Topic: Twilight Princess Spoiler Discussion Thread (for those who have the game tomorrow)

[MarioAllStar]

I just finished the game--it took me about 45 hours. This is among the best games I have ever played. Although the fact that it did not save at the end really bugs me. Almost all of my progress in Hyrule Castle was not saved.

The ending was great. It left me with some questions (though this thread gave me some answers), but overall it was just really neat.

I still have a lot left to do if I want beat it 100%. This includes fishing, finding poes, finding heart containers, beating the STAR game some more, the Cave of Ordeals and some other misc. things. I honestly do not know if I will go back and finish it all simply because it seems more like work than fun.

I have some questions though. First off, Impaz said her people built the town she lived in. Didn't the Shiekah build Kakariko? But Kakariko already exists within the game. Secondly, I seem to remember Midna saying something to the effect of "See you later, Link" before she broke the mirror. If this is true, how can she ever see them again? (Maybe Zelda said this...)

 

[Shecky]

Quote
Originally posted by: Mario
I began to hate rupees as I progressed through the game, and did anyone else feel the five heart pieces had less of an impact? Sure there's more now but it's not as big a deal when you get one.

I'll give them credit for trying to introduce money sinks.  I actually liked how bombs had to be in chests or purchased.  I think they over inflated things a bit though on some of the other items.  There are a lot of 100 and 50 rupee chests, and any quest item can only cost 300 or less.

They increased it to 5 pieces per heart just so they could put a couple of pieces in each dungeon.  As a result you run into them more often.  The problem is that there isn't much else to reward the player with besides rupees and heart pieces.

[couchmonkey]

Oh man, just read like a jillion pages of text.  Finished around 65 hours - still a ton of heart pieces, one bottle, and 15 Poes to go.

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Originally posted by: MarioAllStar

I still have a lot left to do if I want beat it 100%. This includes fishing, finding poes, finding heart containers, beating the STAR game some more, the Cave of Ordeals and some other misc. things. I honestly do not know if I will go back and finish it all simply because it seems more like work than fun.

I have some questions though. First off, Impaz said her people built the town she lived in. Didn't the Shiekah build Kakariko? But Kakariko already exists within the game. Secondly, I seem to remember Midna saying something to the effect of "See you later, Link" before she broke the mirror. If this is true, how can she ever see them again? (Maybe Zelda said this...)

Possible answer:
I think Impaz's village is the REAL Kakariko from OOT, and Kakariko is a newer village.  I guess that might seem odd, but no worse than the way places and objects move over time in the Zelda series anyway...like the Temple of Time being in the woods in the south of Hyrule.

BIG IMPORTANT QUESTION:
Did anybody notice which of the Sages Ganon killed?  I think maybe it was forest, but I can't remember the symbols for sure.

Boss opinions:
Zant was TOTALLY AWESOME.  Favourite fight of the game.  I didn't think Ganon felt that tacked-on - it's just more like the olden days of gaming where they don't reveal the boss until you get to the end.  I agree that the story could have been clearer at times, though.
Ganon as a boss was totally cool and fun, but too easy.  I know a lot of people disagree on this - but I thought the Wind Waker Ganon battle was actually really tough - just as hard or harder than Ocarina.  Twighlight Ganon was not that hard...he's probably the toughest boss in the game, but not by a wide margin.  I love the light/dark contrast in the Ganon and Zelda vs. Link and Midna fight.


