Author Topic: Xenosaga to be a Nintendo exclusive?  (Read 35744 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Arbok

  • Toho Mikado
  • Score: 5
    • View Profile
    • Toho Kingdom
RE:Xenosaga to be a Nintendo exclusive?
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2007, 04:24:51 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: capamerica
If you look at what happen with Rare you can see we can't go by who the copyrights are registered under. If that was the case according to copyrights filed Nintendo would have kept the Banjo-Kazooie series and Killer Instinct.

We're just going to have to wait till May 1st to see what happens.


Rare is a special case. Most often, that would not have happend, but Nintendo allowed them to keep the rights to their work, probably to keep a good relationship, except for Donkey Kong (naturally). Had they known the company would have turned around and walked to Microsoft, I'm sure the situation would have been different.

Anyway, I did some research by looking at the US Copyright Office for their record on Xenosaga, and it reads:

Registration Number:         PA-1-261-184
Title:         Xenosaga
Description:         Videogame.
Claimant:         Namco Bandai Games, Inc.
Created:         2006
Published:         8Apr06
Registered:         25Aug06
Previous Related Version:         2 episodes preexisting.

All entries for the series credit Namco. So unless Namco is really nice to the firm, I expect they don't get the series.
Toho Kingdom

@romero_tk

Offline capamerica

  • ^______^
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
RE: Xenosaga to be a Nintendo exclusive?
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2007, 04:42:55 AM »
I just said that you couldn't relie on who has what copywriten.
If you look at what happen with Rare you can see we can't go by who the copyrights are registered under. If that was the case according to copyrights filed Nintendo would have kept the Banjo-Kazooie series and Killer Instinct.

Hirohide Sugiura made sure that when he left Square he took the Xeno series with him, I don't see how Namco would be any different. Xenogear is still his, Square only hold the rights to publish it. Most likely the same thing will happen with Xenogear, Hirohide Sugiura will keep the series but Namco will be allowed to republish it.

Xenogear is still copyrighted under Square, But Hirohide Sugiura owns the series.
Seriously just because one company has the copyright registered under their name does not mean they own it.
Nintendo still holds the copyrights to Killer Instinct and Banjo-Kazooie, yet we do know for a fact that a new Banjo-Kazooie game is being made for the Xbox360.

We don't have a lot of examples of a 2nd party studio switching companies. So how can you say Rare is a 'special case', do you have any other examples of this happening? Its not like Monolith Soft was a division of Namco, they were their own company that just partnered up with Namco as a publisher.  
"Alright, you know what? I'm just giving in and looking at the breasts."
Crow ~ MST3K
<BR>-- I like my food like I like my women Chinese, Japaneses, Korean, Filipino, Vietnamese and Hot! --

Offline Louieturkey

  • Terrifying fantasies
  • Score: -3
    • View Profile
RE:Xenosaga to be a Nintendo exclusive?
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2007, 06:47:25 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Arbok
Rare is a special case. Most often, that would not have happend, but Nintendo allowed them to keep the rights to their work, probably to keep a good relationship, except for Donkey Kong (naturally). Had they known the company would have turned around and walked to Microsoft, I'm sure the situation would have been different.


Umm, Nintendo sold Rare to Microsoft for something like 300 million yen.  Nintendo did not get caught in suprise by Rare being bought by Microsoft.  It was a conscious choice by Nintendo.

That said, I believe that Square originally had the rights to Xenogears.  Hirohide Sugiura bought the rights to the series from Square but they did not allow him to take the full name, hence the series was renamed Xenosaga.

Offline Ceric

  • Once killed four Deviljho in one hunt
  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE: Xenosaga to be a Nintendo exclusive?
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2007, 07:11:25 AM »
Monolith will probably make it a point to get the Xeno Series.  Their was suppose to be 6 by my understanding reading this thread.  At that point nothing is stopping them from redoing the first 3 for a little capital to work on the 4th.
Need a Personal NonCitizen-Magical-Elf-Boy-Child-Game-Abused-King-Kratos-Play-Thing Crimm Unmaker-of-Worlds-Hunter-Of-Boxes
so, I don't have to edit as Much.

