Topic: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?

[Adrock]

Around here it's like Wii doesn't even exist, everyone has a 360 and wants a PS3 and talks trash on Wii all day long, so going by my own experiences Wii is a worse dud than GC, and I don't buy that one bit. Not saying your wrong just saying things are different in every town I am sure.

Well, of course things are different in every town, but the degree of which is what I'm pointing out. Just looking at store shelves or even a comprehensive list of Wii games should tip anyone off as to what kinds of games there are more of on the Wii. There's a reason the Wii has so many mini-game collections. People are buying them and who do you think the vast majority of those people are? All of those people can be Kairon........

And dude, you used to spend over $200 a week on games? Jeez, I just got a full-time job in addition to working part time at the video store and I still don't think I make enough money to spend anywhere near that much on gaming on a weekly basis.

[animecyberrat]

I worked my ass off and did a lot of business on the side. Plus I lived in a 2 bedroom apartment with my sister and her roommate so we split the bills three ways.

[IceCold]

Also, I don't buy the whole "build them up to be more hardcore gamers" thing. Sounds like BS to me. New players aren't "graduating" to more "hardcore" games like Super Mario Galaxy. Gamers are buy games like Super Mario Galaxy. The people who were (re)introduced to gaming through Wii Sports buy crap like Carnival Games to keep playing games that don't require much or any button imput.

Oh yeah? Then how come when WiiFit came out and expanded the Wii userbase in Japan, Super Mario Galaxy's sales got a HUGE boost? The same thing happened with Nintendogs and the DS - traditional games all sold better because of nongames.

[IceCold]

And also rat, I will never respect your opinions if you don't buy Mario Galaxy.

[animecyberrat]

It is on my list of games to get I assure you.

[Chozo Ghost]

I love the SNES controller.  It's the absolute ideal digital controller design.  Damn near any game that only requires digital input works perfectly on it.  But even then it's more of an evolutionary design than a revolutionary one.  The NES controller is largely hidden in the SNES design.  It takes the NES design and adds to it.  The SNES design is also largely hidden in the N64 design.  At this point Nintendo was always building.  It's funny that they didn't have backwards compatibility back then because their controllers always were so compatible with the last generation.

BTW, has anyone else thought the Wii's classic controller is imitating the style of the SNES controller? I don't own a classic controller myself yet, but I am anxious to get one and see how similar it feels to the old SNES style. It just might be that the Wii's classic controller is everything any traditional controller ever ought to be.

[that Baby guy]

The classic controller, I believed, was an attempt to mix the SNES controller with the Gamecube controller, and in my opinion, it ended up worse than either.  That's just me, though.  I can certainly see how you can favor the classic controller.  It's a matter of taste, really.

[KDR_11k]

Adrock: The minus button made sense IMO, you'd have needed a mad number of buttons otherwise that would just get in the way or be hard to find blindly. You've got a cursor so why not use it to select something? The huge "buttons" make it easy to pull off quickly. The missile on the dpad was strange but not a control problem. I was more surprised to find that there weren't other weapons that used the other dpad directions.

Splitting the A button into four small buttons would be really confusing, it'd give no visual anchor for which one is the "ok" button, four buttons are harder to hit properly when you aren't looking and you'd lose the pinch gesture used for grabbing.

[Adrock]

To each his own, I guess. I would've preferred that they just let me press the minus button to scroll through the different visors like in Super Metroid where you scroll through the missles, X-ray visor etc. And I just hate when anything is mapped to the D-pad (for games that use the nunchuck too). It's just not comfortable.

Splitting the A button into four small buttons would be really confusing, it'd give no visual anchor for which one is the "ok" button, four buttons are harder to hit properly when you aren't looking and you'd lose the pinch gesture used for grabbing.

Tell that to all the expanded market DS owners out there. If someone can operate a standard TV or DVD remote, they should have no problem dealing with 2-3 extra buttons. I don't want to hear this confusion crap. There are ways to make it easier for people if in fact they need to be. Convex/concave buttons (like the SNES), different shaped/sized buttons (like Gamecube, but not as ugly) and so on.

