Author Topic: The "Game Overthinker" Thread  (Read 27579 times)

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Offline NWR_pap64

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The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« on: March 03, 2009, 07:38:55 PM »
Since we have made threads for Yahtzee and Sean Malstrom I figure I would make a thread for yet another videogame ranter and philosopher; The Game Overthinker (aka moviebob).

Since I subscribe to this videos I get updates as soon as he posts them, so I shall start with this latest video:
An open letter to Nintendo

I was surprised at how somewhat tame this video was considering he is very harsh on topics he heavily disagrees on. He mainly talks about the value of the Nintendo Seal of Quality, the storage solution and the need to re-invent their franchises more often (mainly Mario and Zelda).

I do agree that franchises need to be restarted and re-invented. But the problem I see here is that...

1. When you have a franchise as big as Mario and Zelda would you gamble to experiment with the main entries?

2. No matter what Nintendo does, they will get bashed and criticized for it. Wind Waker was too cartoony. Twilight Princess was too familiar and convoluted. It seems that no matter what Nintendo tries to do they will get bashed for it because we are a generation of games who don't seem to be please with whatever they make.

Also, the video will make Kairon cry (he lists "We Cheer" as an example of shovelware [I think the term shovelware needs to be re-defined]).

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2009, 07:48:45 PM »
huh, not a bad vid, i subscribed
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2009, 07:50:53 PM »
I agree about shovelware needing to be redefined. It seems to be a term the so called "hardcore" gamers like tossing around for genres or games they do not like. Take for example Carnival Games. It is far from shovelware if you go by the ratings, and people DO enjoy the game. When I think of shovelware I think of games like Ninja Bread man, or the other quick cash ins that usually get a 3 or less rating overall from most. They are the broken or cloned junk.
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Offline Mop it up

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2009, 08:00:23 PM »
What exactly is shovelware?

I've always thought that shovelware was a (usually poor) port of a game from another platform, possibly originally released a while before it was ported. Therefore I've always thought it weird when a Wii-exclusive like Carnival Games is dubbed as shovelware; it's unique to Wii and despite its review scores it delivers what it promises.

This logic would also suggest that a shovelware game isn't inherently bad. I've enjoyed some ports of older games on Wii, such as Mercury Meltdown Revolution and ThrilleVille: Off The Rails. Am I... a part of the problem? :o

Offline NWR_pap64

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2009, 08:03:14 PM »
I agree about shovelware needing to be redefined. It seems to be a term the so called "hardcore" gamers like tossing around for genres or games they do not like. Take for example Carnival Games. It is far from shovelware if you go by the ratings, and people DO enjoy the game. When I think of shovelware I think of games like Ninja Bread man, or the other quick cash ins that usually get a 3 or less rating overall from most. They are the broken or cloned junk.

Exactly.

The GO uses "We Cheer" as an example of shovelware, and I think he uses it because he doesn't like the game or doesn't like what it stands for. I say its far from shovelware because from what I read and saw the game has enough polish and debt. It just isn't for everyone.

Mop it up: It seems that the new term for "shovelware" is a game made as a cash in thanks to the success of bigger, better games on the system.

So for example, when Wii Sports and Wii Play became massive hits for Nintendo third parties tried to make their own version of the formula, like Hudson's "Deca Sports" and "Carnival Games". Even if they are polished enough that people like it hardcore gamers bash it on the sole fact that it got mediocre reviews and label it "shovelware".
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 08:05:38 PM by pap64 »
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2009, 08:03:25 PM »
I always thought it meant you were shoveling your crap onto a system.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 08:05:24 PM by GoldenPhoenix »
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Offline Mop it up

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2009, 08:48:31 PM »
What does shovelware actually mean then?

When it comes to Wii games, I think I'm going to go with Wikipedia's definition, especially the bolded part:
Quote from: Wikipedia
Shovelware is a derogatory computer jargon term that refers to software noted more for the quantity of what is included than for the quality or usefulness. The term is also used to refer to software that is ported from one computer platform or storage medium to another with little thought given to adapting it for use on the destination platform or medium.

Offline Stratos

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2009, 12:02:52 AM »
The term has become one of the 'hot topic' terms.

'Epic', 'built from the ground up for Wii' and waggle are a couple of other ones.

He does realize that there has always been crap released on Nintendo consoles, right? Superman 64? BMX XXX
I think the only time Nintendo has actually refused to release a game is when it was one of theirs and they told the devs to spend more time on it. They did that with Rare and Banjo-Kazooie.

The Overthinker guy does some interesting videos. I'll have to keep an eye on him.
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Offline Djunknown

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2009, 12:36:22 AM »
At first I thought he was from Brooklyn or something, than he just talked normal...

Concerning Earthbound, I think he needs to check gaming news. more often.

Interesting thoughts, I'll have to watch more of his videos.
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Offline NWR_pap64

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2009, 02:32:08 AM »
Yeah, I was going to mention that maybe the episode was recorded after the news came out.