Offline Adrock

  • I’m just here for the zipline.
  • Score: 138
    • View Profile
RE:Xenosaga to be a Nintendo exclusive?
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2007, 08:45:34 AM »
I remember reading in an old EGM that Namco bought the rights to Xenogears at the request of Monolith (or rather the head of Monolith). If I wasn't so lazy, I'd look it up.

If that's the case and Namco doesn't plan on doing anything with the Xenosaga franchise (especially without Monolith), maybe they'd be willing to sell it to Nintendo though Nintendo likes sequels, I wonder if they'd be willing to spend so much on a series that caps at 6, especially when 3 have already been made. Xenosaga isn't even that popular... though I suppose RPG starved Nintendo fans would take anything.

Offline Ceric

  • Once killed four Deviljho in one hunt
  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE: Xenosaga to be a Nintendo exclusive?
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2007, 11:55:26 AM »
It's popular enough that I now about it even though I don't think I have ever seen the game in person.  You never know how introducing tweaked remakes might interest people who weren't in the original fold.
Need a Personal NonCitizen-Magical-Elf-Boy-Child-Game-Abused-King-Kratos-Play-Thing Crimm Unmaker-of-Worlds-Hunter-Of-Boxes
so, I don't have to edit as Much.

Offline Arbok

  • Toho Mikado
  • Score: 5
    • View Profile
    • Toho Kingdom
RE:Xenosaga to be a Nintendo exclusive?
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2007, 01:41:46 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Louieturkey
Umm, Nintendo sold Rare to Microsoft for something like 300 million yen.


Incorrect:

Quote

"We sold our position back to Rare and then they sold the entire company to Microsoft," said George Harrison, senior vice president of marketing and corporate communications for Nintendo of America.

Microsoft, which has not announced the deal, refused to comment. Industry analysts estimate the price of the deal was likely between $400 million and $500 million dollars.


http://money.cnn.com/2002/09/20/news/deals/rare/index.htm
Toho Kingdom

@romero_tk

Offline Louieturkey

  • Terrifying fantasies
  • Score: -3
    • View Profile
RE: Xenosaga to be a Nintendo exclusive?
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2007, 05:07:08 PM »
What the heck does position mean in this context?
So you're saying they sold Rare to Rare?

Offline Arbok

  • Toho Mikado
  • Score: 5
    • View Profile
    • Toho Kingdom
RE:Xenosaga to be a Nintendo exclusive?
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2007, 05:34:23 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Louieturkey
What the heck does position mean in this context?
So you're saying they sold Rare to Rare?


....yes.

It's called owning stock in a company. A firm can choose, if they want, to buy back their own stock (called a "share repurchase"), as Nintendo has in the past. In this case, Nintendo sold back their 49% share of stock to Rare, and then Rare sold it all off to Microsoft.
Toho Kingdom

@romero_tk

Offline Kairon

  • T_T
  • NWR Staff Pro
  • Score: 48
    • View Profile
RE: Xenosaga to be a Nintendo exclusive?
« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2007, 06:32:11 PM »
Well, technically, didn't Rare offer to sell ALL the rest of stock to Nintendo? And Nintendo declined, then sold their stake? Then Rare offered to sell the whole lot to MS?

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Carmine Red, Associate Editor

A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
The sun, for sorrow, will not show his head:
Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Sega and her Mashiro.

Offline Arbok

  • Toho Mikado
  • Score: 5
    • View Profile
    • Toho Kingdom
RE:Xenosaga to be a Nintendo exclusive?
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2007, 07:06:54 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
Well, technically, didn't Rare offer to sell ALL the rest of stock to Nintendo? And Nintendo declined, then sold their stake? Then Rare offered to sell the whole lot to MS?


