Topic: Raise Your Standards

[Shift Key]

I think some of the staff contracted the Whino virus.

[TheFleece]

The graphical style for the upcoming Ghostbusters games is something that burns me. The other systems get the same game that has a realistic visual setting while the Wii version is outright cartoonish. I bet that the game will be fun to play, but the graphical style makes me feel like I'm not going to be playing the same game and won't get the same experience. I can understand that happening to a portable title, but I also won't pretend like the Wii couldn't handle a realistic design.
Whining gets nothing done so again, as consumers is there any way that voting with your dollar makes any impact? Some titles you just can't stop and all the rest just die on the shelves and become rental zombies. I can raise my standards all I want, but then I end up sounding like a whining Nintendo fan. Is there any way the consumer voice can be heard in the video game industry?

[Ceric]

Final finished reading it all.  Personally my go to game series where Graphics is concerned for an example is Warcraft.  Particularly Warcraft 2 vs Warcraft 3.  Warcraft 2 still look excellently simply because they picked an art style that worked with the technology and looked good. While Warcraft 3 didn't look exactly great at release.

I'm playing Zak and Wiki right now.  Is it the prettiest most graphic intensive game in the world no.  Though what it does do is pick an art style and apply it well.  If I popped into Zak and Wiki's universe tomorrow I believe that the Universe and I would look exactly how the game portrays.  For e its the little steps to immersion.

[NWR_Lindy]

Jonny's point is that the majority of games that we're getting should have Wii-level graphics.  Instead, we're getting games with GameCube-level graphics that happen to be on the Wii platform.  If the majority of games on the DS looked like GBA games, would you be happy with that?  Even if the gameplay was good, wouldn't that eventually annoy you a little bit?  Wouldn't you feel a bit cheated?

Control scheme aside, if all I'm getting is GameCube-level graphics, why did I buy a Wii?  I'm not "whining", I'm just playing devil's advocate here.  Right now, I figure the top seven games on Wii are:

SSB: Brawl
Okami
Resident Evil 4
Zack & Wiki
Mario Galaxy
Zelda: Twilight Princess
Metroid Prime 3

Aside from Zack & Wiki and Okami, I can find suitable replacements (or, in the case of Zelda, literally the same game) on GameCube.  Even Okami is a port of a GameCube-generation game, and I believe Metroid Prime 3 started out on the GameCube as well.  Brawl and Galaxy are arguably the only two games that truly harness the Wii's power, and I think that's pretty disappointing.  Combine this fact with Nintendo's focus on graphics-irrelevant games like Wii Sports Resort, Animal Crossing, and Wii Music, and you begin to realize that pushing the Wii hardware to its limits - essentially, giving us part of what we paid for, which is an improved visual experience on top of everything else the Wii offers - isn't really Nintendo's priority any more (outside of the Mario and Zelda franchises, of course).

And if Nintendo isn't going to push the Wii hardware with anything but their one or two biggest titles, who will?

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

BWii does plenty of harnessing.

[NWR_Lindy]

BWii does plenty of harnessing.

...and you can also get a similar experience on GameCube.  This is exactly what I'm talking about.

[Deguello]

And if Nintendo isn't going to push the Wii hardware with anything but their one or two biggest titles, who will?

Well, what about that narrative where 3rd parties piss their pants every time they have to go up against Nintendo's titles?  Hell, look at what Nintendo showed at and you could just see them artificially holding back titles in progress, and only showing the graphically simple games.  They were literally BEGGING for a third party to steal the show from them.  IT's a rare occurrence for the usually profit and attention-happy Nintendo to literally give up their Q3 and Q4 just so third parties can "have a chance" on the biggest userbase in the world.  And they still are interested in utilizing graphics, or else they wouldn't have funded and agreed to publish that Fatal Frame game in Japan, which should probably be localized here too.

And why do third parties feel the need to ape Nintendo at every turn anyway?  Just because Nintendo "focuses" one E3 on games like Wii music (similar to them "focusing" on Electroplankton and Brain Age in E3 2006) doesn't mean all the third parties, who for years found the courage to defy Nintendo's innovations and projects, should fall in behind Nintendo lockstep and copy their every move.

