsharkbigbite »

Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
« Reply #78 on: August 04, 2009, 03:34:30 PM »
If Take Two doesn't have the heart to "do Wii," to take advantage of "Wii," who cares.  You're right, Nintendo doesn't have to do anything.  It's on Take Two.  We'll leave Take Two to take the initiative on their own, allow them the opportunity to make a Wii GTA that doesn't threaten the company's own financials.  It'll be a good challenge for them.
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Offline smallsharkbigbite

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Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
« Reply #79 on: August 04, 2009, 03:50:09 PM »
Most businesses collaborate to get a better product and try to maximize the value to the customer.  I feel like Nintendo is doing neither.  That was just an example with GTA.  But there's a way their to pad both TT's and Nintendo's wallet.  But Nintendo would never approach them with a deal.  Everything has to be Nintendo's way when you work with them.  Maybe that makes them alot of dough, but it's not very consumer friendly and my guess is Nintendo doesn't pull the repeat in the console wars.  Because if Nintendo doesn't come out with the WOW factor in the hardware, they won't have the best game selection to help them out.  Everyone should be priced closer together next time as well. 

Offline Stogi

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Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
« Reply #80 on: August 04, 2009, 04:00:04 PM »
No offense, but what a stupid argument.

Your basically saying that Nintendo has done nothing to bring in third party games when they've done the most important thing of all: DOMINATE THE MARKET.

It's Third Parties that are missing out on a financial opportunity. Why should Nintendo whore themselves out when they can sit back on a throne and laugh?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 04:09:37 PM by Kashogi Y. Stogi »
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
« Reply #81 on: August 04, 2009, 04:16:31 PM »
"Maybe that makes them alot of dough, but it's not very consumer friendly"

I thought we were talking about Nintendo.  Being consumer friendly made them a lot of dough (step back and rethink whom "consumers" encompasses).

"Because if Nintendo doesn't come out with the WOW factor in the hardware, they won't have the best game selection to help them out."

Help them do what?  Do more than dominate the industry?  This handheld white plastic hardware thing people got to swing around had plenty of WOW factor for *customers.*

"Everyone should be priced closer together next time as well."

$300-close so that the system makers do what Nintendo successfully already demonstrated?  Or $600-close to threaten the prosperity of the industry?  Pick one that's going to lose the WOW-hardware factor.  The other one will lose its WOW factor for exceeding the value of my monthly rent.
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Offline smallsharkbigbite

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Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
« Reply #82 on: August 04, 2009, 04:51:32 PM »
No offense, but what a stupid argument.

Your basically saying that Nintendo has done nothing to bring in third party games when they've done the most important thing of all: DOMINATE THE MARKET.

It's Third Parties that are missing out on a financial opportunity. Why should Nintendo whore themselves out when they can sit back on a throne and laugh?

No offense, but where are the third party games if Nintendo has fulfilled their side of the bargain?  The loser isn't Nintendo when a third party game doesn't come to their system.  It's you the consumer.   
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 04:53:50 PM by smallsharkbigbite »

Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
« Reply #83 on: August 04, 2009, 04:53:55 PM »
No offense, but what a stupid argument.

Your basically saying that Nintendo has done nothing to bring in third party games when they've done the most important thing of all: DOMINATE THE MARKET.

It's Third Parties that are missing out on a financial opportunity. Why should Nintendo whore themselves out when they can sit back on a throne and laugh?

No offense, but where are the third party games if Nintendo has fulfilled their side of the bargain? 

Losing money on HD consoles.
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Offline Stogi

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Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
« Reply #84 on: August 04, 2009, 05:02:17 PM »
No offense, but what a stupid argument.

Your basically saying that Nintendo has done nothing to bring in third party games when they've done the most important thing of all: DOMINATE THE MARKET.

It's Third Parties that are missing out on a financial opportunity. Why should Nintendo whore themselves out when they can sit back on a throne and laugh?

No offense, but where are the third party games if Nintendo has fulfilled their side of the bargain?  The loser isn't Nintendo when a third party game doesn't come to their system.  It's you the consumer.  

No, the loser is you specifically. I have plenty of games with my only deterrent from buying more games is having them get less than the attention they deserve due to my backlog.
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Offline smallsharkbigbite

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Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
« Reply #85 on: August 04, 2009, 05:02:53 PM »
"Maybe that makes them alot of dough, but it's not very consumer friendly"

I thought we were talking about Nintendo.  Being consumer friendly made them a lot of dough (step back and rethink whom "consumers" encompasses).