Yep, that's exactly right. The article I posted earlier mentioned this as well:

Quote

Nintendo, which declined to discuss the sale price of its share of Rare, had an option to purchase the rest of the developer last fall, but decided against it, believing that the price was too high.
Toho Kingdom

@romero_tk

Offline that Baby guy

  • He's a real Ei-Ei-Poo!
  • Score: 379
    • View Profile
RE: Xenosaga to be a Nintendo exclusive?
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2007, 07:42:28 PM »
I think Kairon is the most accurate about this, but I'm not certain.  My brain feels fried right now.  For some reason, I thought that Nintendo wound up with about 60-70% of the Rare's stock, which they bought after their initial investment, but I'm really not sure of it.  I really haven't put much thought on the subject until now, but I recall that Nintendo basically sold their stake for $300 million.

Looking back, it seemed like Rare had wanted the chance to develop for other systems, especially after that e-Christmas card they sent out, which had an Xbox-like decorated box, along with others I can't specifically recall details about.  My guess is that they had been in talks with Nintendo about being bought up entirely for some time, but also in talks with Microsoft at the same time about selling the remaining stake of themselves to MS.  My guess is that Nintendo wanted to keep the amount of shares they owned, but Rare, perhaps exclusively under Stamper bros. influence here, probably wanted to be free from company influence or become a second party, seeing either direction as a more profitable path than the one they were on then.

Eventually, Nintendo probably became frustrated with both Rare's work and their attitude, so they just decided to drop the company.  The Stamper bros. quickly bought Nintendo's shares back, and odds are, told Microsoft that Rare could be MS's entirely, odds are, leaving MS with a short deadline.  Due to this deadline and just time delay issues that seem to be common practice with stock, the act of Nintendo selling Rare its own stock, and Microsoft purchasing all of Rare probably happened so close together that the stories blended together, and between the shock and the two console makers involved, the story didn't get delved into too far.

Up to this point, pretty much everything I've said has been speculation, and pretty much irrelevant to Monolith Soft.  Now for the stuff that applies to Xenosaga and Baten Kaitos.

Of course, Nintendo was the publisher of all of Rare's titles while Rare was under the influence of Nintendo.  That's why Banjo Kazooie and the rest won't be going to either the Virtual Console nor Xbox Live Arcade anytime soon without some sort of agreement.  See, Nintendo is the only company with the right to print new copies of these games.  However, the contents of these games belong to Rare, and by extension, Microsoft.  It leaves them at a stalemate, as neither company can do anything with the games published by Nintendo without both companies approval.  Conker's Bad Fur Day was not published by Nintendo, which is the reason why it could be remade and released on the Xbox.

The same will apply to Xenosaga and Baten Kaitos.  With Xenosaga, Episode One was published by Namco, Ep. 2 was published by Namco in North America and Japan, but published by SCEE in Europe, and Ep. 3 was published by Namco Bandai.  Now, considering Namco and Nintendo are not enemies, it is possible that Namco will either publish future editions of these three games exclusively for the Wii and/or other Nintendo platforms, or Namco might sell the publishing rights to Nintendo or Monolith soft.  Either one is likely to happen, though it seems like Namco isn't too enthusiastic about the series anymore, so odds are they'll sell the rights to publish it to Nintendo.  I skipped over mentioning who owns the Xenosaga property, because this is slightly less certain.  What I gather from Wikipedia is that Monolith Soft is the sole creator of the IP, though they were owned by Namco at the time.  If I understand things correctly, Monolith should retain the rights to the series, because they are identified as their own studio, and it even seems like Tetsuya may own or have owned part of the studio at some time.  I don't think the IP could transfer ownership without total Namco's ownership of the studio, which I don't believe ever happened.  That means that new entities in the Xenosaga series can still be created by Monolith soft.  I also have to question whether or not Europe will be able to see a re-release of the second episode, seeing as who the publisher is, but I imagine, given the circumstances of the game's publishing, SCEE's contract may have been limited.