Also notice Nintendo isn't responsible for the best looking DS game ATM either, despite Nintendo's "focus" on non-graphically-intensive games like Nintendogs and Brain Training.  That's just what being the market leader will do for you, and I'm hearing it's starting to work out that way for the Wii as well, especially if NPD reports keep showing Wii breaking sales records for months.  The PS1 had to deal just just such a torrent of low-effort **** and Sony certainly wasn't interested in pushing it's graphics either.

Somebody's just going to have to take a risk and try the Wii out for a core game.  Just like Square took a risk with FFVII, Konami took a risk with MGS on the PS1, and like Nintendo took two big risks with DS and Wii.  And these risks are independent of other companies.

Or they can just stay "safe and watch their profits dwindle, their companies merged and destroyed, as Nintendo continues to rake in all the money from this generation.  It's their choice.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

BWii does plenty of harnessing.

...and you can also get a similar experience on GameCube.  This is exactly what I'm talking about.

And somehow that's different than the rest of the industry?  What are you asking for?

[Ceric]

You know what the sad part of all this is.  I always believed that the Gamecube ever only used half of its potential...

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

You know what the sad part of all this is.  I always believed that the Gamecube ever only used half of its potential...

Well you need to come back to reality.  Metroid, RE, Zelda, Wave Race, Pikmin, and Battalion Wars already show the full potential of the system, in different ways.  The other imaginary "half" of its potential went to Wii as a waggle wand.

[Ceric]

You know what the sad part of all this is.  I always believed that the Gamecube ever only used half of its potential...

Well you need to come back to reality.  Metroid, RE, Zelda, Wave Race, Pikmin, and Battalion Wars already show the full potential of the system, in different ways.  The other imaginary "half" of its potential went to Wii as a waggle wand.

*shrug*  You know what else Battalion Wars and Prime 2 broke my machine, also F-Zero.

Also I leave from being regular for a while and you ditch Daisy, become Serious, and I lose the ability to watch any of you linked videos...

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Only Serious Internet here.

[GoldenPhoenix]

why did I buy a Wii?

Why buy a 360 or PS3 when you could get similar experiences on PS2 and Xbox? If anything Wii has brought more to the table with a unique control scheme THAT is the reason why you got it a Wii, it wasn't because of visuals but the controller itself which was FRESH and is still progressing.

[D_Average]

why did I buy a Wii?

Why buy a 360 or PS3 when you could get similar experiences on PS2 and Xbox? If anything Wii has brought more to the table with a unique control scheme THAT is the reason why you got it a Wii, it wasn't because of visuals but the controller itself which was FRESH and is still progressing.

I disagree.  There are only TWO games I have to get off the couch to play, Wii Sports, and Wario Ware.  The control scheme is still only a glimpse of greater things to come.

[Ian Sane]

Why buy a 360 or PS3 when you could get similar experiences on PS2 and Xbox? If anything Wii has brought more to the table with a unique control scheme THAT is the reason why you got it a Wii, it wasn't because of visuals but the controller itself which was FRESH and is still progressing.

I bought a Wii because I wanted to play Nintendo's new games and they were being made for a new console I didn't own.  That's why anyone buys a PS3 or X360 as well.  The company more or less shuts down the old console and you make the new purchase or you can't play the new games.

Of course it kind of sucks to have to pay a couple hundred dollars every five years so you expect a fair trade-off.  The new hardware has to impress in such a way that the games could not have been made on the old console.  In other words we look for justification for the new machine aside from a corporation wanting to sell us an expensive new product.

Personally I think all three consoles SUCK at that justification.  The Wii feels like a Gamcube with a weird controller that I'm not sold on.  Well I like it when it's used right but to me it's like a lightgun, very awesome for some games and unsuitable for all others.  The justification for the Wii's existence is more just to provide Nintendo with a fresh start.  Otherwise they probably could have just released the remote as an accessory for the Cube.  There is also the online stuff but that's stuff that SHOULD have been on the Cube.  It's last gen functionality debuting on the Wii because Nintendo was behind with the times.

I find the other consoles have a noticable jump in graphics but it isn't as big of a jump as before.  When the Wii was annouced I argued that superior hardware doesn't just help graphics but also can improve AI and have more characters on the screen and stuff like that.  So there is a justification but it doesn't seem THAT necessary.  Not as necessary as the PS2 was from the PS1.

