Topic: Was anyone else disappointed by E3 this year?

[Ian Sane]

This E3 had some really exciting games shown.  The only problem is the ones I'm interested in are ones I already knew about.  The biggest new game is Wii Fit, which is mainstream non-gamer stuff that I'm not interested in at all.  That plus E3 scaling back and Nintendo's constant emphasis on non-gamers makes for what I find to be a very dull E3.  E3 was disappointing but the full lineup of games shown at E3 was not.  There's good stuff coming out later this year.

If Nintendo isn't showing games that aren't due in the same year anymore then this is the transition year.  Next year will be more exciting because those will be games we haven't seen yet.  This switch required us to have a year where there was a lot of "repeats" from the year before.

I am disappointed in the third party support.  It still isn't really showing signs of improving.  What good is it for us if Nintendo becomes number one but still gets weak third party support?  Aside from wanting Nintendo to be successful enough to keep themselves running that was the whole reason that I ever wanted them to do better.

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
This E3 had some really exciting games shown.  The only problem is the ones I'm interested in are ones I already knew about.  The biggest new game is Wii Fit, which is mainstream non-gamer stuff that I'm not interested in at all.  That plus E3 scaling back and Nintendo's constant emphasis on non-gamers makes for what I find to be a very dull E3.  E3 was disappointing but the full lineup of games shown at E3 was not.  There's good stuff coming out later this year.

If Nintendo isn't showing games that aren't due in the same year anymore then this is the transition year.  Next year will be more exciting because those will be games we haven't seen yet.  This switch required us to have a year where there was a lot of "repeats" from the year before.

I am disappointed in the third party support.  It still isn't really showing signs of improving.  What good is it for us if Nintendo becomes number one but still gets weak third party support?  Aside from wanting Nintendo to be successful enough to keep themselves running that was the whole reason that I ever wanted them to do better.

Have you been under a rock? THird party support is rapidly growing, even Activision announced that a big chunk of its resources were being put towards the Wii. In regards to other 3rd parties, I seen a release list of scheduled games and it is staggering (I will try to find it).

[Kairon]

Howwever, we didn't see the sort of third-party blowout we were hoping for... in fact, it's almost as if Wii Fit, Viva Pinata Party, and Scene-It were the ONLY new games announced from anyone and everyone!

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: Kairon
Howwever, we didn't see the sort of third-party blowout we were hoping for... in fact, it's almost as if Wii Fit, Viva Pinata Party, and Scene-It were the ONLY new games announced from anyone and everyone!

Who was hoping for a 3rd party blow out? We didn't even know what to expect from E3!

[Kairon]

[Pittbboi]

From what I've read, the format of this year's E3 was a disaster. It was incredibly disorganized with major events scattered across Santa Monica instead of in one centralized location. For the news sources that had to keep up with everything. I can imagine just getting to these events being a huge chore.

As for Nintendo using E3 as a platform to showcase WiiFit. I have to say that wasn't a good move. I mean, at this point Nintendo could have showcased WiiFit at any event and gotten press coverage. E3 is a GAMER event (and I have a hard time even calling WiiFit a game), and even though it has been downsized it should remain that way. And let's be honest here, did E3 ever REALLY get that much non-gamer media coverage anyway? Yeah, it was the largest and, thus, more publicized event for a while, but even then there wasn't THAT much media coverage unless something like a new console was unveiled. And so far I haven't seen much more than tiny blurbs on Wiifit--and I've definitely seen more news bits on other things from this E3. Hell, I live in LA, 15 minutes from the Convention Center where E3 used to be, and the only non-gamers news I ever really saw for it was a little 2-minute blurb on the 10 o-clock news explaining why the downtown area seemed to be infested with nerds for a week. Non-gamer media coverage for Wii Fit has been minimal, from what I've noticed. So I can't really say Nintendo's focusing on Wii Fit this E3 was worth it.  

[UERD]

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From what I've read, the format of this year's E3 was a disaster. It was incredibly disorganized with major events scattered across Santa Monica instead of one centralized location. For the news sources that had to keep up with everything. I can imagine just getting to these events being a huge shore.

My feelings exactly.

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Non-gamer media coverage for Wii Fit has been minimal, from what I've noticed.

CNN and a bunch of other news media sites had stuff about E3, including Wii Fit. But if you're just talking about TV/newspapers, you're perfectly right.

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E3 is a GAMER event

E3 is now officially a craptacular event. Nintendo could have revealed Wii Fit in a stinky wooden outhouse somewhere in Alabama, and it would have had at least three-quarters of the impact (for a much lower price).

[Mashiro]

Well, I think there is one important factor we have to look at here:

While I agree that Nintendo still needs to show us the games which we all enjoy, I feel it is necessary to showcase more of the non-games and hark on things like the Wii Board to keep expanding its market to new gamers.

