Topic: Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.

[GoldenPhoenix]

The only game I looked over with "glazed eyes" was Mario Kart: DD, in fact I PREFER both Wind waker and SMS over OOT along with SM64. So there!

[Ian Sane]

"Do you own Chibi Robo? Odama? Mario DDR? Battalion Wars? Did you buy Viewtiful Joe and RE4 when they were exclusive? Did you get Pikmin 2?"

Chibi Robo - No. Just didn't catch my interest. Average reviews.
Odama - No because reviews and impressions said it wasn't any good.
Mario DDR - Yep.
Battalion Wars - No. Average reviews.
Viewtiful Joe - Yep. I didn't really like it actually though I can see why others did.
Resident Evil 4 - No and I honestly don't know why I haven't played it yet.
Pikmin 2 - F*ck yeah. Best game on the Cube and one of the Nintendo's best ever.

I never said Nintendo chooses to make good games or bad ones but just that they choose if they make sequels or not. On the Cube they often chose to make a sequel or a Mario spinoff. That's the choice I'm talking about. They honestly didn't try too many new concepts out on the Cube and the "Who are you?" ad campaign makes it pretty obvious that they were franchise happy. I do agree though that at the very least the remote has inspired them to try new stuff out, even if I don't feel the controller was required to do that or is even a better design.

And the whole solution was weird to begin with. "We didn't sell enough Cubes. That's because our controller was too intimidating for non-gamers." Huh? How does that make any sense? Do they honestly think THAT was the problem? How are they ever going to improve if they're so utterly clueless about what the real problems were? Aside from online support (which is still goofy since they reportedly haven't given third parties info about it yet) they haven't really addressed the problems with the Cube. Instead they're just doing something weird and different and introducing some new problems like super expensive controllers, no HD support, inferior hardware specs, and an incredibly awful name.

I only felt optimistic about Nintendo's chances when the PS3 price was revealed.

[IceCold]

Quote
Any time people mention first party Wii or DS games that are "traditional" it's usually sequel, sequel, spin-off, sequel. Sometimes we get a new game but it's made by an unproven developer that used to make Olsen Twin games. Meanwhile the new first party franchises are stuff like Nintendogs, Brain Age, Electroplankton, and WiiSports. The new stuff is all aimed at non-gamers while all the "traditional" stuff is all sequels. Nintendo thinks that "hardcore" gamers just want the same old sh!t again and again. We DON'T. That stupid attitude is why "Who are you?" was a completely floparoo. Traditional gaming does not mean the same old sh!t again and again even if that's what Nintendo is trying to tell you and seemingly tries to demonstrate. Just because Nintendo's recent "traditional" offerings have been cookie cutter doesn't mean that ALL traditional games are or that Nintendo games even have to be. Nintendo has chosen to be stale because somewhere along the way they thought that all we're interested in are franchises.

Ian, as I mentioned before, your theory doesn't account for the fact that those traditional DS sequels have sold HUGE. Not to mention that, in Japan especially, it's the "non-games" which gave the DS such a large userbase, assuring that future games would sell well. Their strategy is really working out on the handheld..

Also, we ARE getting new "traditional" IPs on both the Wii and the DS. On Wii, Red Steel, HEROES, Project HAMMER, Disaster, Elebits, Wing Island, and Excite Truck, to name a few. And this doesn't even include some of the unnamed projects which are confirmed to be new concepts. Maybe you're not interested in any of those, but you can't deny that they're there.. The Wii has many more new IPs than the Cube had at this point in its cycle.

[Kairon]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
And the whole solution was weird to begin with. "We didn't sell enough Cubes. That's because our controller was too intimidating for non-gamers." Huh? How does that make any sense? Do they honestly think THAT was the problem? How are they ever going to improve if they're so utterly clueless about what the real problems were? Aside from online support (which is still goofy since they reportedly haven't given third parties info about it yet) they haven't really addressed the problems with the Cube. Instead they're just doing something weird and different and introducing some new problems like super expensive controllers, no HD support, inferior hardware specs, and an incredibly awful name.