The honest truth is that I think we could have decided that the Xbox, PS2 and Gamecube hardware could be the standard for the next ten years and it would have been fine.  Nintendo in theory could still have released the remote for it and introduced some online plan since the Gamecube is capable of going onlne.  The reason for the current consoles is mostly just business related.  Nintendo needed to start fresh.  Sony needed to push Blu-Ray.  Microsoft wanted to get a jump on Sony by switching to the next gen early.  But for us gamers the whole thing is almost a rip-off.

But they still should try really hard to convince us that there was more to that to justify moving to this generation.

If they move ahead again in five years it's probably going to really look unnecessary.  Graphics can only get so good so the space between new hardware should logically increase as time goes on.  Console caught up to arcades years and PC games are being released on the Xbox 360 at the same time.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

duct tape rejoice!

[GoldenPhoenix]

why did I buy a Wii?

Why buy a 360 or PS3 when you could get similar experiences on PS2 and Xbox? If anything Wii has brought more to the table with a unique control scheme THAT is the reason why you got it a Wii, it wasn't because of visuals but the controller itself which was FRESH and is still progressing.

I disagree.  There are only TWO games I have to get off the couch to play, Wii Sports, and Wario Ware.  The control scheme is still only a glimpse of greater things to come.

I wasn't quite referring to whether you can play on the couch or not. So far we have PES with a revolutionary control scheme that could be done nowhere else. We also have two FPS shooters that run circles around analog controls (MOH2 and MP3). A future Lightsaber Dual game and a multiplatform Star Wars game that is causing some people to question which version will be the best. EA is harnessing the Wiimote for Madden this year for new innovative things, same with Tiger Woods. Mario Galaxy provided a unique experience that balanced both traditional with Wiimote controls to create a new level of interaction. That is why many of us got a Wii beyond being just Nintendo fans and while it still has room to grow it is showing tremendous signs of turning into something far beyond the other two consoles when it comes to interaction.

[Jonnyboy117]

PES could be done on PC.  Just saying!

[NWR_Lindy]

I wasn't quite referring to whether you can play on the couch or not. So far we have PES with a revolutionary control scheme that could be done nowhere else. We also have two FPS shooters that run circles around analog controls (MOH2 and MP3).

The controls for PES are very good.  As for MP3, the controls are good as well but they certainly aren't leaps and bounds beyond analog controls.  Each control scheme has its ups and downs, frankly.  Analog controls aren't as "quick" as mouse pointer, but it's much easier to do 180's with them (to shoot enemies behind you) than on Wii.  I think that the MP3 control setup is fine for a first-person adventure like MP3, but in anything requiring split-second, accurate reactions in the thick of a firefight (like what you need for most first-person shooter multiplayer), I think they'd be a little unwieldy.  Looking up and looking down is kinda hard to control, for example.  We'll see in The Conduit, since it's a legit FPS.

And as for what I'm asking for, I'm asking for Wii games that don't look like GameCube games.  And no matter how much people hate on the 360 and PS3, those games look better because developers take advantage of newer hardware.  The Wii has newer hardware and I'm just not seeing that effort.

[NWR_insanolord]

As for MP3, the controls are good as well but they certainly aren't leaps and bounds beyond analog controls.  Each control scheme has its ups and downs, frankly.  Analog controls aren't as "quick" as mouse pointer, but it's much easier to do 180's with them (to shoot enemies behind you) than on Wii.  I think that the MP3 control setup is fine for a first-person adventure like MP3, but in anything requiring split-second, accurate reactions in the thick of a firefight (like what you need for most first-person shooter multiplayer), I think they'd be a little unwieldy.  Looking up and looking down is kinda hard to control, for example. 

All of these things are quite a bit better in Medal of Honor Heroes 2, especially if you tweak the settings right. Hopefully The Conduit will have the same controls, but this time with a single player campaign that isn't horrible.

[GoldenPhoenix]

PES could be done on PC.  Just saying!