Ending opinion:
Like others here, I was surprised and a bit disappointed that it didn't explain what happened between the Ocarina and the Wind Waker. Especially after Midna made a reference to Link doing all this work and not getting any recognition (when he was in the twighlight, saving the children in Kakariko, I think).  I really thought he was going to wind up having to compromise and flood Hyrule in order to beat Ganon.  I still like the ending, but I think Nintendo was too scared to write an ending where Link sort of fails, and that's a shame.
I have to agree with those who don't like Midna destroying the mirror.  Frankly, I think Nintendo was just trying to make the scene more emotional without much regard for the story.  I agree with Bill that the motivation is supposed to be that Midna's in love with Link but it can't work out - but I'm just not convinced that Midna would do that.
Oh yeah, the Gerudos-are-Twili theory.  The Gerudos practiced magic, which is why the Twili were banished. The Gerudos are nowhere to be found - and they lived in the desert where the Mirror is.  The Mirror was used to cast out Hyrule's criminals, which the Gerudos were kind of considered. The Twili apparently had a leader that went "bad", which is true for Ganondorf. I don't know if Nintendo really intended the Twili to be the Gerudos, there is conflicting evidence that some others pointed out, but there's a lot of evidence in favour, too.  I bet Nintendo purposely meant it to be vague.


Final thoughts: I love the game and it's in contention with Wind Waker as my favourite in the series.  It fixed a lot of Wind Waker's faults, though it has a few of its own. I personally wish it had tied in with OOT/WW a little more (although I appreciate Nintendo's dedication to making each game's story complete on its own)

Looking forward, I can't wait for Phantom Hourglass, I hope it does something really important with the story - that ending scene with the Pirate ship heading off just BEGS for a great adventure. New Hyrule? I'm not all that psyched for a Twighlight Princess sequel, to be honest.  I'd actually like to see Nintendo explore a brand-new story later on in the timeline instead of more Ocarina "sequels".  Either that or a Majora's Mask-style side-story.

Phew, sorry for the huge post.    

[Mario]

Telma looks a lot like a Gerudo to me.

[Shecky]

Destroying the mirror is part of the plot line from about midway.  After the snow dungeon Midna comments on how it contains evil and NEEDS to be destroyed and that only the true leader could destroy it.  So at the end why would she NOT destroy it?!?

[Adrock]

Quote
couchmonkey wrote:
BIG IMPORTANT QUESTION:
Did anybody notice which of the Sages Ganon killed? I think maybe it was forest, but I can't remember the symbols for sure.

Answer:Ganondorf killed the Water Temple Sage

Quote
Boss opinions:
Zant was TOTALLY AWESOME. Favourite fight of the game. I didn't think Ganon felt that tacked-on - it's just more like the olden days of gaming where they don't reveal the boss until you get to the end. I agree that the story could have been clearer at times, though.

Zant seemed like fake Kefka (FFVI) to me. He was cool until he ended up being (literally) a clown. Nintendo dropped the ball on his character design. Anyway, my favorite boss was "Twilight Fossil: Stallord."

I agree, Ganondorf wasn't tacked on. He was just less of a character than he was in Wind Waker and I found it hard to take him seriously as the big villain of the game since there was no character development or explanation for most of what he did in the game. Really, a lot of the plot needed to be explained and that was its major downfall followed closely by Nintendo's reliance on the two worlds mechanic.

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Ending opinion:
Like others here, I was surprised and a bit disappointed that it didn't explain what happened between the Ocarina and the Wind Waker.

My thoughts exactly. I was waiting for it the whole game. At the end, I was thinking Link would jump into the portal, thus explaining why there was no hero before the flood. Twilight Princess, being the game it was, could fit anywhere in the timeline (even though there technically isn't really one to begin with).

My major problem with the ending was that it left too many questions unanswered. The Water Temple Sage was killed off, but the Sages don't do ANYTHING. Who the hell are they? Where did they come from (they don't seem like Saria and the others)? How did Ganondorf get out of the Sacred Realm? How did the sages capture him and why of all places would they chain him to the Twilight Realm portal? What's the deal with the City in the Sky legend? What happened to Ganondorf after Link stabs him? What happened to Hyrule Castle after it explodes? And so on...

The game was amazing though I felt certain aspects were lacking. The fighting system is significantly deeper. That's great, except you barely run into an enemy who requires any effort whatsoever. The art design ranged from excellent (i.e. Link, Imp Midna, Zelda, Ganondorf) to what-the-hell (i.e. Yeto, Yeta, Zant-sans-Helmet, Human Midna). The wolf transformation was cool in the beginning of the game... too bad, your skills don't evolve.