[Nick DiMola]

If someone can operate a standard TV or DVD remote, they should have no problem dealing with 2-3 extra buttons. I don't want to hear this confusion crap.

There is the hole in your logic, most people CAN'T operate a standard TV or DVD remote. They understand power on/off button, channel up/down, and volume up/down buttons ... and that's IT. Throw anything extraneous at them and forget it, they will struggle. I have seen it more times than I can count. Nintendo wanted to pull in this same demographic, and to do that they needed a controller that doesn't even look intimidating. Give developers more buttons and they WILL use them even if they could think of a way to simplify the controls without simplifying the gameplay.

[Kairon]

If someone can operate a standard TV or DVD remote, they should have no problem dealing with 2-3 extra buttons. I don't want to hear this confusion crap.

There is the hole in your logic, most people CAN'T operate a standard TV or DVD remote. They understand power on/off button, channel up/down, and volume up/down buttons ... and that's IT. Throw anything extraneous at them and forget it, they will struggle. I have seen it more times than I can count. Nintendo wanted to pull in this same demographic, and to do that they needed a controller that doesn't even look intimidating. Give developers more buttons and they WILL use them even if they could think of a way to simplify the controls without simplifying the gameplay.

QFT. Also, STT.

[DAaaMan64]

I'M INTIMIDATED RITE NOW

[IceCold]

Adrock, with the DS most games that use the touchscreen extensively don't use the buttons. When the Wii first came out, I had the idea to put the D-Pad on the bottom and have four buttons at the top. But whoever said it before is right; trying to figure out button combinations while using motion control is a terrible idea. And the Wii remote + nunchuck is quite adequate for most games out there.. except for niche ones like 2D fighters, which can use the classic controller.

If you look at Wii remote prototypes from Nintendo, you'll see that they also considered using more buttons, but then decided to stick with only an A button. And it was the right choice.

[vudu]

You goons should be out buying and playing the pants off Okami... >=|

I'm sure Bill and/or Infernal have a few of these pics.  Stevey, too!

[Adrock]

There is the hole in your logic, most people CAN'T operate a standard TV or DVD remote. They understand power on/off button, channel up/down, and volume up/down buttons ... and that's IT.

That's 5 buttons (and 6 if you consider that they'd have to know or at least, figure out, what TV/Video does to even play videogames). How is it that with the hundreds of remote controls out there, people, who by your own admission only understand 5 buttons, couldn't figure out a Wii Remote with 2-3 more buttons?

Nintendo wanted to pull in this same demographic, and to do that they needed a controller that doesn't even look intimidating. Give developers more buttons and they WILL use them even if they could think of a way to simplify the controls without simplifying the gameplay.

Um... ok. So, tell me, why does the DS not look intimidating when it has more buttons, but the Wii remote does? Why do some developers not use all the buttons on DS, even if they can?

And the Wii remote + nunchuck is quite adequate for most games out there...

Developers on the Wii have no choice but to make due with that they have. It's not like adding 2-3 buttons makes the Wii remote and nunchuck inadequate somehow. And the point is to get rid of the classic controller.

[Nick DiMola]

The DS does looks intimidating I'm sure. If you were to poll the demographic, I would also bet that the majority of it is different than the Wii's. Games that do appeal to the same demographic are advertised with noone even touching the buttons, just drawing on the screen, and most people I know aren't intimidated by writing.

As far as not understanding more buttons goes, it's easy to explain that one. People aren't interested in learning more buttons. It's not that they couldn't it's just that they don't care to. If they know going in, the most they have to worry about is pointing at a screen and pushing 2 buttons, they can make the time investment to learn it. If it was instead 5 or 6 buttons to worry about to control the game, I'd bet for most you have passed the threshold. My dad is the perfect example of this. The guy won't touch a game controller, but I had him playing Wii Sports last Christmas for hours. He is the type of guy who doesn't mess with the TV remote much because he doesn't care to learn what all the buttons do. If the Wii was any more complicated than it was, I guarantee he wouldn't have bothered. Once you start telling people push this button or that button and they aren't clearly obvious to the player without having to look at the controller, you have lost them.