If you guys liked this episode you should watch some of his older ones. They are much better than this one.

And DJunknown, the GO is from Boston. I know because S_B's mother is from there and she has a heavy Boston accent, so I recognized it when the GO drops it on ocassion.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2009, 05:03:51 AM »
What exactly is shovelware?

I've always thought that shovelware was a (usually poor) port of a game from another platform, possibly originally released a while before it was ported. Therefore I've always thought it weird when a Wii-exclusive like Carnival Games is dubbed as shovelware; it's unique to Wii and despite its review scores it delivers what it promises.

This logic would also suggest that a shovelware game isn't inherently bad. I've enjoyed some ports of older games on Wii, such as Mercury Meltdown Revolution and ThrilleVille: Off The Rails. Am I... a part of the problem? :o

Shovelware means minimum effort mass production games (they often end up at a budget price too). Ninjabreadman is a prime example: The developer has released about a dozen games all using the same game engine and mechnanics with very little content each only hoping to cash in on the premise (ninja baked goods, playing as Elvis, a Harry Potter clone that might confuse parents, etc). The Simple 2000 series on the PS2 might be another example, 150 or so games in the series and almost all suck (the only notable titles are the EDF and Oneechanbara series with EDF being actually great and Oneechanbara being merely acceptable but having a premise that people care about). Or how about this list...

Offline NWR_pap64

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2009, 11:58:51 AM »
Don't forget "Phoenix Games"! :O

Now regarding his rant about the "Nintendo Seal of Quality". Its funny how he rambles about the seal meaning that the game was great, then admits that it was all a legal term saying that the game was approved by Nintendo.

I am surprised that shovelware is now a problem on the Wii when this has been around for far longer, even during the Atari days!

This is a common side effect to being the most affordable console to develop for. The PSone and PS2 had a lot of shovelware titles because at the time they were the best selling consoles, and the logic with these games is that if they are released on the most popular console more people will buy them. Now that the Wii is the biggest console in the worldwide the focus shifted and now the Wii is getting these titles.

Now, what he said about these shovelware titles overshadowing Nintendo's own efforts is silly. I've always been Gamestop and I've only seen "Chicken Shoot" on the racks once while "Mario Galaxy" is still there, selling. The point is that Nintendo titles will always be there and will always sell, no matter what games is released and at what store it is displayed.

He should have mentioned instead that this affects THIRD PARTY DEVELOPERS ON WII.

This is why I think its his weakest episode yet since he usually makes great theories that make sense.
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Offline DAaaMan64

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2009, 12:14:31 PM »
"... even during the Atari days!"

LOL any retard could develop and produce for any given console in those days. There was probably a higher concentration of crap then than anytime. The industry CRASHED in 83' as a result of an over abundance of shovel and no demand for it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_Game_Crash_of_1983

Not that I'm saying Nintendo will crash the industry, I'm saying "even in the Atari days" is like saying even jews died in the 40's.

LOL sorry it's all I could think of.
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Offline NWR_pap64

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2009, 12:30:37 PM »
"... even during the Atari days!"

LOL any retard could develop and produce for any given console in those days. There was probably a higher concentration of crap then than anytime. The industry CRASHED in 83' as a result of an over abundance of shovel and no demand for it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_Game_Crash_of_1983

Not that I'm saying Nintendo will crash the industry, I'm saying "even in the Atari days" is like saying even jews died in the 40's.

LOL sorry it's all I could think of.

I was exaggerating my claims. Just saying that shovelware has always been a problem, yet now its important when it happens on a Nintendo console.

Does this mean that no one truly cared for Sony's consoles?
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2009, 02:03:22 PM »
Don't forget "Phoenix Games"! :O

There are so many more that I don't even know half of them. They are legion.

Now, what he said about these shovelware titles overshadowing Nintendo's own efforts is silly. I've always been Gamestop and I've only seen "Chicken Shoot" on the racks once while "Mario Galaxy" is still there, selling. The point is that Nintendo titles will always be there and will always sell, no matter what games is released and at what store it is displayed.

Yeah and the game he mentions as losing shelf space is one of the games that got the most shelf space of any Wii game, I've seen stores allocate like 1/6th of their total Wii shelf to SSBB.

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2009, 05:00:55 PM »
I think he would have been more correct if he had said that the ones losing shelf space are good third party developers, which affects Nintendo in the long run.

Nintendo doesn't have problem with shelf space. Third parties, specially smaller third parties, however do have that problem because stores (specially stores like Wal-mart) place emphasis on titles they think will sell or need to get rid off, while the better ones are sent to the back.
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2009, 05:15:18 PM »
The Wal-Mart I constantly report on has THREE shelves for Wii games as opposed to two for each the HD systems.  One shelf is full of budget titles $20 and below, and the other two are mostly filled with new-release shovelware.
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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2009, 01:00:48 AM »
After to listening 1-10 (couldn't find 2), I can say I dig his style. Malstrom is the business guy, Yahtzee is the cynic, this guy is...a philosopher. He's more than a voice of reason. Aside from borrowing Yahtzee's use of well timed frames, he's got his own clever memes.