I also feel like Nintendo is still telling 16-bit stories. The plots of Zelda games in general haven't evolved much past "Ganondorf is at it again. Uh oh, spagetti-o..." Then, Link collects some sh*t, fights an easy final boss (or in Twilight Princess' case, 4 easy final bosses in a row) and everyone is all ginger peachy at the end. If Nintendo is going to attempt to tell deeper stories, the series needs voice acting. Link must remain mute, everyone else should not. Telling a story through text is simply outdated. Zelda games should never have 15 minute cut-scenes. My point is hearing Midna's brief gibberish talk then seeing her facial expression, then reading "ZANT!!!" doesn't draw me in. It takes me out of the game.

There are a ton of missed opportunities. The Lost Village and City in the Sky segments left a lot to be desired. I spent half the game wondering what this legend about the City in the Sky was only to find out they're a bunch of birds with creepy quasi-human faces. The game kind of just fizzled at Snowpeak for me. It felt so familiar, just like every other Zelda title.

[Mario]

Just like every other, NO. Majoras Mask, Wind Waker, Minish Cap are all COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

The story isn't that simple, use your imagination. Midna was in the game remember? Ginger peachy at the end? Did you even finish the game?

[Bill Aurion]

"If Nintendo is going to attempt to tell deeper stories, the series needs voice acting."

I stopped reading here...

[Caliban]

Quote
Originally posted by: Adrock
Telling a story through text is simply outdated.

You're going to have an angry mob of book readers wanting to whip your ass. Not me btw, oh wait I read manga, so I guess I'm one of them too.

[mantidor]

Quote
Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
"If Nintendo is going to attempt to tell deeper stories, the series needs voice acting."

I stopped reading here...

After being really impressed by Midna's delightful speeches I feel like beating with a stick anyone who suggests any kind of voice acting different from an unintelligible language like the one Midna used. It really started with the MM and certain sounds, it was refined in Wind Waker and it was made deeper in TP, the next Zelda will more than likely offer more extensive dialogues in this fashion for more NPCs, but a real language will never be used, and I couldn't be more glad, because that would suck.

[RiskyChris]

Voice acting? No.  Books make out fine.

It's fun to make voices  in your head based on the little snippets you hear from them (i.e. mailman!).

[Adrock]

Fine.

Allow me to rephrase. Telling a story in a videogame through text is outdated.

I like reading, but I don't play videogames to read. I paid $50 to play. The plots in Zelda games aren't especially engaging (insert flame here), but Nintendo is clearly trying to make them more so. That's why I'm sitting through five minute cutscenes which are often vague and not necessarily enlightening. Those cutscenes pull me away from actually playing the game. Something has to draw me back in. I think voice acting can bring life to a character. I don't want to read through a cutscene. That pulls me further away from playing. I know I don't have to read the text, but it's there and I can't skip the clip entirely even if I want to.

I'm not saying voice acting will make the plot better. Simply, I think, if done well, it can make the cutscenes more engaging which would draw me back into the game. Or perhaps Nintendo just needs better writers.

I suppose my main gripe is with the cutscene as a whole. It's not necessarily the lack of voice acting, as it is the presence of bulk text. In a videogame, I would prefer voice acting for reasons provided already. At the same time, I'd be more inclined to accept text in cutscenes if I was given less of it. For example, the scene in Ocarina of Time when Link leaves the forest for the first time is a powerful scene, one of the best in any videogame and it's done with a minimum of dialogue.

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Mario wrote:
Just like every other, NO. Majoras Mask, Wind Waker, Minish Cap are all COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

Every Zelda plays out exactly the same way. Disordering event --> Link collects artifacts from themed dungeons --> Fights final boss

Along the way he'll learn about some legend and possibly attain a powerful new sword, most likely the Master Sword.