We are talking about console gaming. If we want to jump to the PC it blows everything else out of the water besides motion controls because you can also plug in control pads as well. Also most FPS on 360 and PS3 are built around the two analog sticks because they are not that good for pinpoint accurate controls, though to be fair it is getting better, but then again it is still the most awkward and horrendous way to play a FPS. With the Wii Remote you can point and shoot, heck the Wii is the first platform that you can have an on rails shooter without an extra peripheral. In regards to PES I would think it would be cumbersome at best to control two players on a mouse/keyboard setup.

It is kind of funny though that after 10 years or so, even with the evolution of FPS controls on consoles that the Wii Remote is already surpassing many aspects of it in 1.5 years. Conduit will be a perfect testing ground as to whether the Wii Remote can be the control method of choice for the FPS genre. All I can say now is that I will not touch a 360 or PS3 multiplatform FPS if it is also on Wii.

[D_Average]

why did I buy a Wii?

Why buy a 360 or PS3 when you could get similar experiences on PS2 and Xbox? If anything Wii has brought more to the table with a unique control scheme THAT is the reason why you got it a Wii, it wasn't because of visuals but the controller itself which was FRESH and is still progressing.

I disagree.  There are only TWO games I have to get off the couch to play, Wii Sports, and Wario Ware.  The control scheme is still only a glimpse of greater things to come.

I wasn't quite referring to whether you can play on the couch or not. So far we have PES with a revolutionary control scheme that could be done nowhere else. We also have two FPS shooters that run circles around analog controls (MOH2 and MP3). A future Lightsaber Dual game and a multiplatform Star Wars game that is causing some people to question which version will be the best. EA is harnessing the Wiimote for Madden this year for new innovative things, same with Tiger Woods. Mario Galaxy provided a unique experience that balanced both traditional with Wiimote controls to create a new level of interaction. That is why many of us got a Wii beyond being just Nintendo fans and while it still has room to grow it is showing tremendous signs of turning into something far beyond the other two consoles when it comes to interaction.

To each his own I suppose.  In my opinion though, the Wii is only a great success in revolutionizing the gaming market, as far as revolutionizing control schemes there is a lot to be desired.  I was one of the many who quit Nintendo gaming after the N64, and was then suckered back in via Wii Sports.  I didn't think Wii Sports was amazing, but I took it as a small example of greater things to come.  Well....two years later, I'm still waiting.  Perhaps Tiger 09 can alleviate some of that disappointment....then again, Nintendo didn't let them in on their secret "motion plus" technology....guess I'll have to wait till 2010.

[NWR_Lindy]

We are talking about console gaming. If we want to jump to the PC it blows everything else out of the water besides motion controls because you can also plug in control pads as well. Also most FPS on 360 and PS3 are built around the two analog sticks because they are not that good for pinpoint accurate controls, though to be fair it is getting better, but then again it is still the most awkward and horrendous way to play a FPS. With the Wii Remote you can point and shoot, heck the Wii is the first platform that you can have an on rails shooter without an extra peripheral. In regards to PES I would think it would be cumbersome at best to control two players on a mouse/keyboard setup.

GP and I are forever destined to butt heads on the topic of first-person shooters.

GP, you constantly rail on how analog control for first-person shooters is terrible.  My God, the way you describe it, you'd think it renders an FPS nigh unplayable.  In reality, they aren't as accurate as a mouse, but what is?  The controls for every console FPS I've played have been great.  Even Unreal Tournament III, a PC port to PS3, is awesome with analog controls.  Analog control is excellent, and a mouse pointer is even better.  It's not "Mouse control is amazing, analog control is totally ass [i.e. awkward and horrendous]" as you claim.  It's simply not true on any level.

It is kind of funny though that after 10 years or so, even with the evolution of FPS controls on consoles that the Wii Remote is already surpassing many aspects of it in 1.5 years. Conduit will be a perfect testing ground as to whether the Wii Remote can be the control method of choice for the FPS genre.

If the Wii controls were that great, why are virtually no FPS games being made for the system?  Who cares about a new control scheme if there are no games to use it with.  Wii controls would be much more relevant on a platform that developers actually, you know, make FPS games for.  PC, 360, PS3, whatever - put the Wii controls on those systems, and NOW we're talking.