As for Baten Kaitos, I have to say that this property is alarmingly more complicated.  The first game was published by Namco, so the same publishing issues take place as above.  However, as Kairon has said, the game is co-developed by tri-Crescendo.  Tri-Crescendo is a private studio, and isn't owned by Namco.  They're more widely known as the sound designers of Valkyrie Profile, which, FYI, Square Enix published (Just to show you they aren't owned by Namco).  Tri-Crescendo did work on both games, and though both games are credited mostly to Monolith Studios, I'd imagine that tri-Crescendo still owns part of the IP involved.  A scenario that could occur from this type of effort could be that Baten Kaitos could be reproduced with tri-Crescendo's materials redone differently, using none of the original code.  A better scenario is that tri-Crescendo could agree to work with Nintendo and Monolith Soft in all regards of remakes and the like.  The second Baten Kaitos game was actually published by Nintendo, so there are no problems in this regard, but still, tri-Crescendo did work on the game, so again, issues with remakes and the like may be subject to their approval.  Of course, let me say that tri-Crescendo seems to mostly do sound work, and it's possible that both games would be in fair-use in reproduction if all the music and sound effects were completely redone, which is possible.

Anyways, that's about it, most of my info is from Wikipedia, so you may want to take it with a grain of salt, but it sounds like it makes sense.  Tri-Crescendo used to be a part of tri-Ace, but apparently they are their own company now, I'm not too clear on all of the details.  Anyways, overall, I have to say that Namco will probably sell all the publishing rights of all four games they the rights of to Nintendo, and we'll probably see remakes of the games at some point in time, though I imagine it will be some time for any Baten Kaitos remake.  It seems too soon for that.  

Offline Kenology

  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE:Xenosaga to be a Nintendo exclusive?
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2007, 05:44:12 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: thatguy
As for Baten Kaitos, I have to say that this property is alarmingly more complicated.  The first game was published by Namco, so the same publishing issues take place as above.  However, as Kairon has said, the game is co-developed by tri-Crescendo.  Tri-Crescendo is a private studio, and isn't owned by Namco.  They're more widely known as the sound designers of Valkyrie Profile, which, FYI, Square Enix published (Just to show you they aren't owned by Namco).  Tri-Crescendo did work on both games, and though both games are credited mostly to Monolith Studios, I'd imagine that tri-Crescendo still owns part of the IP involved.  A scenario that could occur from this type of effort could be that Baten Kaitos could be reproduced with tri-Crescendo's materials redone differently, using none of the original code.  A better scenario is that tri-Crescendo could agree to work with Nintendo and Monolith Soft in all regards of remakes and the like.  The second Baten Kaitos game was actually published by Nintendo, so there are no problems in this regard, but still, tri-Crescendo did work on the game, so again, issues with remakes and the like may be subject to their approval.  Of course, let me say that tri-Crescendo seems to mostly do sound work, and it's possible that both games would be in fair-use in reproduction if all the music and sound effects were completely redone, which is possible.

Anyways, that's about it, most of my info is from Wikipedia, so you may want to take it with a grain of salt, but it sounds like it makes sense.  Tri-Crescendo used to be a part of tri-Ace, but apparently they are their own company now, I'm not too clear on all of the details.  Anyways, overall, I have to say that Namco will probably sell all the publishing rights of all four games they the rights of to Nintendo, and we'll probably see remakes of the games at some point in time, though I imagine it will be some time for any Baten Kaitos remake.  It seems too soon for that.


I think you may be right.  I never understood the relationship Tri-Crescendo had with Monolith.  If Tri-Crescendo was formerly Tri-Ace, it makes things a bit more clear.  I remember seeing the Tri-Ace logo on many Motoi Sakuraba soundtrack releases as well.  The connections still aren't all too clear though.  So, as you explained it above, if Tri-Crescendo doesn't want to have their part of the code ported, then we'd lose the soundtrack while the rest of the game would remain the same.  That would suck, 'cuase Sakuraba is the man.  But I don't think they'd mind very much.

Wii Friend Code: 6761 9883 7072 2526 - PM me your Wii Friend code and I'll add you. 
BWii: 429 612 278 949
MOH:H2 EA Nation username: Kenology
Endless Ocean: 1667-3301-0310
SSBB: 2964-8266-3925 - profile name = Ken

Offline Artimus

  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE: Xenosaga to be a Nintendo exclusive?
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2007, 08:21:23 AM »
Working on a game does not necessarily entitle you to its rights. Just ask TOSE. If Tri-Crescendo owns part of Baiten Kaitos then it would have rights, but working on it does not mean they own any part of it.