I think Nintendo's philosophy is as follows: Continue to capture the casual and "non-gamer" market which leads to increased market shares. With increased market shares comes more 3rd party interest. With more 3rd party interest comes more games. With more games comes more variety and with more variety comes the chance to get more of your "standard" gamers to purchase the system.

Let's be honest here, I would be willing to make a safe bet that 90% of the Nintendo fanbase has purchased a Wii. Those of us who love Nintendo games are ALREADY sold on the system.

Nintendo knows this and hey they are delivering the goods, MP3, SMG, SSBB are three top tier AA titles that just scream of polish and quality and surely all 3 games will have us drooling and loving our Wii more than ever before. Mario Kart is coming on '08 and while I would have liked to have seen more I know it's just a matter of time before we do and that's fine.

Again we're already sold on Nintendo, we're already sold on Wii. I'm not going to return my Wii because "Damn more cool new stuff wasn't shown that directly appeals to me...rawr!".

It is in this respect that Nintendo is incredibly smart in marketing more forcefully to the non-gamer casual market, they know they have their core audience, now they want to expand it and I think they are doing a fantastic job of doing so.

[Pittbboi]

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I think Nintendo's philosophy is as follows: Continue to capture the casual and "non-gamer" market which leads to increased market shares. With increased market shares comes more 3rd party interest. With more 3rd party interest comes more games. With more games comes more variety and with more variety comes the chance to get more of your "standard" gamers to purchase the system.

But I think the one major folly with this line of thinking is the idea that increased 3rd party support is going to be the type that gamers want. I mean, look at it this way: How many Wii Sports/Brain Age clones are there out there? Yeah, we're getting a lot of third party support due to the Wii's success, but 3rd parties aren't THAT blind. If they see that the biggest focus with the Wii is casual/non-gamer games, and if they see that that's the route Nintendo's taking with the console, THOSE are the kind of games that  3rd parties are going to support the Wii with. That's what the case is now. I mean, yeah I can't completely knock the Wii's 3rd party library, we are getting some decent 3rd party games in the future. But too much of the 3rd party efforts for gamers on the Wii come in the form of ports or half-efforts, meanwhile most if not ALL of third parties are getting ready to launch a big steaming pile of non-gamer crap at the Wii.

There's more to sales than just the numbers. 3rd parties aren't going to go "Wow, look at all the non-gamers Nintendo's bringing in with Wii Sports and Brain Age! Let's support the Wii with the next Resident Evil!" Hopefully, though, with Nintendo's heavy hitters coming soon as well as some major third party games like Zack and Wiki, No More Heroes, and the Crystal Bearers, the inevitable success of those games as well as the crash of the non-gamer sector (and, I mean, it's GOING to crash soon. You can only pump a system with so many mini-game clones before it bursts. Its exactly what happened in the 80s) will force 3rd parties to realize that there IS a market for GAMES on the Wii.  

[GoldenPhoenix]

RE4 on Wii surpassing expectations definately tells 3rd parties that traditional games don't belong. I guess you are right Pittbboi, Nintendo should fold up house right now, what they are doing is not working.

[Pittbboi]

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I guess you are right Pittbboi, Nintendo should fold up house right now, what they are doing is not work.

Oh come on! Where did I even SAY that!?

There IS a demand for actual games on the Wii. This much is OBVIOUS. What I'm saying is it's going to take the success of those games for 3rd parties to realize the Wii isn't just the mini-game machine. Hopefully that'll be the case by the end of this year. I have no doubt in my mind that all of the Gamer games scheduled for the Wii this year are going to sell BIG...and then ONCE AGAIN third parties are going to one big double take on the Wii and realize there's a market for AAA gamer games on the Wii and not just Games-for-Granny. What I'm also saying is that the Wii's numbers ALONE won't do that, because right now Nintendo has the world convinced that the Wii is being supported  by mostly casuals, which is part of the reason why 3rd parties are shoving all this clone crap at us. Numbers don't mean squat for us gamers if 3rd parties are convinced that those numbers mean casuals.

[Mashiro]

To correct you on a few points there Pittbboi, the reason the video game market crashed in the 80's was not caused by a market "pumped full of mini games". It was caused by a variety of factors. One of which was there were just too many consoles, another of which was the fact that cheaply made bargain bin games flooded the market and the "high quality" titles were just not coming out.

There was no quality control (something Nintendo made sure to have with the NES, which had it's own controversy in regards to standards and contracts...) anyway. ET comes to mind as a catalyst for these events, when released on the Atarti platform gamers got a game that had a 6 week creation cycle and symbolized the beginning of the end for that Video Game era which then resulted in a crash.