"Because if Nintendo doesn't come out with the WOW factor in the hardware, they won't have the best game selection to help them out."

Help them do what?  Do more than dominate the industry?  This handheld white plastic hardware thing people got to swing around had plenty of WOW factor for *customers.*

"Everyone should be priced closer together next time as well."

$300-close so that the system makers do what Nintendo successfully already demonstrated?  Or $600-close to threaten the prosperity of the industry?  Pick one that's going to lose the WOW-hardware factor.  The other one will lose its WOW factor for exceeding the value of my monthly rent.

They were consumer friendly in the fact that Wii Sports and WiiFit have tapped into a new market.  Sony and Microsoft are certainly not going to let them run free next gen since they've seen all the money that is in play. 

I'm just saying the difference between failure (gamecube) and success (Wii) are not that big.  What were the big games on the gamecube?  Mario, Zelda, Metroid.  What are the big games on the Wii?  Mario, Zelda, Metroid.  The control thing was genius but I look at the failure of Sony, Microsoft as an equal reason the Wii is leading.  They missed a competitive pricepoint and they suffered because of it.  Most of their big games were pushed way back and they completely ignored the casual market. 

With the Wii, Nintendo is going back to SNES to Genesis domination, not PS1 or PS2 domination.  They are hardly gauranteed to dominate another round of consoles.  In fact the 360 routinely outsells the Wii in software questioning domination to begin with.

Offline smallsharkbigbite

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Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
« Reply #86 on: August 04, 2009, 05:04:46 PM »
No offense, but what a stupid argument.

Your basically saying that Nintendo has done nothing to bring in third party games when they've done the most important thing of all: DOMINATE THE MARKET.

It's Third Parties that are missing out on a financial opportunity. Why should Nintendo whore themselves out when they can sit back on a throne and laugh?

No offense, but where are the third party games if Nintendo has fulfilled their side of the bargain? 

Losing money on HD consoles.

Or they could be Sega and EA losing money on the Wii.

Offline smallsharkbigbite

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Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
« Reply #87 on: August 04, 2009, 05:06:13 PM »
No offense, but what a stupid argument.

Your basically saying that Nintendo has done nothing to bring in third party games when they've done the most important thing of all: DOMINATE THE MARKET.

It's Third Parties that are missing out on a financial opportunity. Why should Nintendo whore themselves out when they can sit back on a throne and laugh?

No offense, but where are the third party games if Nintendo has fulfilled their side of the bargain?  The loser isn't Nintendo when a third party game doesn't come to their system.  It's you the consumer.   

No, the loser is you specifically. I have plenty of games with my only deterrent from buying more games is having them get less than the attention they deserve due to my backlog.

No need to be rude.  I'm not the loser because I am a multi console owner and your right, most people don't have enough time to play the games that they do have.  But you can't tell me you like not even having the choice of trying some of the so called epic games.

Offline Stogi

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Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
« Reply #88 on: August 04, 2009, 05:08:26 PM »
I am mad as **** at third parties and the general Nintendo bias. That's entirely different though.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
« Reply #89 on: August 04, 2009, 05:14:21 PM »
No offense, but what a stupid argument.

Your basically saying that Nintendo has done nothing to bring in third party games when they've done the most important thing of all: DOMINATE THE MARKET.

It's Third Parties that are missing out on a financial opportunity. Why should Nintendo whore themselves out when they can sit back on a throne and laugh?

No offense, but where are the third party games if Nintendo has fulfilled their side of the bargain? 

Losing money on HD consoles.

Or they could be Sega and EA losing money on the Wii.

Yeah that Tiger Woods 10 bombed big time. EA has done perfectly fine on Wii except for a couple of games. They don't need to sell 1 million units or so like HD consoles for a game to be profitable.

Sega has really had 1 failure on Wii, that was Madworld, HOTD:O was profitable and it appears Conduit is on the way to being profitable as well. Not to mention Sonic and the Secret Rings did very well.