Offline Arbok

  • Toho Mikado
  • Score: 5
    • View Profile
    • Toho Kingdom
RE:Xenosaga to be a Nintendo exclusive?
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2007, 08:39:40 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Artimus
Working on a game does not necessarily entitle you to its rights. Just ask TOSE. If Tri-Crescendo owns part of Baiten Kaitos then it would have rights, but working on it does not mean they own any part of it.


Bingo, and glad someone brought it up. Also, rule of thumb: publishers get more of a take at the rights then the developers do. In that sense, the copyright on the official Baten Kaitos page reads:

Quote

TM & © 2003 2006 NAMCO BANDAI GAMES Inc. Baten Kaitos is a trademark of NAMCO BANDAI GAMES Inc.


So I would wager it's most likely in Namco's hands, with Tri-Crescendo not having any stake in it unless it was part of the agreement.
Toho Kingdom

@romero_tk

Offline capamerica

  • ^______^
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
RE: Xenosaga to be a Nintendo exclusive?
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2007, 09:04:38 AM »
I hate to keep bringing Rare up for this, but as I said they are the best example.
Web copyrights don't mean much. So don't Trademarks. If all trademarks were were accurate as to who owns the game then as I've said before Nintendo would still own Banjo-Kazooie and Killer Instinct.

From Dec 1998 to Jun 2002
http://www.Banjo-Kazooie.com
Banjo-Kazooie.com is an official Nintendo Web site. © 1998 Nintendo / Rare. Game by Rare.

From Jul 2002 to Aug 2004
http://www.Banjo-Kazooie.com (Redirected to a Nintendo.com page, Not Rare's website)
© 1997-2004 Nintendo. Games are property of their respective owners. Nintendo of America Inc. Headquarters are in Redmond, Washington

From Sept 2004 to Today
http://www.Banjo-Kazooie.com (Redirected Rare's website)
© 2006 MICROSOFT CORPORATION. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

As for whats up with Baten Kaitos and Tri-Crescendo I don't think Tri-Crescendo will have any clame over it. Tri-Crescendo was just a hired extra pair of hands. The game was a Monolith creations. I bet Tri-Crescendo was treated no differently then a Freelancer.  
"Alright, you know what? I'm just giving in and looking at the breasts."
Crow ~ MST3K
<BR>-- I like my food like I like my women Chinese, Japaneses, Korean, Filipino, Vietnamese and Hot! --

Offline that Baby guy

  • He's a real Ei-Ei-Poo!
  • Score: 379
    • View Profile
RE: Xenosaga to be a Nintendo exclusive?
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2007, 09:31:55 AM »
Probably, but I don't want to assume too much about something I know very little about.  For the record, tri-Crescendo was a part of tri-Ace, but they separated from them at some point in time.

Offline Arbok

  • Toho Mikado
  • Score: 5
    • View Profile
    • Toho Kingdom
RE:Xenosaga to be a Nintendo exclusive?
« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2007, 09:44:36 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: capamerica
I hate to keep bringing Rare up for this, but as I said they are the best example.
Web copyrights don't mean much. So don't Trademarks. If all trademarks were were accurate as to who owns the game then as I've said before Nintendo would still own Banjo-Kazooie and Killer Instinct.


Rare is an exception, not the norm. Nintendo could have easily taken those franchises with them, but decided against it. They wanted to have "good blood" with Rare, possibly hoping that they would continue to develop games for their systems, but they went over to Microsoft instead.
Toho Kingdom

@romero_tk

Offline capamerica

  • ^______^
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
RE: Xenosaga to be a Nintendo exclusive?
« Reply #43 on: April 29, 2007, 10:41:07 AM »
I still don't think Rare is an exception.
Show me a 2nd Party Studio that had its controlling stock moved from one company to another, and didn't keep their native franchises.

