Author Topic: Game Over: One final rant...  (Read 111832 times)

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Offline Infernal Monkey

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Re: Game Over: One final rant...
« Reply #50 on: January 25, 2009, 06:11:01 AM »
Haha, Mario just linked me to this. Bill's been fighting the good fight for quite some time, but I'm still kinda surprised he's leaving. And for exact same reason I pissed off out of here last year. This forum is a complete joke for anyone that actually wants to discuss video games. You've let the trolls like Ian run free for far too long. Every thread is instantly derailed with the same tired bullshit. Kinda sad, too. I've made some amazing friends here. This used to be a fun place to post. Props for surviving here a lot longer than I did, Bill. See you on MSN!

Also, Mario was banned? Jesus, what the hell. Enjoy your tumbleweed, NWR.

Offline Dasmos

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Re: Game Over: One final rant...
« Reply #51 on: January 25, 2009, 06:26:40 AM »
I feel like Ian’s been swinging trashbags around the forum for years. Sure, he’s got a right to his opinion just like everyone else. My beef with that is he’s been flogging that opinion for so long its become tired and bordering on absurd. That’s the annoying part.

This.

Ian's arguments and opinions aren't new, they've already been discussed at length in at least 100 different threads over a period of years. It's old and stale and I have basically stopped trying to respond to any of his post's in a civil manner because he just doesn't get it. And the truth is he never will.

Haha, Mario just linked me to this. Bill's been fighting the good fight for quite some time, but I'm still kinda surprised he's leaving. And for exact same reason I pissed off out of here last year. This forum is a complete joke for anyone that actually wants to discuss video games. You've let the trolls like Ian run free for far too long. Every thread is instantly derailed with the same tired bullshit. Kinda sad, too. I've made some amazing friends here. This used to be a fun place to post. Props for surviving here a lot longer than I did, Bill. See you on MSN!

Also, Mario was banned? Jesus, what the hell. Enjoy your tumbleweed, NWR.

Yeah, mid-last year was when NWR really bottomed out. It's improved since then, but barely.
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Offline nitsu niflheim

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Re: Game Over: One final rant...
« Reply #52 on: January 25, 2009, 07:59:22 AM »
I've been more or less on my way out the past year and a half, really I don't see a reason to stay if the good people are picked on while the idiots get to say what they like and when called on they run to the mods and hold on to their skirts.

Sorry, Pale, but you have not been a fair Mod.  From the beginning you have more or less turned a blind eye to the obvious and instead decided to take a so called stand on the most idiotic reasons.  And NO and I a not going to go searching through the archives for an example.  It's just fact, and really it's been pointed out already. You want people to be nice to each other, IT'S NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN,  WHY DO YOU EVEN BOTHER?  All you do is give Ian more an excuse to continue while people like Bill feel like they've just had a huge pile of crap dumped on thier heads.

Lindy, it may not be your agenda, but you sure as hell come off as a instigator in anti-Nintendo sentiment.  Your remarks in the past speak for themselves.

Bill, good luck, I'll see you around the internet one form or another.

And as for Mario.  I've "known" him for a while now and know that for the most part he is being facetious and anybody who doesn't  know that should have a long time ago.  If he was deliberately breaking the rules, did any of you mods think that maybe there was a reason why.  Ian is possibly the worst member on this forum, but you refuse to call him out.  Is it because it's easier to go after the ones that fight back, (which is just about the most cowardly and slimy thing possible) or are one of you really Ian?

Have you realized that NWR has not been a very active place the past couple of years?  It doesn't take a genius to realize that when you let people like Ian decide the attitude and environment of the place, then people won't want to come back.

Just go and look at the welcome thread.  How many of those people are still here?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2009, 08:01:35 AM by nitsu niflheim »
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Offline Nick DiMola

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Re: Game Over: One final rant...
« Reply #53 on: January 25, 2009, 08:05:49 AM »
Well I'm sorry you guys feel the way you do. I know for a fact that Pale and I are in and out of the forums all day, checking threads and watching what's going on. As a result, I think things seem more mod happy than they really are.

Also keep in mind that the "Report to Moderator" link that appears on every post directly links to the staff's email. Typically anything you've seen modded is a result of multiple posters complaining and pointing it out to staff. Yes, we make the final call, so it isn't like we do what people ask verbatim, but when you have a number of members complaining, you deal with it, just as many of you have pointed out.

To be totally honest, I've checked out of the forums largely as well, but for the exact opposite reasons as many of you. I got tired of personal attacks against anyone who questioned anything Nintendo did. You couldn't say you liked x game in the series better than y without the whole world shitting on you. You couldn't say that you enjoyed an HD game because, "HD gaming is a waste, etc, etc, etc." It got annoying.