As GP says, RE:4 is supposedly proving to be doing better than expected and if E3 shows anything it is that the third party support is building. The casual market is in no danger of crashing and will thrive healthily along side Nintendo's more core gamer games. It'd be like saying "man how many times can they make a FPS!!! Zomg the FPS market is going to crash!". Seriously, if the gaming market can handle about oh a million games based on WWII, I am sure the gaming market can sustain mini game games.

3rd parties know there is a market for game games on the Wii, they do. It will just be a matter of time before the higher profile 3rd party games make its way to the Wii. Believe me, it's a changing point in the industry and Nintendo is climbing back to the top. Remember Playstation didn't start with the best line up of games in the world and look how that turned out.

Whenever there is a change in the market (especially when the change shifts focus to something new that hasn't been done before; see: wii control set up) it takes time for people to fully "get" what's going on but eventually it catches and the good games will come, and so will the bad, but hey that's what happens when you become market leader.  

[Ian Sane]

"Again we're already sold on Nintendo, we're already sold on Wii. I'm not going to return my Wii because 'Damn more cool new stuff wasn't shown that directly appeals to me...rawr!'"

I would actually interpret that as Nintendo taking their fans for granted.  Like we'll support them anyway so they don't have to try with us.  A good example of this is how most of their new IPs are non-games and most of their big "gamer games" are sequels.  They figure if they throw us Mario and Zelda we'll feel we HAVE to buy their console, even if the bulk of the lineup isn't for us.

"RE4 on Wii surpassing expectations definately tells 3rd parties that traditional games don't belong. I guess you are right Pittbboi, Nintendo should fold up house right now, what they are doing is not working."

Considering the Wii third party lineup is full of ports of last-gen games and spinoffs and blatant kids games and some just plain crappy games if anything a LAST GEN game like RE4 doing well just continues the trend of lousy third party support.  Remember how on the Cube third parties bailed because the userbase wouldn't buy crap?  Well now everything has flip-flopped and few third parties bother to make anything worth a damn because the userbase is so incredibly willing to buy crap they don't see the incentive to offer much else.  Why waste time making something good when the vast amount of casual gamers buying the console don't know better?

"E3 is a GAMER event (and I have a hard time even calling WiiFit a game), and even though it has been downsized it should remain that way. And let's be honest here, did E3 ever REALLY get that much non-gamer media coverage anyway?"

I think Nintendo wants to change that.  They want videogame industry conventions to get mainstream coverage.  I don't think Nintendo really wants to acknowledge a difference between "gamers" and "non-gamers".  I think they just want as many people buying the Wii and buying Wii product as possible.  They want everyone buying everything they release so the only time they're really going to acknowledge a difference is when gamers express concern over getting left out and they need to say something for damage control.  What do they accomplish by telling non-gamers that certain games aren't for them?  They want that new group to think EVERYTHING is for them.  Now maybe showing Wii Fit at E3 didn't get the level of mainstream attention they wanted.  Well this is the first E3 since the Wii was released and all this non-gamer stuff is still pretty new.  Nintendo still has to learn about what method to use to get mainstream coverage.

[Mashiro]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"Again we're already sold on Nintendo, we're already sold on Wii. I'm not going to return my Wii because 'Damn more cool new stuff wasn't shown that directly appeals to me...rawr!'"

I would actually interpret that as Nintendo taking their fans for granted.  Like we'll support them anyway so they don't have to try with us.  A good example of this is how most of their new IPs are non-games and most of their big "gamer games" are sequels.  They figure if they throw us Mario and Zelda we'll feel we HAVE to buy their console, even if the bulk of the lineup isn't for us.

Yeah because Gamecube had so many new IPs oh and so did N64 ::rolls eyes::.

Edit: and for argumentative sake, how many new IPs came about during the SNES era?

Your argument fails.  

[GoldenPhoenix]

Actually I think third parties are shoving us crap is because they missed the Wii train and are trying to get something out.

[Mashiro]

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Actually I think third parties are shoving us crap is because they missed the Wii train and are trying to get something out.

Agreed. When 99.9% of the third parties were thinking (from last E3) that "Oh man PS3 is going to own the market again" then release comes around and uh oh Wii is a smash hit, it doesn't really give developers a ton of time to shift gears and be like "Well we only had like 5 months but here's our quality Wii title!".

[Ian Sane]

"and for argumentative sake, how many new IPs came about during the SNES era?"

Pilotwings, F-Zero and Star Fox for starters plus some "one time" games like Stunt Race FX and a complete revival of Donkey Kong and the introduction of Mario Kart which is so huge and so influencial you could probably count it as a new IP.  The N64's switch to 3D made almost everything new and the Gamecube at least had Pikmin and some failed attempts like Eternal Darkness and a major revival in Metroid Prime.  But I complained that the Cube was too sequel happy years before the Wii was revealed.