I only felt optimistic about Nintendo's chances when the PS3 price was revealed.

Nintendo's thinking outside the box IanSane. Why fight for diminishing returns over the same consumers when you can gain a new market? Blue Ocean is an appealing strategy to sell more no matter how you look at it.

And you neglect to consider how hardcore online services, HD support, strong hardware specs, etc. are all factors that mean that the XBox sells at $400 ($300 version doesn't count because it ends up costing more to hardcore gamers) and MS is STILL selling them at a loss, so much so that they're trying to rejigger the tech NOT to lower the price to consumers, but to lower losses to THEMSELVES.

You wonder in amazement at the PS3 price. If Nintendo had done all those things that you wish they did, the GameCube 2 would be right up there at $400 or higher. Ian, you neglect to see how by following your advice, Microsoft has a console they're hemmorhaging money on for another 5 years and with which they may actually LOSE ground compared to the XBox and PS3 has a console that is ridiculously priced and ridiculously difficult to manufacture.

Nintendo's dodged a bullet.

But after all that, I still find it strange that you don't like the XBox 360. If I was a regular Hardcore gamer, the XBox 360 would be the perfect console for me (aside from hardware failures), what with GTA 4 coming out on it and excellent FPS, sports, and action titles on it and everything. Plus, while $600 is a ridiculous price, $400 is just fine for a hardcore gamer like me. I'd even appreciate MS' mandate that even XBLA games must be high-definition. MS really seems to have played this next-generation according to all your desires Ian... haven't they?

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[TerribleOne]

like it or not Ian makes valuable points.. he's simply noting visible problems in the nintendo camp which just rubs some the wrong way. just admit that nintendo was dry as hell when it came to makin new GOOD games.. only a small percentage of the millions who bought the cube fall into the nintendo fanboy category... the majority were gamers and by the proof of consoles bought it wasnt worthy enough. So i strongly believe that nintendo thought of a new way of gaming... THEN they thought of reasons to justify it... they created the remote and then started preachin the whole non-gamer crap or the buttons bein intimidatin... but of course they advertised it the other way around. unfortunately sum games require a classic controller and many buttons but its feared nintedo is discouraging this as much as possible

and i posted the developer question earlier because from a business aspect i dont understand why the system selling nintendo games are rare to find sequels for... mario gets whored but we get no mario 128... the most bought game for cube (smash bros.) comes out at the beginnin of the system's life and never drops a sequel... zelda got delayed like crazy... no pokemon rpg ((um duhh?)... no true starfox 64 sequel and the new I.P.'s were nonexisting... if miyamoto didnt create it... it didnt exist

[Nick DiMola]

Why is the general consensus that the Cube had terrible games? I LOVED my Gamecube, hell I have 73 Games. I just think people are so over dramatic about everything. Not only over dramatic but so damn negative. Strell and Kairon you guys have it right. The N64 had a lot more magic than the Gamecube because it had things we had never seen before. The Gamecube took those ideas and perfected them and made them prettier too, it just wasn't new, we had generally already played those games. I think the Wii is going to bring the same feeling of joy the N64 brought because it has a new experience similar to that of the N64.

Very few of us in these forums actually have picked up a Wii controller and experienced the systems. So for 2 seconds stop bitching and wait to see what happens. If Nintendo screws up again all of you whiners can try and find a new company that offers what you want out of a videogaming experience.

[Ian Sane]

"But after all that, I still find it strange that you don't like the XBox 360. If I was a regular Hardcore gamer, the XBox 360 would be the perfect console for me (aside from hardware failures), what with GTA 4 coming out on it and excellent FPS, sports, and action titles on it and everything. Plus, while $600 is a ridiculous price, $400 is just fine for a hardcore gamer like me. I'd even appreciate MS' mandate that even XBLA games must be high-definition. MS really seems to have played this next-generation according to all your desires Ian... haven't they?"