Just because this is a Nintendo forum doesn't mean we can't talk about non-Nintendo games. As a matter of fact, I think this was the ideal place to talk about non-Nintendo games, because as Nintendo fans we all share similar tastes. For me, discussion became far too polarized. Whether I defended one side or the other, someone **** on me, and it got really annoying.

You can all complain about Ian, but the guy at least has common courtesy. I tend to agree with him from time to time, and on a number of occasions I have seen him spark good debate; when people aren't dismissing him by calling him a retard and leaving the thread. If you guys can't stand the guy so much, ignore him. Don't fling **** and expect the mods to not do anything.

I'm sorry that you are leaving the site Bill, I think you definitely brought good discussion here, and I know you will be missed. I'm also sorry that a number of you don't see the heart in NWR any more, but it is there. Remember, every single person on this staff is a volunteer. Many of us treat the site as a second job, and invest a massive amount of our personal time into it when we get home from school/work/whatever. We know some people don't appreciate what we do, but we do it because we love it and because we are all still Nintendo fans at heart.
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Offline TheFleece

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Re: Game Over: One final rant...
« Reply #54 on: January 25, 2009, 09:40:54 AM »
I've been reading the thread and trying figure out how I feel about this. I'm still pretty new to the forums and so I'm not very familiar with everyone's actions. I will just say that this is a community that is formed by what people put into it- not the mods, but the users. We all make this a place and reason to come back. It's always tough to interact with someone who has a one track motive in any situation, but I think that trying to suggest that Ian's posts be ignored is wrong because it goes against the MO of a forum.
It sucks to see Bill leave, I liked his posts and opinions. In general any member leaving because of the actions of another member is a sad reaction. This is the only Nintendo site I visit and also the only forums I deal with. I realize how the site is run and take the size of the staff into account when I see lots of reviews flying around and see nothing here, but I accept it because I come here for the forums, before it was about the podcast, but now it's about playing games and talking it out with everyone.
Bill, your presence will be missed. Peace.
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Offline NWR_pap64

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Re: Game Over: One final rant...
« Reply #55 on: January 25, 2009, 10:25:07 AM »
Well, on the positive side I hope this thread gets noticed by the staff and decide to do something about this.

Didn't Ian get warned once? I think it was on a SSB thread, one of the mods pretty much told him to tone it down and he did calm down for a bit afterwards.

Anyone remember this?
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Offline Pale

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Re: Game Over: One final rant...
« Reply #56 on: January 25, 2009, 11:09:31 AM »
We decided to do something about all of this prior to this thread.  All comments are definitely being taken into account.

I urge everyone to make use of the report to moderator feature going forward though.
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Offline ThePerm

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Re: Game Over: One final rant...
« Reply #57 on: January 25, 2009, 11:21:42 AM »
Thefleece said it  pretty well
I think it should be more of a shock for those who run the website if one of the senior members leave. Bill represents the core of the website, if the core of the website falls apart then it just shows the website that it has become poor. I remember there used to be a ton of websites that I went to back in the day like opn2000, projectn2000, tendobox, tendoproject, ign64, nintendojo. The difference between all of those was at least two the website were competent and cared about their readers. At some point it was a struggle to get hits and it was important to keep viewers reeled in. The fish are swimming away.
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Offline NWR_pap64

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Re: Game Over: One final rant...
« Reply #58 on: January 25, 2009, 12:07:41 PM »
We decided to do something about all of this prior to this thread.  All comments are definitely being taken into account.

I urge everyone to make use of the report to moderator feature going forward though.

Speaking of the "report to moderator" feature, I hope that if people use it the mods do take the claims into consideration.

One time, back when the Brawl forum was still around I was in an argument with someone (don't remember who) and that person called me a hypocrite. When I warned a mod about it all he said was "Eh, it was a mild insult". Whether the insult was harsh or mild it was still a personal attack, and those are against the rules.

So if people do use the feature please read what they have to say before jumping into conclusions.
Pedro Hernandez
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Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Game Over: One final rant...
« Reply #59 on: January 25, 2009, 12:30:18 PM »
This is what happens when I go out of town for a couple of days.... :(

Offline vudu

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Re: Game Over: One final rant...
« Reply #60 on: January 25, 2009, 01:13:34 PM »
One time, back when the Brawl forum was still around I was in an argument with someone (don't remember who) and that person called me a hypocrite. When I warned a mod about it all he said was "Eh, it was a mild insult". Whether the insult was harsh or mild it was still a personal attack, and those are against the rules.