Have Sega and EA been hugely successful on Wii? Nah but I believe they've been profitable. At least on Wii smaller developers can take a risk without worrying about going bankrupt if it bombs.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 05:33:00 PM by GoldenPhoenix »
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Offline smallsharkbigbite

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Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
« Reply #90 on: August 04, 2009, 05:19:38 PM »
I am mad as **** at third parties and the general Nintendo bias. That's entirely different though.

See I don't think it is though.  Nintendo has loads of money.  Why can't they collaborate with third parties to bring good games to it?  It's a win/win.  They break the argument that certain games aren't for their system, they are considered an elite console, and the end consumer is happier.  That also = more $ for Nintendo.  Your right, in the fact that for most people one console and whatever games they get are enough.  Well, I'm a Nintendo fanboy.  Nintendo systems all the way.  Then in Gamecube era I tried an xbox and I wasn't a fan so I sold the xbox.  Then with the Wii I tried the PS3 and I really liked it alot.  I have spent more $ on the PS3 than the Wii.  So yes, I know everyone is not me, but Nintendo could have kept me exclusive.  I wasn't naturally promiscuous.

Offline Plugabugz

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Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
« Reply #91 on: August 04, 2009, 05:30:38 PM »
This gen, even more than ever, its about finding the magic formula that makes you moneyhats. Trying to do that on Wii is like trying to tightrope across two passenger jets at 40,000 feet. Not the easiest thing to do in between 500mph airspeeds, air turbulence and suffocation to deal with.

Majesco worked it out. Sega is trying the same thing albeit differently.... so it stands to reason all they have to do is make/publish more of them to turn a profit? Lots of little profit = big profit?

Offline smallsharkbigbite

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Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
« Reply #92 on: August 04, 2009, 05:43:16 PM »
No offense, but what a stupid argument.

Your basically saying that Nintendo has done nothing to bring in third party games when they've done the most important thing of all: DOMINATE THE MARKET.

It's Third Parties that are missing out on a financial opportunity. Why should Nintendo whore themselves out when they can sit back on a throne and laugh?

No offense, but where are the third party games if Nintendo has fulfilled their side of the bargain? 

Losing money on HD consoles.

Or they could be Sega and EA losing money on the Wii.

Yeah that Tiger Woods 10 bombed big time. EA has done perfectly fine on Wii except for a couple of games. They don't need to sell 1 million units or so like HD consoles for a game to be profitable.

Sega has really had 1 failure on Wii, that was Madworld, HOTD:O was profitable and it appears Conduit is on the way to being profitable as well. Not to mention Sonic and the Secret Rings did very well.

EA had it's best Wii quarter ever with EA active, Tiger Woods, Boom Blox, etc. and it doubled it's Q1 loss from the Prior year.  That's also with Sims 3 selling 3.7 M copies. http://microsoft-news.tmcnet.com/news/2009/08/04/4308027.htm

Sega the same thing http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/newsArt.cfm?artid=19145.  Sega is one of the few publishers to give the Wii their best software.

This leads me to two believes.  A. That most software companies are too highly leveraged and will lose money no matter what. 

But B.  The best route of some software is to not put it on the Wii. 

It's easy to say the Wii is much cheaper to develop for so they have to sell less, but the reality is that PS3 + xbox360 user base >Wii.  By bundling those two together you don't have 2x the costs of the Wii because it's easy to port between them.  You don't get scaleable costs to port to Wii because of how different it is.  PS3 + Xbox360 have a track record of selling games such as those.  I.E. you build it they will come.  If someone wants to try out an RE5 type game they probably already have a PS3 or 360 because the Wii (unless you count the remake of RE4) doesn't have a game that's similiar.  So I would be willing to believe that some of companies have a Wii aversion, but at some point you'd think the Wii would get AAA games and that hasn't happened.  I think it's Nintendo's time to man up and get us some of those games or your just going to see this perpetuate on future Nintendo systems. 

Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
« Reply #93 on: August 04, 2009, 08:25:14 PM »
Nintendo is pretty much always going to go for the option that makes them the most money and I don't think there's a way to get third parties on board that fits that description which means it's not going to happen.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
« Reply #94 on: August 04, 2009, 10:48:23 PM »
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This leads me to two believes.  A. That most software companies are too highly leveraged and will lose money no matter what.

But B.  The best route of some software is to not put it on the Wii. 

