Topic: The Wiimote does NOT work like people seem to think...

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: Michael8983
Didn't a developer of Trauma Center say the game would involve "depth" and gave the example of thrusting the controller forward and backwards to simulate a defibrillator?

If the technology at work can indeed detect the tilt/rotation of the of the controller, where it's pointed, and how far away from the sensor bar it is - it can more or less do everything a 3D mouse could even if it technically isn't one.

As for the example of it not being able to detect where in the room the Wii-mote is upon boot-up. Does you're computer know where on your desk your mouse is when it boots up?

But the Wii controller detects depth by detecting and comparing several signals from the Sensor Bar, probably measuring the angle between two IR rays is my guess.

This means that it can function like a full 3D mouse AS LONG AS it can detect the sensor bar out of it's front window.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Michael8983]

"But the Wii controller detects depth by detecting and comparing several signals from the Sensor Bar, probably measuring the angle between two IR rays is my guess.
This means that it can function like a full 3D mouse AS LONG AS it can detect the sensor bar out of it's front window."

I see what you mean.
It just seems like it's been suggested that the remote has to ALWAYS be pointed at or near the sensor bar for it to work. I'm just not sure if that's really the case.
It's been confirmed that pointing the Wii-mote too far away from the bar will lose your cursor position in games like Metroid and Red Steel.  When that happens, it apparently resets itself after a second or two. People act like it's a technical limitation but it could simply be in the programming. Afterall it has to take into account that in real life situations you might move from one end of the couch to the other, switch chairs, or even pass the remote to another player. If the sensor bar could indeed detect where the remote is pointed even if its pointed far from the bar (like straight down or even towards the player) imagine the frustration of having to try and figure out where to aim the remote to get the cursor to reappear on screen. Having it reset itself when the Wii-mote is pointed too far out of range just makes sense.

 

[ThePerm]

what the controller can do

if you turn the controller away from the sensor bar it cannot detect depth...it detects depth by measuring the amount of time it takes the ir to get to the sensor. kinda like echo location..but with light.

as far as light gun style games...they can be done....but are done in a different way. The controller understands tilt. left right, up and down, and "wrist barrelrolls".  if tilting the front up and down it would change the y position up or down on the screen, if turning left and right it changes the x position. "barrelrolling" the controller changes the circular position of the "site".....moving your hand in 3d motion affects a 2d cursor..which can then affect a 3d plane....

so what we know....your movement is controlled by your wrist, but probably not your elbow...doing elbow motions would mess up the whole thing

[nemo_83]

I'm confused, didn't Nintendo make an investment in Gyration (demo).

[Athrun Zala]

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Originally posted by: thejeek
Only 4D? For backwards compatibility they should probably have 34D. Or maybe 34DD, just to be double sure...

64DD games on VC FTW!

[wandering]

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Originally posted by: nemo_83
I'm confused, didn't Nintendo make an investment in Gyration (demo).

Perhaps that was just for Wario Ware?

[The Omen]

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t just seems like it's been suggested that the remote has to ALWAYS be pointed at or near the sensor bar for it to work. I'm just not sure if that's really the case.

You're incorrect sir.  The wiimote is pointed at the screen.  When shooting in, say a fps like Bond, you would aim at the person you're trying to shoot, not the sensor bar.  The fact that the wiimote points in the direction of the sensor bar, but not directly at it/'into it' doesn't matter.  I tried a Madden 07 demo, and you aim at the receiver when throwing a pass, certainly not at the bar.  Nobody has told me that this isn't the case.  If I stood so close to my tv that the wiimote was 6 inches from the glass, I may have a problem(though I'm not sure) because the sensor bar would be just about directly above or below it.  But nobody is going to play a game like that anyway.  I tried it from 3 feet away, which is closer than I would have liked , and it worked fine.

[zakkiel]

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But the Wii controller detects depth by detecting and comparing several signals from the Sensor Bar, probably measuring the angle between two IR rays is my guess.

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That's a very weird way to put it. The remote doesn't "interact" with a "field." Depending on its position, the bright spots from the IR LEDs will show up in different spots on its CMOS sensor.

That would require sophisticated optical equipment which I doubt the controller has, since it's unnecessary.

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Exactly. Triangulation from only two points is not sufficient to determine location in 3D space - hence the need for both accelerometers and the sensor bar. Whether this is a problem in practice though remains to be seen.

If the sensor bar were used in that way, you would notice that up/down orientation was much less accurate than right/left. If you have two receivers on the remote, you can use compare four imputs - two to the front of the controller, two to the back - and get an accurate orientation around two axes, which is all you need for pointing.