I personally don't care for the Xbox "brand" because it is very American centric and I'm not that interested in American games.  I strongly prefer Japanese games.  I'm not totally cool with the X360.  I don't like how they have two versions.  That just splits the userbase.  The wireless controllers, HD AV cable, network cable and headset should be optional and there should be just ONE version that works with all accessories.  Their backwards compatibility is a joke.  And while I don't like how Nintendo doesn't allow any HD support at all MS isn't doing much better by forcing it.  Devs should have the freedom to choose if they want to support HD or not.  The only thing you should be forced to do is have the game playable on normal TVs.  I think MS also released a console too soon.  They should have waited until 2006 to give the Xbox a full five year life cycle.

[RickPowers]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"But after all that, I still find it strange that you don't like the XBox 360. If I was a regular Hardcore gamer, the XBox 360 would be the perfect console for me (aside from hardware failures), what with GTA 4 coming out on it and excellent FPS, sports, and action titles on it and everything. Plus, while $600 is a ridiculous price, $400 is just fine for a hardcore gamer like me. I'd even appreciate MS' mandate that even XBLA games must be high-definition. MS really seems to have played this next-generation according to all your desires Ian... haven't they?"

I personally don't care for the Xbox "brand" because it is very American centric and I'm not that interested in American games.  I strongly prefer Japanese games.  I'm not totally cool with the X360.  I don't like how they have two versions.  That just splits the userbase.  The wireless controllers, HD AV cable, network cable and headset should be optional and there should be just ONE version that works with all accessories.  Their backwards compatibility is a joke.  And while I don't like how Nintendo doesn't allow any HD support at all MS isn't doing much better by forcing it.  Devs should have the freedom to choose if they want to support HD or not.  The only thing you should be forced to do is have the game playable on normal TVs.  I think MS also released a console too soon.  They should have waited until 2006 to give the Xbox a full five year life cycle.

Boy, I haven't gotten to argue with Ian in a while ... but here goes.

First, the two versions of the Xbox 360 in no way splits the userbase.  You are the only person who's even suggested such a thing.  Even if they get a Core, they'd still have to get a Memory Card, so it's not a storage issue, which is the only "real" difference between them (I can count on one hand the number of games that require the hard drive to run).  But even if it did, why would you care?  Are you criticizing the business decision as someone who has knowledge of that, or are you complaining as a gamer who doesn't know which to buy and wants the company to make his decisions for him?    And for the record, even the core version works with all accessories ... and I don't know why you suggested that it doesn't.  In fact, the Component cable included with the Core isn't just Component.  It has standard Composite as well.  That was a brilliant move, because even the "standard AV cable" is HD-Ready when you are.  As for the wireless controllers, wasn't it just a short time ago that we were telling Nintendo they should make the Wavebird standard?  This isn't a situation where Microsoft released a "standard" console and a cheaper crippled version like Sony is doing.  The "Premium" set is pretty much a "Value Pack", the Core system is the standard version.  Just like you said, the other accessories are all optional.

Nintendo is not disallowing HD support.  The console simply can't do it, and it was a conscious choice to focus on creating a similar experience for everyone, as well as keeping costs down.  Do I wish that they had been more forward-thinking?  Sure, but it is what it is, but don't couch your criticism by suggesting that Wii can do HD and Nintendo just won't let them (if you want to make that argument, talk about Online support).  Microsoft's forcing HD support is also a non-issue, since what they're doing it setting a standard (the same thing you argued for at the beginning of the post, to an extent), and by setting that standard, they can allow the Xbox 360 to automatically scale.  For the record, I've got an Xbox 360 and a standard-def TV, and it works wonderfully.  So again, are you complaining about Microsoft "forcing HD" from a developer's standpoint, or from a consumer confusion standpoint?  (In fact, from a business standpoint, I think standardizing Xbox 360 as an HD platform is what killed the PS3.  It forced Sony into a game of oneupsmanship in terms of feature set, and now their console is far too overpriced for the mass market.  Nintendo was wise to stay out of that particular slap-fight.)