Monolith was its own Development Studio it wasn't some internal division. Monolith is not live Clover Studios or Team Ninja. Monolith is a completely separate company from Namco. Namco just happen to own a a majority share of stock in them, Just like how Nintendo owned a majority hold in Rare.  
"Alright, you know what? I'm just giving in and looking at the breasts."
Crow ~ MST3K
<BR>-- I like my food like I like my women Chinese, Japaneses, Korean, Filipino, Vietnamese and Hot! --

Offline Arbok

  • Toho Mikado
  • Score: 5
    • View Profile
    • Toho Kingdom
RE:Xenosaga to be a Nintendo exclusive?
« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2007, 10:58:13 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: capamerica
I still don't think Rare is an exception.
Show me a 2nd Party Studio that had its controlling stock moved from one company to another, and didn't keep their native franchises.


How many examples are there of this happening? Let's take another "second party" though, in this case Silicon Knights. According to records, Nintendo owns the Eternal Darkness franchise:

"Title:         [Eternal darkness : sanity's requiem]
Claimant:         Nintendo of America, Inc."

However, the catch is that:

"Author on © Application:         audiovisual material & computer program: Silicon Knights"

So they can't port the game, but they do own the series, which would apply to this example as well with Monolith (since they weren't the publisher of their own titles).
Toho Kingdom

@romero_tk

Offline that Baby guy

  • He's a real Ei-Ei-Poo!
  • Score: 379
    • View Profile
RE: Xenosaga to be a Nintendo exclusive?
« Reply #45 on: April 29, 2007, 11:28:50 AM »
Well, I think it is worth noting that Rare did publish some of their games, too.  That shows the company did have some independence.

Apparently, at the end of Eternal Darkness, the line, "ALL rights including the copyrights of Game, Scenario, Music, and Program reserved by NINTENDO" appears.  From what I've read here and elsewhere, that does indeed mean Nintendo owns the series.  Heck, Nintendo still owns a small portion of Silicon Knights, according to Wikipedia.  Wikipedia also says that an Eternal Darkness sequel is in production, citing the SK IGN blog.  I checked out the blog briefly, and didn't see anything about it.  So there's no telling what's going on with that, in regards to ownership, as far as I can tell.

Offline Arbok

  • Toho Mikado
  • Score: 5
    • View Profile
    • Toho Kingdom
RE:Xenosaga to be a Nintendo exclusive?
« Reply #46 on: April 29, 2007, 11:32:52 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: thatguy
Well, I think it is worth noting that Rare did publish some of their games, too.  That shows the company did have some independence.


Yep, they published Conker... and later updated and ported that to the Xbox as well.
Toho Kingdom

@romero_tk

Offline capamerica

  • ^______^
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
RE: Xenosaga to be a Nintendo exclusive?
« Reply #47 on: April 29, 2007, 11:34:32 AM »
please tell me your not trying to prove this by using the Trademark search...

Nintendo owns all of Eternal Darkness just look at what it says at the end of the credits:
"ALL rights including the copyrights of Game, Scenario, Music, and Program reserved by NINTENDO"

SK was just hired by Nintendo to make the game, You wouldn't say that SK owned the rights to Meta Gear would you?

A publisher only owns the rights to republish a existing game, they don't own the game its self. If publishers owned the games they published then EA would own Final Fantasy VII-IX
"Alright, you know what? I'm just giving in and looking at the breasts."
Crow ~ MST3K
<BR>-- I like my food like I like my women Chinese, Japaneses, Korean, Filipino, Vietnamese and Hot! --

Offline KDR_11k

  • boring person
  • Score: 28
    • View Profile
RE: Xenosaga to be a Nintendo exclusive?
« Reply #48 on: April 30, 2007, 01:10:32 AM »
Depends on how mucht he publisher can squeeze the dev, if it's a relatively unknown dev studio they'll be willing to give up all copyrights in exchange for a publisher.

Offline Ceric

  • Once killed four Deviljho in one hunt
  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE: Xenosaga to be a Nintendo exclusive?
« Reply #49 on: April 30, 2007, 05:36:34 AM »
But they aren't  unknown.
Need a Personal NonCitizen-Magical-Elf-Boy-Child-Game-Abused-King-Kratos-Play-Thing Crimm Unmaker-of-Worlds-Hunter-Of-Boxes
so, I don't have to edit as Much.