The Wii's controls are a neat sideshow that's pretty much irrelevant to the rest of the FPS genre, because they're on a system that's ignored by the genre altogether thanks to the Wii's effectively last-gen graphics.  No cost-consicous FPS developer (i.e. anybody outside of EA and Activision) is going to risk spending money to create a graphics engine on PC and then dumb it down to Wii visuals.  It's not worth their time and money to do so.  They can instead port it pretty much directly to 360/PS3 without compromising any of the experience they've aimed for on PC, and it's not like it would sell like gangbusters on the Wii anyways.  Sad but true.

As much as we'd both like The Conduit to sell 2 million copies, I'll bet that it has a hard time eclipsing 500,000.  If it wants a shot at a million it had better get 9.5's across the board and generate a ton of buzz off of marketing.

All I can say now is that I will not touch a 360 or PS3 multiplatform FPS if it is also on Wii.

Then you'll get what you pay for.

[ShyGuy]

I dislike dual analog for FPS as much you dislike Nintendo.

[GoldenPhoenix]

You know, I read these posts and I get sick to my stomach. Dual analog controls are nothing more than a work around to far superior mouse controls, it still is horrendous in comparison. Just thinking about the logistics of it should leave no question as to how sloppy it is. Aiming by twirling a control stick? Yikes.

Regardless Lindy, you constantly talk about Wii being inferior when PC makes FPS on consoles look like crap, yes CRAP any "serious" game would get the PC version (See what I did there). Though I do sympathize with the fact that you talked yourself into thinking how amazing they are.

Now why aren't FPS shooters made on Wii? Oh gee, it must be the controller right? Do you seriously believe that? The reason is that few companies are willing to take the risk, they'd rather spew there generic FPS garbage on 360/PS3 because they know the crowd either doesn't know any better, or that they are willing to accept a poor man's version of a genre that has surpassed it elsewhere not only in controls but innovation as well. If it wasn't for a game like Mirror's Edge the FPS genre would still be a sea of the same. Halo, Unreal Tournament, Resistance, Frontlines, Medal of Honor, and on and on. People must truly be disparate because even when the plat former craze was around I got sick of the majority after a generation.

Tell me Lindy, how many 3rd party games on Wii have had a solid marketing campaign behind it? Red Steel? I think that about covers it when it comes to the more traditional games. Perhaps 3rd party games would do better, if you know, the company actually did something other than release it to die.

It is kind of funny when I step back, the disdain tree reaches even above you when it comes to PC gaming. You disdain the Wii and in turm those that enjoy the Wii, yet at the same time PC gamers have the same for the games you enjoy. Xbox 360/PS3 will be archaic in a year or two, so you'll be sitting in visually downgraded games, and then what are you going to do? You seem to care so much about visuals. Thankfully I do not have that problem, because I appreciate more than the visuals of the game and do NOT justify my purchases based off them.

Now is this all a bit condescending? I hope so! That was my intention because I feel that you've sadly slipped into that mode from time to time, and you need a taste of some exaggerated medicine. You already were exaggerating my comments like "OMG Conduit is going to be the next coming" or "You can't play FPS on consoles" so I thought I'd do it for you! Heck you even did it yourself by saying how great analog controls were, then again I guess it depends on your standards!

It is too bad your gaming tastes are so limited because you could really find much more enjoyment in your gaming. Bang, bang, look at the pretty graphics is obviously what you seem to be limiting yourself to. Some of us actually enjoy some variety in addition to that stuff. While you’re shooting away at generic hordes of aliens in Resistance 2, I will be experiencing the wonders of Spore, mixed with a little bit of Viva Pinata, and top it off with a stroll through my town in Animal Crossing. Heck I may even be exploring the dark hallways with nothing but a camera at my side, or better yet experiencing life through the perspective of an arachnid. Maybe I'll also blow up some aliens (or nazis) right after playing a great trivia game with my family, or better yet....wait for it...playing in a band with my loved ones. Perhaps to top it off I will be playing a genre that is almost extinct on any system, a 2D Platformer, and finally topped off by a light saber duel that cannot be done on the other consoles.

Yeah that makes me feel all fuzzy inside, too bad you will not be apart of that. You’ll be busy shooting stuff and over and over again with no end in sight on a system that is already being surpassed by the PC. I mean how could you ever enjoy games whose visuals have been downgraded for your system?

I still love you Lindy but sometimes I think you go a bit overboard with your newly acquired PS3 love and Wii hatred