As for Microsoft releasing the console too soon ... Microsoft got a one year head start, had a bunch of killer titles right off the bat, as well as a steady stream of titles since, and is generating boat-loads of money through Xbox Live Marketplace.  How did launching early HURT them?  Sure, sales suck in Japan, but you know what?  Microsoft probably won't succeed in Japan, and they don't need to.  Similarly with Nintendo ... they don't need to win over the Xbox or Sony fans to be a success.

It seems like your arguments are based on ignorance (not knowing about the Xbox 360 from personal experience), or emotion.  That's fine, but let's not pretend that it's anything other than that.

[Strell]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane

I never said Nintendo chooses to make good games or bad ones but just that they choose if they make sequels or not. On the Cube they often chose to make a sequel or a Mario spinoff. That's the choice I'm talking about. They honestly didn't try too many new concepts out on the Cube and the "Who are you?" ad campaign makes it pretty obvious that they were franchise happy. I do agree though that at the very least the remote has inspired them to try new stuff out, even if I don't feel the controller was required to do that or is even a better design.

And the whole solution was weird to begin with. "We didn't sell enough Cubes. That's because our controller was too intimidating for non-gamers." Huh? How does that make any sense? Do they honestly think THAT was the problem? How are they ever going to improve if they're so utterly clueless about what the real problems were? Aside from online support (which is still goofy since they reportedly haven't given third parties info about it yet) they haven't really addressed the problems with the Cube. Instead they're just doing something weird and different and introducing some new problems like super expensive controllers, no HD support, inferior hardware specs, and an incredibly awful name.

I only felt optimistic about Nintendo's chances when the PS3 price was revealed.

Well the first paragraph only makes sense from the consumer level and not from a business level, and as we've all agreed that Nintendo is a business....

Doesn't change the fact that you sound like you didn't give any of the oddball games any chance though based on reviews.  That's like not getting cereal from a grocery store because you don't like one of the stockers working there.

As for the second paragraph, there's just so much wrong there.  How is $10 more for a controller far advanced than it's closest competition "super expensive?"

I won't touch the HD argument.  The graphics look awesome already.

Inferior hardware specs?  See immediate sentence above.

No one cares about the awful name EXCEPT those who don't want the system (i.e., MS/Sony fanboys).

As for their line about "we didn't sell enough Cubes," that is standard PR/market speak.  What the hell do you expect them to say?  "Gwarsh we shuah f*cked up!"  No, they have to deliver a line that still makes it sound like they learned their lesson AND are pledging toward the future.

And finally, standard controllers are awkward.  I'd be considered a hardcore gamer, but I hate how FPSes control.  HATE it.  So I can't measure my joy when I get to actually aim now.  I'm great at light gun games, and this is certainly going to satisfy that thurst.  

To do the sorts of things with Wii Tennis on a standard controller would require various button presses.  To us, it's no big deal.  But it's still annoying enough.  That one simple motion completely allows for lobs, slices, drop shots, and everything else.  AND uses a motion we're all attuned to and can instantly start doing.  That IS the definition of making it simpler.

I agree they are making it simpler toward the casual audience.  But it also makes it a hell of a lot of fun, and isn't that what the hardcore set wants so badly these days?  Fun games?

You're talking in circles.  Just stop it and try the Wii out.  You have completely dismissed the Wiimote for over a year now and continue to do so by grasping at straws that have nothing to do with the argument at hand.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Ian is quick to dismiss Nintendo's efforts to expand, whether via new game concepts or publishing games by lesser known parties.

How can a review be a measure of a game's overall worth given the state of today's gaming press?

I thought reviews should be useful for providing insight on components that individual players are personally interested in.  BUT IT SEEMS GAME PLAYERS AND GAME REVIEWERS HAVE THE EXACT SAME TASTES.  THEREFORE, ANYTHING BELOW 90% ON THOSE STUPID GAME REVIEW STAT SITES ARE AUTOMATIC GARBAGE.