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if you turn the controller away from the sensor bar it cannot detect depth...it detects depth by measuring the amount of time it takes the ir to get to the sensor. kinda like echo location..but with light.

Completely wrong, but points for confidence. In order for the controller to sense its distance to within, say, a tenth of a meter (the maximum distance I would say you could use and still have it be useful for gameplay) the controller and sensor bar would both have to have clocks accurate to within a third of a nanosecond, or close to the precision of the most advanced modern atomic clocks. And you would have to synchronize those clocks to start with. So unless the Wii comes with a personal industrial physics lab, absolute signal time will not be used to calculate distance.

[The Omen]

Just to clarify what I said about Madden-this was in the beta stage of the game, and there was a practice mode which allowed you to motion to the WR and throw the ball in one motion, left, right, straight, etc.., no buttons were neccesary.  Obviously, they've changed that since then.  But in that case, you pointed the wiimote at the tv screen, not directly at the sensor bar, so that's what I was talking about.

[Jensen]

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Originally posted by: zakkiel

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 Depending on its position, the bright spots from the IR LEDs will show up in different spots on its CMOS sensor.

That would require sophisticated optical equipment which I doubt the controller has, since it's unnecessary.

That's basically how an optical mouse works, nothing new...



The article has some stuff that I haven't read of before, such as the mention of multiple accelerometers in each controller, but there are some errors in the article, so I can't really believe any new information.

[zakkiel]

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That's basically how an optical mouse works, nothing new...

Not at all. Do you mean 3d mice? If so, I have no idea, except that they weren't precise enough to succeed.

[Michael8983]

Numerous impressions of Sonic Wild Fire say that in that game you thrust the controller forward to make Sonic attack enemies. But it doesn't seem like that would be possible if the remote HAD to be pointed towards the tv/bar to detect depth since, in that game, you hold the controller sideways with the "pointer" pointing off to the side.

[Kairon]

The Wiimote has an accelerometer, which means that detecting whether it's being "thrust" or not is possible.

But if you wanted to ask a pointer being held "classic" style what angle it's long axis makes with the screen, then you can't do that.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[BlkPaladin]

In addition it doesn't use IR since IR needs line of sight, which is not possible when you are holding it sideways in games like Exite Truck.

The problems with "going off the sensor bar" can be explained by simple software problems. How the Wii detects the controller isn't the problem its the problem with the software that translates it to in game movement. For each sensitivity settings the software has maximum threshold for movement as well as minimal thresh holds. When the Wii detects a gross movement and the software can makes heads or tails about how it should handle it it either wont or do something else. For example if you up to close to the bar and moved a lot with a high sentivity, the bar would read it like you were moving the controller 5 or more feet if the programming was not there, so normally if a reading goes over the maximum thresh hold the programmer whould make sure that the game whould ignore the input.

So most of the controller problems at E3 would more than like be programming issues because the programming for reading the controller movements haven't been fine tuned or flushed out to include reading how close the controller is to the bar and make automatic sensitivity changes.

[Michael8983]

"The Wiimote has an accelerometer, which means that detecting whether it's being "thrust" or not is possible."

Can it detect which direction it's being thrust in?
If it can't, that's a major problem but if it CAN, I don't see it being very limited at all.
Like in a sword fighting game, it could detect vertical, horizontal, and diagnol thrusts.
On top of that, with the gyroscope it knows which angle the remote is being held which would allow the game to know the difference between a slash at an enemies legs or head. Then of course a stabbing motion with the sword would be performed with the remote pointed AT the screen/bar which would allow for even better accuracy. On top of that you could hold the sword outward and move it freely and precisely where you want it. Which was obviously the inspiration for the scene in Red Steel where you spare an enemy's life by holding the sword to his neck. You could even hold the sword/remote straight up or sideways and angle it however you want with just the gyroscopes. Perfect for fending off projectiles.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong about the remote being capable of any part of that.



 

[mantidor]

"Can it detect which direction it's being thrust in?"

It has to, otherwise the minigame in warioware about balancing a broomstick wouldn't work.

[Dirk Temporo]

More importantly than anything else in this thread, why in the name of God don't any of the games shown so far have some sort of calibration. Point at middle of screen, click. Point at the four corners of the screen, click each time. Voila, it now knows where on the screen you're pointing. It can't be that hard to do. And that would completely alleviate the need to point at the sensor bar.

[Jensen]

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Originally posted by: BlkPaladin
In addition it doesn't use IR since IR needs line of sight, which is not possible when you are holding it sideways in games like Exite Truck.

 Wii doesn't use IR for data transmission.  Excite Truck doesn't use IR at all.  Only games that display a cursor use IR.