I only vaguely recall this incident, but I'm inclined to agree with the mod on this one.  Someone calling you a hypocrite isn't a direct insult.  It sounds like someone disagreed with you and you went crying to mommy.  Mommy told you to grow a pair.  (Believe it or not, I don't mean this in a rude way--it's just the only way I can think to describe it.)

If someone called you a moron for saying two different things at different times it's an insult.  If someone calls you a hypocrite for the same reason it's not an insult, they're just calling you out.
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Offline Kairon

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Re: Game Over: One final rant...
« Reply #61 on: January 25, 2009, 01:16:55 PM »
After the last E3, no one here has or at lease shows their love for Nintendo anymore.

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Offline EasyCure

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Re: Game Over: One final rant...
« Reply #62 on: January 25, 2009, 01:31:44 PM »
So I finally got around to reading that FF XIII thread that keeps being mentioned (i've never, EVER been into FF games and rarely go into the general gaming boards since I only own Nintendo consoles) and... wow. What a train wreck.

Personally I thought Bill/Deg were being treated unfairly because of the complete dismissal of Ians troll-post. Yes, it was trolling because as stated it had nothing to do with the topic at hand, and a troll doesn't neccesiarily have to mean someone who attacks others, one could get away with trolling by simply flaming others and be the one attacked and have no ramifications set against themselves; see Pale's comments to Bill & Deg, yet nothing was said to Ian who really never returned to the thread (as far as we know).

That ymeegod person was pretty rude as well and no one did anything.

This next statement might be more of an emotional response due to reading that thread AFTER what happened and its end results, but... Pale came off as kind of 'fanboyish' and if i were in a position where i felt like my back was against a wall becuase my views were opposite of his, I might of been just a litle more upset that an obvious troll was being overlooked and I was the one being picked on.
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Offline NWR_Lindy

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Re: Game Over: One final rant...
« Reply #63 on: January 25, 2009, 01:46:41 PM »
Yes, we read every single moderator report that comes in.  I can assure you of that.  However, Pale is the Community Manager, and I defer to him because I think he does a great job.

Understand that in order to get perma-banned, you have to REALLY try hard.  We don't ban people without cause, we don't do it on a whim, and we don't get any pleasure out of doing it (frankly, it's a bunch of drama we don't need).  Mario misbehaved repeatedly.  Being facetious is one thing, but coming in and dropping f-bombs for no reason whatsoever is entirely another.  He absolutely deserved to be banned.  His tenure here doesn't entitle him to a blank check in terms of his behavior.

As for Ian, from what I see people don't like his opinions.  I'm not going to ban anybody on this forum for their opinions.  That goes against the very nature of what these forums stand for.  Myself and the staff have watched Ian for a long time, and if he was breaking rules all over the place he'd already be gone.  He doesn't launch personal attacks, he really doesn't swear, and he does raise points.  I'm not defending the guy, but I am being fair.  In all honesty, I've seen many occasions when Ian will actually raise a good point, only to be attacked with vitriol by several people who are reacting based on their opinion of him rather than what he has actually posted.  It takes two to tango in any flame war.  Some people simply refuse to walk away from an argument and agree to disagree, and would rather stoke the flames in a fruitless effort to prove that they're right instead of defusing the situation.

With that said, if somebody thinks somebody else is trolling, please use the Report to Moderator feature.  That's what it's there for.  For all of the complaining that people do about Ian, I can't recall any of the offended parties ever reporting his posts to us.  If I'm wrong here forgive me, but I get all moderator reports in email and I look at every single one.  I can't be in every thread, but I do get every email.

I can't directly control whether or not people stay or leave this forum.  That's up to them.  Instead, I'm going to focus on what I can control: the quality of Nintendo coverage we have, the timeliness of news, the quality and quantity of reviews, and the quality and quantity of special features.  And rest assured that I am dedicated to improving all of those things.  However, it will take time and effort.  You guys may not see the effort from your vantage point, but it's happening.  It will take some time to bear fruit, but the seeds are being planted.  I hope you all stick around to see it.
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Offline Stogi

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Re: Game Over: One final rant...
« Reply #64 on: January 25, 2009, 02:05:26 PM »
Not going to lie...I thought Bill was stronger than this. He was always known to me as the biggest Nintendo fan on here. In most topics in the past, it was always Ian with the pessimism and Bill with the optimism.

Nothing's changed. It's weird for him to all the sudden be fed up with it, especially considering the state of Nintendo today.