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO CRITICAL THINKING AND INDIVIDUALITY

BY HIGHLIGHTING THIS SPOILER YOU AGREE TO LOCK THIS THREAD AND TAKE A REVERSE DUMP

[Ian Sane]

"Nintendo is not disallowing HD support. The console simply can't do it"

How is that any different?  Nintendo isn't offering the feature.

"It seems like your arguments are based on ignorance (not knowing about the Xbox 360 from personal experience), or emotion."

Ignorance of the Xbox 360 is it.  I'm mostly going off of initial info revealed well over a year ago.  Splitting the userbase is referencing the hard drive specifically.  Any developer that wanted to make specific use of the hard drive can't ensure that every member of the userbase can use it.  I don't know if MS even allows this though.

"Doesn't change the fact that you sound like you didn't give any of the oddball games any chance though based on reviews. That's like not getting cereal from a grocery store because you don't like one of the stockers working there."

I see it more like not going to movies that critics sh!t on.  I'm not rich and thus don't like spending money on games that several people are telling me are mediocre or poor.  And renting Cube games is pretty much not even an option since most rental places have a horrible selection (or literally no Cube games at all).  When did avoiding a game because it got lousy reviews suddenly become a bad thing?  If these same games were made by someone other than Nintendo you wouldn't give them a chance either.

[ShyGuy]

If Xbox could do HD support, Wii probably could. I don't know how well though.

[Kairon]

Well, you're right with the HD issue splitting up the userbase, or making it so Developers can't count on it, and you're right on the unfortunate business of Japanese support of the XBox 360 (which is interesting, but a topic for another board). But personally, aside from those two issues, (and faulty hardware) I really feel that the XBox 360 has done the most "traditionally right" this generation.

Too bad I don't see what's so great about a lot of their hardcore-esque american style games either. But objectively, they haven't done bad at all. Heck, they've even got 50 dollar new games.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Ian Sane]

"But personally, aside from those two issues, (and faulty hardware) I really feel that the XBox 360 has done the most 'traditionally right' this generation."

Okay, I'll agree with that.

[Louieturkey]

Quote
Originally posted by: ShyGuy
If Xbox could do HD support, Wii probably could. I don't know how well though.

This fact everybody forgets about.  Of course, I guess it's not a problem of if the system can output HD, it's a question of did Nintendo put the option into the hardware.  Since they most likely did not allow the option in the hardware, the Wii, while powerful enough, does not have the option since it was intentionally left out.

[Mario]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"Do you own Chibi Robo? Odama? Mario DDR? Battalion Wars? Did you buy Viewtiful Joe and RE4 when they were exclusive? Did you get Pikmin 2?"

Chibi Robo - No. Just didn't catch my interest. Average reviews.
Odama - No because reviews and impressions said it wasn't any good.
Mario DDR - Yep.
Battalion Wars - No. Average reviews.
Viewtiful Joe - Yep. I didn't really like it actually though I can see why others did.
Resident Evil 4 - No and I honestly don't know why I haven't played it yet.
Pikmin 2 - F*ck yeah. Best game on the Cube and one of the Nintendo's best ever.

NON-GAMER!

[Nick DiMola]

"Chibi Robo - No. Just didn't catch my interest. Average reviews."

Ian personaly speaking, I read some reviews on this game and they were absolute crap. Me and my fiancee enjoyed this game very much. It was full of personality and a blast to play. To reiterate a point already made, trusting the reviewers of today is crazy. Videogame journalism is a joke and I can't stand the intense bias found in all the major game related sites out there. Word of mouth carries alot more weight for me and the general consensus on Chibi Robo in general was that it was a great game.

[Kairon]

I bought Chibi Robo but I didn't get past the 30 min. mark... does it get better? I mean... nothing really grabbed me despite the games abundant style. I never even got into another room, just that main living room with the guy on the couch.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Djunknown]

Damn I didn't think this thread would go this long. I haven't seen long rants like these in a long time.

Quote
As for new concepts, they've tried to do so with their franchises. Metroid Prime 2 didn't sell because "it was too much like Prime," despite the fact that there's only two damn games in that franchise in 3D.