My last question to you is, don't you think Nintendo did extensive market testing with this to see where the button threshold was? I'm going to take a wild guess and say that they did. The success they've had with the Wii is not accidental and I would guess that with the controller being the main attraction, they market tested the hell out of it to make sure it worked with their target demograpic perfectly.

[Adrock]

I really don't understand why everyone is just throwing around the same words and phrases that Nintendo does since they sling as much BS as any other company in the industry.

Nintendo contradicts its own philosophy with the DS. If buttons are so damn complicated, why did they add even more buttons from GBA to DS? And aren't two displays more complicated than one? If Nintendo was so concerned with intimidating people, why did they seemingly over-complicate their handheld? But, people aren't having trouble with the DS. They see the buttons, but if the software they're playing doesn't use it, then the buttons being there don't matter.

The problem some of you are having is that you're assuming that if there are more buttons on the Wii remote, it would automatically frustrate and intimidate casual and non-gamers. That's simply not true. It wouldn't matter if the Wii remote had more buttons if they had no/optional function in certain games. You can use the A button in Wii Tennis, but you don't have to. Furthermore, anything taken out of context can potentially drive people away. However, the Wii remote is always shown within the context of its function. No one sees the buttons right away. They see people playing and that's what piques people's interests.

[Nick DiMola]

I think the one part you are mistaken on is the demographic of the two systems. Nintendo built the Wii around the casual demographic, the DS however they made a grab for the Wii demographic with Brain Age, after the system came out. The Wii has a much older, more casual fan base than the DS, guaranteed. The DS demographic seems to consist more of children - teens and of course the more serious gaming demographic.

We could beat this to death, but it stands that the Wii has what it has in the way of buttons, and I have yet to see a game that NEEDED more. Between the Nunchuk and the Wiimote, there are enough buttons to play any game. Like I said earlier, if a game needs more buttons than what is there, chances are they could re-engineer the game to use less buttons while not changing the gameplay experience, Nintendo has proved this with their game time after time.

[Kairon]

Nintendo already did testing with multi-buttomed Wiimote prototypes. And let's not forget that the Wiimote is a gaming device, not a controld evice. There is no reaction component to changing TV channels, you don't lose the cable if you can't find a button. But the ergonomic strictures for a game device is much more stringent, which is why you see people already complaining about needing to use the D-Pad or minus buttons. More buttons simply wouldn't ergonomically work on the Wiimote, you'd have to be shifting your handhold, which is a big no-no if you want to attract the uninitiated to gaming. Just try walking around town in DQ Swords, ugh.

In fact, the Wiimote makes plenty of sense in it's current style. One button for your thumb, one button for your index finger, and just wave it around. Miyamoto's been moving towards this concept ever since the big GC button and his interest in one-button gaming as seen in Kirby's Air Ride. With the Wii, he may have finally gotten it right.

As for the DS, it's a chimaera. That's why it's got so much on it. But some of the most successful games on the DS, actually, completely ignore the buttons. Especially the ones that "expand the market," like Brain Age or Nintendogs. In fact, by holding the DS in the "book" position, Nintendo is basically hiding the buttons from casual players. Perhaps if Nintendo has a way of hiding the extra buttons on a Wiimote, that could've been a good solution. But the Wiimote as simplified-removable controller from larger shell idea was already considered by Nintendo, in fact, it was the first idea they considered and eventually moved away from. If I recall, actually, the idea for the nunchuck as a seperate control unit (hence causing the move away from unified controller with detachable wiimote) came from a western developer: Retro.

[BigJim]

I really don't understand why everyone is just throwing around the same words and phrases that Nintendo does since they sling as much BS as any other company in the industry.

It's a lot like Apple fans, no? There's an answer for everything.

[Adrock]

I have yet to see a game that NEEDED more. Between the Nunchuk and the Wiimote, there are enough buttons to play any game.