I'm honestly disappointed.
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Offline NWR_pap64

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Re: Game Over: One final rant...
« Reply #65 on: January 25, 2009, 02:13:12 PM »
Not going to lie...I thought Bill was stronger than this. He was always known to me as the biggest Nintendo fan on here. In most topics in the past, it was always Ian with the pessimism and Bill with the optimism.

Nothing's changed. It's weird for him to all the sudden be fed up with it, especially considering the state of Nintendo today.


I'm honestly disappointed.

I'm surprised as well. The forums have seen worse (the final name of the Revolution, E3 2008, the launch of the Wii, Red Steel etc.) and people have held in there. In comparison the forums are calmer save for a few.

The reason I left a few months ago was because gaming discussion was in the pit. People were too busy being negative, angsty and ranty in order to discuss game, and that annoyed me. Note that this happened around the end of E3 2008. Now things are a tad different. Hell, people are discussing City Folk without much tension.
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Offline Kairon

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Re: Game Over: One final rant...
« Reply #66 on: January 25, 2009, 02:32:10 PM »
Hell, people are discussing City Folk without much tension.

YES. Gosh darn it people when will you get it in your heads that NINTENDO WAS RIGHT!!! AAARRRGGGHHH!!!!!
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Offline nitsu niflheim

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Re: Game Over: One final rant...
« Reply #67 on: January 25, 2009, 02:39:57 PM »
One time, back when the Brawl forum was still around I was in an argument with someone (don't remember who) and that person called me a hypocrite. When I warned a mod about it all he said was "Eh, it was a mild insult". Whether the insult was harsh or mild it was still a personal attack, and those are against the rules.

I only vaguely recall this incident, but I'm inclined to agree with the mod on this one.  Someone calling you a hypocrite isn't a direct insult.  It sounds like someone disagreed with you and you went crying to mommy.  Mommy told you to grow a pair.  (Believe it or not, I don't mean this in a rude way--it's just the only way I can think to describe it.)

If someone called you a moron for saying two different things at different times it's an insult.  If someone calls you a hypocrite for the same reason it's not an insult, they're just calling you out.

Calling someone a hypocrite is a direct personal attack.  Being called a hypocrite is not a nice thing.  Regardless of whether it's mild or harsh.  And if that's against the rules then it's against the rules.  It just goes to show that depending on the Mod who gets the complaint the discipline or lack there of, is where the problem is.  There should be one standard and all members should be held to that and Mods should not pick and choose how they act on the complaints.

The problem with Mods is some don't know the difference between friends and business friends. 
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Offline Sessha

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Re: Game Over: One final rant...
« Reply #68 on: January 25, 2009, 02:46:53 PM »
Well that really sucks, I was never around that long, I was a lurker a long time from the planetgamecube days and then for a while I posted around but there were a few members I thought would be around forever, Bill, Pap, Kairon, and Ian.  It really won't be the same without him. 
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Offline EasyCure

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Re: Game Over: One final rant...
« Reply #69 on: January 25, 2009, 02:50:46 PM »
The saddest part is even if things changed tomorrow, Bill wouldn't be back in full force because of his personal/proffesional life.. He was going to have to go eventualy, and this wasn't how it shuld've been.
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Re: Game Over: One final rant...
« Reply #70 on: January 25, 2009, 02:53:58 PM »
Wow lots of former posters are chiming in on this.It makes ya think how much Bill meant to them and the forums.

I agree completely EasyCure.
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Offline vudu

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Re: Game Over: One final rant...
« Reply #71 on: January 25, 2009, 02:59:22 PM »
Understand that in order to get perma-banned, you have to REALLY try hard.  We don't ban people without cause, we don't do it on a whim, and we don't get any pleasure out of doing it (frankly, it's a bunch of drama we don't need).

And this is a big part of the problem as far as I'm concerned.  Why treat banning as a last resort?  It's not a nuke (that would be shutting down the forums completely); it's a targeted assault.  (I can't believe I'm saying this, but) Kotaku is great because they regularly ban terrible posters.  If someone is all around sucky, get rid of them.  Posting is a privilege, not a right.  If nothing else, I think you should temp-ban people at the drop of a hat.  It would keep people on their toes and make them think before they post something for the world to see.

EDIT:  I am not referring to anyone specific poster.  Truth be told, I don't think we have that many people fit into the above category.  But they are out there, and life would be better if they were gone.

I can't directly control whether or not people stay or leave this forum.  That's up to them.