And how exactly do you know what the cause is of their losses? That is right you don't, we are also in a tough economic period and EA releases games for systems other then Wii as well. You are showing bias in your statement right there when you indicate the reason EA and Sega are doing poorly is because of Wii when you have nothing to back it up. All we know is that EA is happy with Wii and is constantly expanding their support for the system. It may not be so called core titles but it indicates they are doing well on Wii. The same could be said with Sega (heck Wii owners are one of the few owners out there that buy crap like Sonic and the Black Knight).

No AAA games? What about Monster Hunter 3? Boom Blox? Tiger Woods 10? Zack and Wiki? That is only a few of them, or are we going to get into the asinine definition wars of what AAA is?

The fact of the matter is that there have been several games on the HD consoles that have virtually bankrupt companies while on the Wii there hasn't which leads to some uniquely designed games that you just would not see on PS3 or Xbox 360 (like Let's Tap from Sega).
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 10:53:35 PM by GoldenPhoenix »
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Offline SixthAngel

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Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
« Reply #95 on: August 05, 2009, 04:20:11 AM »
What is with all the talk about giving away the farm to third parties.  Nintendo has a cheap to develop for system with a huge install base and a fair licensing fee.  Nintendo has helped third parties who have asked them for it but they don't knock on their doors and ask if they can polish their shoes (games).  They are THIRD parties.  They are seperate companies and big boys are supposed to be able to take care of themselves.

Deal with third parties on their terms?  It is Nintendo's platform.  They control it, it is by definition Nintendo's terms.

The way third parties are treated these days I hardly think of them as third parties.  It also makes me think the indusrty is more unhealthy than people think.

-Epic essentially controlled the Xbox development because they made Microsoft change the specs.  Thats right, a single different company with different motives and business plan changed the design of the console.

-Microsoft has essentially bankrolled numerous "third party" games.

-Moneyhats.  When not fully bankrolled these games seem to get money and bonuses on licensing or advertising.  This gives the big developers and big name games an even greater advantage.  Way to help the little guys big guys.

-Nintendo giving first party franchises to third party developers so they do a game on a Nintendo platform.

I think all of these are terrible long term strategies because it gives all the power to other companies.  The console maker is investing in a product whose future they don't control.  If it is successful it will guarrentee an even bigger payoff to get the sequel(or in Nintendo's case gives someone else the ability to control your ip).  Nintendo wants them to make games for Wii because it makes them money, not because Nintendo will give them money and they show this at the start.

Nintendo wants third parties to develop for their platform, they have made it very easy and cheap for them.  That is all they should have to do (they are seperate companies) and all I think they should do.

« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 04:31:56 AM by SixthAngel »

Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
« Reply #96 on: August 05, 2009, 04:42:05 AM »
Sixth is right, Nintendo has helped 3rd parties who've asked for their help such as Capcom, EA (heck they released the motion plus way before Wii Sports Resort), and Ubisoft.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
« Reply #97 on: August 05, 2009, 12:45:32 PM »
What are the big games on the Wii?  Mario, Zelda, Metroid.

Wrong. The big games on the Wii are Wii Sports, Wii Play, Wii Fit, Mario Kart (NOT regular Mario).

Offline Deguello

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Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
« Reply #98 on: August 05, 2009, 03:26:54 PM »
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EA had it's best Wii quarter ever with EA active, Tiger Woods, Boom Blox, etc. and it doubled it's Q1 loss from the Prior year.  That's also with Sims 3 selling 3.7 M copies. http://microsoft-news.tmcnet.com/news/2009/08/04/4308027.htm

Sega the same thing http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/newsArt.cfm?artid=19145.  Sega is one of the few publishers to give the Wii their best software.

This leads me to two believes.  A. That most software companies are too highly leveraged and will lose money no matter what.

But B.  The best route of some software is to not put it on the Wii.

How do you know that your implication of Wii causing Sega and EA losses is in fact the Wii and not very expensive 360 and PS3 games that sell less than those Wii games?  Sega has the Wii to thank for the highest selling game they have EVER published (Mario and Sonic @ Olympics).  If anything, they probably should throw themselves at Nintendo's feet for still being ALIVE.  But instead they follow this foolish "platform agnostic"  crap, squandering their profits on crap like Golden Axe and The Club.
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Offline Mop it up

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Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
« Reply #99 on: August 07, 2009, 01:58:05 PM »
This topic is supposed to be about brand loyalty, not third-party relations. There are plenty of other topics about that kind of stuff.