Zelda games are predictable. It's the same structure every time. Predictability makes a game worse. It does NOT make a game bad.

Chill pills for everyone! Sorry, I found fault in your precious Zelda. You're all too busy flaming me to miss the part where I said the game was amazing. See, "amazing" is a positive adjective. Twilight Princess can be both flawed and a good game.    

[Caliban]

We know it is an amazing game, despite its flaws, but not having real voiceovers cannot count as a flaw.
We have always played Zelda more for the gameplay, it's true that adding plot elements to increase your determination for your journey is a necessity, and most certainly it would be nice if we could actually hear the drama that occurs in a Zelda game, however that won't happen until Miyamoto dies, and even after that I don't think there will be such change.
If anything I would choose the gibberish used for Midna as a method to transmit that drama, but text would still have to appear because we obviously can't understand the Hylian, Twilian, Zorian, or Gorian language.

[WindyMan]

Okay people, I just found something that has been driving me crazy for the past hour.

In my frustration in trying to get into Fado's house in Ordon (the door that's always locked), I stumbled across the location of some hidden rupees.  They are on top of Rusl's house (the one by the mouth of the town stream).  To see them, you need to climb to the top of the Mayor's house as a human, transform into a wolf and then howl next to the hawk grass up there.  The hawk will point you toward an impossible-to-get-to area.  Or is it?!?

Three things:

1) How the hell do you get on top of that house?
2) Once there, can you go anywhere else?
3) Perhaps it's a way to get inside Fado's house?

I spent well over an hour doing this (and I didn't even realize it) so if anyone wants to give it a crack, be my guest.

[Bill Aurion]

Maybe they are there just to piss you off?

[Mario]

There's a rupee behind the house too... you can sort of see it through the little cracks to the sides, and it looks like  there's vines there, so i'm guessing you have to find a way behind the house first then just climb up from there? There's nothing you can do in the house though to get through... maybe it was something that had to be done when you could get in there as the wolf.

[King of Twitch]

I agree with many points above. The flaws in the game are mostly about the style of storytelling. It was either too convoluted, or the cutscenes left you hanging, or points such as G.dorf's sudden appearance make you shake your head. Couldn't care less about voice acting but the lack of Twili and Oocco towns, and the bland Kakariko/"lost city" towns were disappointing; every boss' "health meter" seemed to be cut in half though they were each exciting and unique. On the other hand I loved just looking around appreciating the world, the dungeons were appropriately daunting but never frustrating, the horseback fighting was great, and the final boss was the best of all time. Oh yea, the new controls are icing on the cake. Can't wait to see how the next one will take advantage, from the ground up, of these newfangled motion controls.  

[mantidor]

I finally finished it, and I have a lot of things to do, but still I would have liked to have the will to wait until I got everything before entering that final dungeon, but I couldn't resist, however I'm intrigued about something item related on the wii version, did it use the remote for these? I mean:

The ball and chain for example, was the remote used with this item by waving it around your head a la rayman?, or the boomerang by pulling the controller and "throwing" it? or the dominion rod? they way Link used it it seemed a lot like playing baseball.

[Mario]

Don't think so, but I had the "pointer" turned off pretty much the whole game.

[Bill Aurion]

Nope...

Oh, and mystery about the rupees on and behind Rusl and Uli's house solved...Just use your boomerang...

[Crimm]

Okay, here's a question.  The chest outside of the south exit from Castle Town, how do you get to it?

[Bill Aurion]

Crimm: The one way deep down in that huge hole?  You use a certain item to get to it...  (Only after beating Dungeon 7)  

[Crimm]

Oh man...so much time burned.

Thanks.

[MarioAllStar]

What about the one that isn't in the deep hole? The one in the middle of the pond area...just sitting there.

[Bill Aurion]

Eh?  There is no pond directly south of Castle Town...Unless you mean the chest in South Hyrule under the bridge...Use the same item!