Well there goes my entire belief system.  ;D
« Last Edit: January 25, 2009, 03:01:37 PM by vudu »
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Offline NWR_pap64

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Re: Game Over: One final rant...
« Reply #72 on: January 25, 2009, 03:12:06 PM »
One time, back when the Brawl forum was still around I was in an argument with someone (don't remember who) and that person called me a hypocrite. When I warned a mod about it all he said was "Eh, it was a mild insult". Whether the insult was harsh or mild it was still a personal attack, and those are against the rules.

I only vaguely recall this incident, but I'm inclined to agree with the mod on this one.  Someone calling you a hypocrite isn't a direct insult.  It sounds like someone disagreed with you and you went crying to mommy.  Mommy told you to grow a pair.  (Believe it or not, I don't mean this in a rude way--it's just the only way I can think to describe it.)

If someone called you a moron for saying two different things at different times it's an insult.  If someone calls you a hypocrite for the same reason it's not an insult, they're just calling you out.

Calling someone a hypocrite is a direct personal attack.  Being called a hypocrite is not a nice thing.  Regardless of whether it's mild or harsh.  And if that's against the rules then it's against the rules.  It just goes to show that depending on the Mod who gets the complaint the discipline or lack there of, is where the problem is.  There should be one standard and all members should be held to that and Mods should not pick and choose how they act on the complaints.

The problem with Mods is some don't know the difference between friends and business friends. 

Exactly my point.

It doesn't matter if the insult is mild or harsh, the important thing is that if the rules say no direct personal attacks no matter the commenter or the topic  then it should be enforcer and everyone warned. I didn't ask for the guy to get warned but a warning was indeed needed and that's mainly what I wanted.

I've been to forums where they are far much strict as to what you can do or say, and people accept it just fine. Some people seem to forget that when you sign up to a forum you first have to accept the terms of service. When you accept it you agree to all of the rules and accept to be disciplined if you break them. Mods and staff members also seem to forget this and either ignore the offending posts or go easy on them.

Both the staff members and the forum members are bound to the rules as mentioned in the ToS. All must follow it. Once this is done everyone gets respect points and the forums have credibility.
Pedro Hernandez
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Offline Kairon

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Re: Game Over: One final rant...
« Reply #73 on: January 25, 2009, 03:15:08 PM »
Understand that in order to get perma-banned, you have to REALLY try hard.  We don't ban people without cause, we don't do it on a whim, and we don't get any pleasure out of doing it (frankly, it's a bunch of drama we don't need).

And this is a big part of the problem as far as I'm concerned.  Why treat banning as a last resort?  It's not a nuke (that would be shutting down the forums completely); it's a targeted assault.  (I can't believe I'm saying this, but) Kotaku is great because they regularly ban terrible posters.  If someone is all around sucky, get rid of them.  Posting is a privilege, not a right.  If nothing else, I think you should temp-ban people at the drop of a hat.  It would keep people on their toes and make them think before they post something for the world to see.

EDIT:  I am not referring to anyone specific poster.  Truth be told, I don't think we have that many people fit into the above category.  But they are out there, and life would be better if they were gone.

I don't think I'm comfortable with the idea that banning should be used to weed out "sub-standard" posters. Most of those people GoldenPhoenix seems perfectly capable of chasing away on her own... j/k &P

Calling someone a hypocrite is a direct personal attack.  Being called a hypocrite is not a nice thing.  Regardless of whether it's mild or harsh.  And if that's against the rules then it's against the rules.  It just goes to show that depending on the Mod who gets the complaint the discipline or lack there of, is where the problem is.  There should be one standard and all members should be held to that and Mods should not pick and choose how they act on the complaints.

I don't know. Is it a personal attack if someone is specifically called a hypocrite? Is it a personal attack if their actions are described as hypocritical? What's the difference?
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A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
The sun, for sorrow, will not show his head:
Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Sega and her Mashiro.

Offline NWR_pap64

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Re: Game Over: One final rant...
« Reply #74 on: January 25, 2009, 03:25:55 PM »
Regarding the hypocrite comment to be perfectly honest I don't remember who said it or on what thread it happened. What I remember was that it was a Brawl thread. Those that know me remember that I made a lot of comment regarding Brawl, from conspiracy theories in the story mode to the bad online mode. This annoyed people, especially when many just wanted to enjoy the game.

This happened in one of those discussions. The poster directly called me a hypocrite for a comment he disagreed on and rather than trying to discuss it he wanted to fight it. It just struck me as odd because we were discussing a game, and while we do get passionate about games around here I think calling someone a hypocrite over gaming discussion is pretty harsh.
Pedro Hernandez
NWR Staff Writer