I believe Prime bombed at retail for three reasons

1)GTA:SA. GTA fever hit an all time high with record sales.
2)Halo 2: Biggest ad-campaign in recent history and most anticipated seque.l
3)Nintendo was pushing the DS really hard. Understandable, and now justifiable.

Quote
Resident Evil 4 - No and I honestly don't know why I haven't played it yet.

Ian, pick this up when you get a chance. Its a player's choice title, do they have that concept in Canada?

As far as my 2 cents; If Nintendo just released a 'traditional' console, I would have jumped ship (and I guess jump ship from PGC) and not look back. But after revealing the uber-mysterious controller last year, it kept me interested. This time around, I won't be foolish and just buy one console. Billy analyzed the weaknesses in his editorial, so I won't expect the Wii be the end-all console. I won't be jumping the Nintendo boat anytime soon, but I'll be one those Wii60 or PSWii folk.

[Nick DiMola]

"I bought Chibi Robo but I didn't get past the 30 min. mark... does it get better? I mean... nothing really grabbed me despite the games abundant style. I never even got into another room, just that main living room with the guy on the couch."

Without a doubt. There is so much for you to do it's crazy. As with many games, the begininng is tedium but after a short while, mainly after you get out of the living room, all sorts of cool stuff starts to happen, plus a pretty interesting story line. I would advise trying again because you are missing out on one of the most memorable cube games.

[Strell]

Whenever I see "Grand Master Billy," I think Billy and Mandy.

And then I end up reading it in some sort of crazy Richard Horvitz voice.

"GRAND MASTER BILL-AUGH."

[IceCold]

Quote
Ian, pick this up when you get a chance. Its a player's choice title, do they have that concept in Canada?

Yeah we do.. Actually, I saw RE4 selling $40 CDN only a month or so after it released (down from $60), and now that it's Player's Choice it's at $30 CDN.. But I remember Ian saying that he wasn't a fan of Resident Evil games.. This one's different, though.

[TerribleOne]

Quote
Originally posted by: Djunknown


As far as my 2 cents; If Nintendo just released a 'traditional' console, I would have jumped ship (and I guess jump ship from PGC) and not look back. But after revealing the uber-mysterious controller last year, it kept me interested. This time around, I won't be foolish and just buy one console. Billy analyzed the weaknesses in his editorial, so I won't expect the Wii be the end-all console. I won't be jumping the Nintendo boat anytime soon, but I'll be one those Wii60 or PSWii folk.

yea thats how i felt also... i believe after my 360 purchase i've become more patient with nintendo. so now whaterver they want to do in their quirky little world is ok as long as they release what is expected of them..

[trip1eX]

Chibi Robo is my game of the year.  Great game.  

Prime 2 bombed I think because the 'Cube was on life support by then.  And I don't think the public really really like the first Metroid Prime to tell the truth.  Americans much preferred a more traditional fps game like Halo.  I was the opposite.  I was sick of the same 'ole fps game.

It took me like a year to finish Prime 2.  It was a bit too much like the first one.  The 1st one tho was a classic.  GReat game.  

I thoroughly enjoyed my GAmecube experience.  I played many many great games.  I bought the 'Cube for a dirt cheap $100 with MarioKartD and a $15 off coupon.  I have to say that was a great deal.  A total steal.  

IT's ironic that when the gaming media was calling the  'Cube dead it seemed like the biggest bargain in the world.  Cheap price and AAA games you couldn't find elsewhere.   I mean by late 2k4 and after it was the time to buy one.  By that time you could easily ride out the rest of its lifetime (a couple years) playing nothing but great games for next to nothing.  That's why I was always puzzled by the media's recommendations not to buy a 'Cube.    

 

[Svevan]

Quote
Originally posted by: Mr. Jack
I read some reviews on this game and they were absolute crap. Me and my fiancee enjoyed this game very much. It was full of personality and a blast to play. To reiterate a point already made, trusting the reviewers of today is crazy. Videogame journalism is a joke and I can't stand the intense bias found in all the major game related sites out there.

Cut my heart out with a dull object.