It doesn't even matter because just the introduction of ANY new IP in an older generation is significant in comparision.  For new first party IPs on the Wii that are not non-gamer focused I currently count, um, zero which makes Pikmin alone look significant in comparison.  Maybe Super Mario Galaxy is different enough to count it a revival (probably not but it could be) but I'm seeing a lot of established formulas being presented as the "gamer games" while the fresh new ideas are non-gamer.

[Pittbboi]

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I would actually interpret that as Nintendo taking their fans for granted. Like we'll support them anyway so they don't have to try with us. A good example of this is how most of their new IPs are non-games and most of their big "gamer games" are sequels. They figure if they throw us Mario and Zelda we'll feel we HAVE to buy their console, even if the bulk of the lineup isn't for us.

Yeah, it's sad, but sometimes it seems like this year is going to be Nintendo's last hurrah for gamers. I mean, there has been a pretty vocal concern from a lot of gamers who feel like they're being left out of Nintendo's grand plan, and Nintendo knows this. This E3 would have been the perfect forum to put some of those fears to rest, and the fact that they chose to completely ignore that is not a good sign. I mean, yeah, this holiday season is going to be a great time to own a Wii for the gamer--nobody with a brain can deny that. I mean, these are games we've been waiting for for years, and two of them are almost a year late. But after this year, what's next? Nintendo was quiet about so much, and we can't speculate on EVERYTHING. Project HAMMER has pretty much been canceled and its resources shift to casual games, and Disaster: Day of Crisis got ZERO face time at all except for a Nintendo rep saying that development was going "nicely". These two games (along with Mario Kart) were supposed to be the Gamer IPs from Nintendo that kept us "satisfied" until Nintendo could, once again, recycle Mario and Zelda (and Metroid, in some form). Every day the gamer's place in Nintendo's 2008 seems to be more and more uncertain. It's becoming more and more obvious that Nintendo has been seduced by the prospect of non-gamer revenue and the majority of their resources just may be shifted to pleasing them, leaving us with the scraps and baseless speculation on what the next iteration of an aging Nintendo franchise is going to be like and how many years it's going to be before we get it.

Luckily, though, a handful of good gamer IPs from 3rd parties should be arriving next year to fill in what I imagine will be a pretty big gap. C'mon onnnn Crystal Bearers...

[Deguello]

Pilotwings is non-gamer focused.

Prove it isn't.

[Mashiro]

Very good point Deguello haha.

Also Ian, that's my point, sure there are SOME new IPs and that's over the entire consoles life span!

Wii is still young and is still VERY new in terms of how it plays compared to any previous console so I wouldn't say the sky is falling yet.

Edit: And just to clarify my point, Nintendo fans usually DO buy Nintendo consoles because of the classic IPs, any new IPs that become very successful (such as star fox, dkc, mario kart, etc) was just icing on the cake when they were first introduced.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

wtf 2008 is an area of "KUNSERN"???

WE STILL HAVE HALF OF 2007 TO TAKE CARE OF.

[BigJim]

It's become pretty clear that Iwata was correct and very insightful when he said that the Wii was a secondary system for hardcore players.

Old-school Nintendo fans do need to come to terms with it, as much as we hate it, but new-gen Nintendo fans also need to stop being dismissive about it and/or pretending it's not happening.

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: BigJim
It's become pretty clear that Iwata was correct and very insightful when he said that the Wii was a secondary system for hardcore players.

Old-school Nintendo fans do need to come to terms with it, as much as we hate it, but new-gen Nintendo fans also need to stop being dismissive about it and/or pretending it's not happening.

What in the heck is a new-gen Nintendo fan?  

[Mashiro]

I'm so confused as to how old school Nintendo fans have to come to terms with Wii being a secondary system for "hardcore" players. (Edit: this message was mainly meant for NON Nintendo fans).

If you were a "hardcore" gamer during the GC era, I can assure you, GC wasn't your main system. The same can be said during the N64 era when Sony took over the number 1 spot.

I think the sooner "old-school" Nintendo fans realize Nintendo is still making the same great games we've been getting for years WHILE expanding the market , the video game world will be a better place.

The nay sayers have no basis for their arguments. Nintendo arguably lived off of first party games for the past two console generations with a few second and third party games being worthwhile. It's been like this for a good long while now guys, Nintendo has always used their IPs to keep themselves afloat. Just because some new IPs aren't geared towards you specifically it doesn't make them BAD. The new non-gamer IPs just add to Nintendo's supply of already existing IPs.  

[Mario]

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I think the sooner "old-school" Nintendo fans realize Nintendo is still making the same great games we've been getting for years WHILE expanding the market , the world will be a better place.

Not really, the world will still be exactly the same because there are only about 6 of them in existance.