The two that stick out for me are the ones where he's talking about patriotism in video games, and the objectification of women in games. Its a shame he has to stick to youtube's time limit...
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Offline NWR_pap64

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2009, 01:36:51 AM »
After to listening 1-10 (couldn't find 2), I can say I dig his style. Malstrom is the business guy, Yahtzee is the cynic, this guy is...a philosopher. He's more than a voice of reason. Aside from borrowing Yahtzee's use of well timed frames, he's got his own clever memes.

The two that stick out for me are the ones where he's talking about patriotism in video games, and the objectification of women in games. Its a shame he has to stick to youtube's time limit...

Here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iNs5iG2h34&feature=channel_page

A fantastic episode about how sometimes some female characters in gaming (mainly the princesses in Nintendo's game) are not worth the anger they get from feminist.
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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2009, 01:26:02 PM »
Oh, one more thing...

I see the GO as a critical thinker, thinking beyond ideas, criticizing reality and telling the gritty nitty truth about things. Not to mention that he has a bit of a smart ass attitude, something somewhat common among critical thinkers.

Philosophers tend to be a bit more romantic and idealistic in their thoughts.
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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2009, 07:06:20 PM »
Well, as promised he posted his "Sonic in Crisis" video, except it will be a two parter and what we got was part two:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hik-TeGQIn0

(Note: If the site appears upside down and gibberish, its an April Fool's prank).

While he mentions some the typical complains about Sonic (Not having his creators work on his games,  the supporting cast sucks etc.) I was surprised to see him go back to the Genesis games and analyze them, ending with the conclusion that maybe the problem started way back during the "Golde age" of Sonic, a time many say was FLAWLESS for the character when discussing "Sonic sucks now".

I agree with him that his problems may have started when there was no set storyline for the series and that his appeal may have been a gimmick, a product of the rivalry between Sega and Nintendo.

This is a great episode, and its the moviebob I love and respect (and his accent doesn't slip at all in this one!).
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Offline Stratos

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2009, 08:00:23 PM »
Good thoughts. I'm interested in seeing how and why Sonic should be saved.
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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2009, 08:10:02 PM »
One thing that surprised me about his analysis is that he mentioned something very few people realize; that Sonic was created with the mentality of being cooler, better and faster than Mario and how that affected his status.

I'll also agree that the main reason he is still around is because of nostalgia.
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Offline Stratos

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2009, 08:31:36 PM »
One thing that surprised me about his analysis is that he mentioned something very few people realize; that Sonic was created with the mentality of being cooler, better and faster than Mario and how that affected his status.

I'll also agree that the main reason he is still around is because of nostalgia.

Yes, that was an excellent point he made. I agree that much of the Sonic cast is uninspiring. Plus the Sonic-human thing on the 360 was odd.

It makes me wonder what currently hot mascots will be like ten years from now. Will Master Chief age as well as Mario? A lot of other, non-Nintendo mascots have not aged very well. Crash Bandicoot, Spyro and Lara Croft are not very well off now.

Nintendo characters seems to have a Classic Disney caliber in remaining charming through the ages.
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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2009, 09:40:40 PM »
I think Nintendo characters fall under two categories:
- The charismatic type: These characters are cute, colorful, funny and very memorable. Even if they don't say much they shine thanks to their happy attitude, colorful dispositions and cartoony attributes.
Examples: The entire Mario cast, Pokemon, Kirby

- The enigmatic type: These characters shine thanks to their mysterious, dark stories. They don't say much and keep a lot of things secret, making the player yearn to learn more about them, seek out their past and guide them through their quest.
Examples: Link, Samus

Nintendo is the type of company that doesn't care for trends, what's popular and fads. They aim to create fun games everyone can enjoy, they love going against a train of thought and their characters reflect that mentality.

While many characters have either gone dark (Jak and Daxter) or gotten cooler (Sonic) Mario is still Mario. Yes, he now speaks, laughs, hoots and screams in a high voice, but he is still the charismatic, timeless plumber we met in the 80s. Link may have gotten several makeovers but he is still the quiet hero that has skills and courage. And finally, Kirby is still cute after all these years.

Like the GO mentions, it also helps that their original creators are still working at Nintendo and are still supervising the latest games, even the spin offs. Sonic' creators are everywhere now, and none of the best designers stayed behind.

I think I can guess what the GO will suggest on the next episode; For Sega to try and make nice with the original Sonic Team members, to focus more on basic gameplay and less gimmicks and give Sonic a solid personality rather than just making him the cool, "Poochy" like hero he's been since the 90s. Create a timeless personality so to speak.
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