Well, since we've gone way off topic, I think this is a good oportunity to steer it back to the question posed in the beginning. We haven't seen a game that needed more buttons because 3rd parties just aren't releasing them on the Wii. They aren't taking the Wii seriously. You say that developers could re-engineer games to use less buttons, but why should they have to? We've seen developers choose not use all the buttons on the DS, so that's not the problem. This is another case of Nintendo marching to their own beat. Their "take it or leave it" attitude comes off as quite selfish and 3rd parties are responding by not supporting the Wii as well as we all know they could.

The DS has captured a very wide demographic. So, I ask, why can't the Wii do the same? Why is there a need to adhere to casual gamers? Why can't Nintendo adhere to both? There's really no good reason why they can't. The Wii is another result of Nintendo's backwards thinking. It's like they didn't know why the Gamecube wasn't more successful.

I have yet to hear an argument that reaches past Nintendo's own mantra. Nintendo fans have conditioned themselves to simply accepting whatever Nintendo tells/gives them. I understand how pointless this debate is. The Wii remote is what it is and that's not going to change. I guess I just can't understand blind devotion. Fans demand that 3rd parties fall in line and adhere to Nintendo. That's bullsh*t. I'm not saying the opposite should be true, but what happened to compromise? So yeah, just like Apple fans........

[GoldenPhoenix]

Um Nintendo does support both the casual and hardcore demographics, so right there the argument falls apart with games like Galaxy, MP3, BWii, and others. The Wii has a been a phenomena because of its diversity in gamers, and Nintendo has been doing their best to adhere to both. Third Parties HAVE NOT for the most part, and I blame the 3rd parties for that.

[BigJim]

Yikes, the fact that this is still even a debate 1.5 years into the cycle demonstrates those that "whined" back then had a point, much to apologists' dismay.

Nintendo technically does support both types of audiences. They actually decided to become a jack of all trades and master of none a couple years before Wii came out. So both audiences have customers that twiddle their thumbs until something they really want comes to market.

Substandard 3rd party support is not a new phenomena resulting from the Wii. Nintendo hasn't been strong on 3rd party support for 3 cycles. At some point one needs to stop blaming everybody except Nintendo for that decade-plus of skimpy performance. If Nintendo can't or chooses not to advance 3rd party relations in all that time, even with a market-leading console, then plenty of blame rests with them if they don't adequately fill the gaps.

[Nick DiMola]

I have yet to hear an argument that reaches past Nintendo's own mantra. Nintendo fans have conditioned themselves to simply accepting whatever Nintendo tells/gives them. I understand how pointless this debate is. The Wii remote is what it is and that's not going to change. I guess I just can't understand blind devotion. Fans demand that 3rd parties fall in line and adhere to Nintendo. That's bullsh*t. I'm not saying the opposite should be true, but what happened to compromise? So yeah, just like Apple fans........

I can already see where this thread is headed..... Saying someone is blindly devoted is inflammatory and unnecessary. Many of use are quite happy with what Nintendo has provided us with. As a person who owns a 360 as well I can openly and honestly state that what I see on the Wii even in the way of third parties is better ... for me. That doesn't mean I'm blindly devoted, it just means that I have particular tastes that seem to only be satisfied on the Wii. I'm sure this holds true for many other "blindly devoted fanboys" as well. They don't complain because they aren't unhappy.

[Kairon]

Substandard 3rd party support is not a new phenomena resulting from the Wii. Nintendo hasn't been strong on 3rd party support for 3 cycles. At some point one needs to stop blaming everybody except Nintendo for that decade-plus of skimpy performance. If Nintendo can't or chooses not to advance 3rd party relations in all that time, even with a market-leading console, then plenty of blame rests with them if they don't adequately fill the gaps.

I don't disagree. I'd just like to propose that Nintendo has made huge strides in third party support and breadth of game library with the Wii. We're still substandard, but Nintendo's actually managed to enact positive change in this field after their failed N64 and GC initiatives.

This is the first time I've ever been confident that Nintendo's making real progress on the "Third Party Question." And because of this progress, the Wii's library feels so much healthier and promising than the GC's. From RE:UC, NMH, and TC:NB (and Atlus games in general) to Strong Bad, We Cheer, and Deadly Creatures, I don't think we've had a wider choice of games without resorting to vaporware.