[Jensen]

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Originally posted by: zakkiel

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That's basically how an optical mouse works, nothing new...

Not at all. Do you mean 3d mice? If so, I have no idea, except that they weren't precise enough to succeed.

Optical mice use a small camera to track the texture of a surface.  The Wiimote uses a small camera to track LEDs.  The Wiimote can calculate a little more info though, like how much the controller is twisted(roll axis), and how far the controller is from the sensor bar. (I hate calling it the sensor bar, as it isn't)

 

[BlkPaladin]

I doubt that. The power consumption required for what the controller has that we know about is phenomonal plus you can do all the required functions with just the acclerometers and bluetooth, there is no need for LEDs with cameras because then the wand would be useless. (And not to mention all we can do is speculate on how it works.)

How it can work with just what we know about:

The accelerometer are used to measure direction and "force" of the movement. (And thus you could derive a sense of speed.) And the tilt of the controller.

The bluetooth is used for transimission plus to measure depeth and relitive position. The depth is found by using a radar gun type of approch, to futher this there are only four known settings for the controllers so each has a set timing interval and fequence using this the Wii can calculate how far the controller is from the bar. And if the controler is moving away or towards the bar.

Now here is why there has to be a bar (the wand). The bar is used to sense were the leading edge of the tranmission is (the first contact, a small sensor would not be able to do this well)  

[Athrun Zala]

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Originally posted by: Dirk Temporo
More importantly than anything else in this thread, why in the name of God don't any of the games shown so far have some sort of calibration. Point at middle of screen, click. Point at the four corners of the screen, click each time. Voila, it now knows where on the screen you're pointing. It can't be that hard to do. And that would completely alleviate the need to point at the sensor bar.

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the wiimote is calibrated/reseted/whatever when oyu simply hold it completely still.....

[Kairon]

Quote
Originally posted by: BlkPaladin
I doubt that. The power consumption required for what the controller has that we know about is phenomonal plus you can do all the required functions with just the acclerometers and bluetooth, there is no need for LEDs with cameras because then the wand would be useless. (And not to mention all we can do is speculate on how it works.)

How it can work with just what we know about:

The accelerometer are used to measure direction and "force" of the movement. (And thus you could derive a sense of speed.) And the tilt of the controller.

The bluetooth is used for transimission plus to measure depeth and relitive position. The depth is found by using a radar gun type of approch, to futher this there are only four known settings for the controllers so each has a set timing interval and fequence using this the Wii can calculate how far the controller is from the bar. And if the controler is moving away or towards the bar.

Now here is why there has to be a bar (the wand). The bar is used to sense were the leading edge of the tranmission is (the first contact, a small sensor would not be able to do this well)

Why does the bar emit light then?

Oh, and what radar gun is this anyways? I thought Radar guns measured speed, not distance!

And does signal triangulation work on such a small scale or is it innacurate at this level?

And finally, how does your theory fit in with Will Wright's comments that the controller functions differently at 5 feet than at 10 feet, or the comment I heard from Alain Tuscan, General Manager for EA Montreal, that the controller only has a small cone (~30 degrees) of pointer functionality and that if someone walks in front of you then it doesn't function?

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Dirk Temporo]

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Originally posted by: Athrun Zala

Quote
Originally posted by: Dirk Temporo
More importantly than anything else in this thread, why in the name of God don't any of the games shown so far have some sort of calibration. Point at middle of screen, click. Point at the four corners of the screen, click each time. Voila, it now knows where on the screen you're pointing. It can't be that hard to do. And that would completely alleviate the need to point at the sensor bar.

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the wiimote is calibrated/reseted/whatever when oyu simply hold it completely still.....

No, I mean so that where you point on the screen is where the cursor is. As it stands now, to put the cursor in the middle of the screen, you have to point at the middle of the sensor bar.

[Jensen]

It's worthless arguing with BlkPaladin.

But Radar does measure distance.  By taking multilple distance readings over time, a radar gun calculates speed.

But the Wii doesn't use anything like that.

[Jensen]

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No, I mean so that where you point on the screen is where the cursor is. As it stands now, to put the cursor in the middle of the screen, you have to point at the middle of the sensor bar.

Point what at the middle of the screen? The controller has no sights, so how do you know you're pointing it at the middle of the screen?  Do you hold it up to your eye and line it up as well as you can?  

Let's say that you pick some arbitrary orientation that you think feels like pointing at the middle of the screen.  Now you've just further limited the range of motion you can make before the Wiimote points out of range.

Here's a test if you have a laser pointer.  Stand 10-15 feet from a target.  Hold the laser pointer at waist level, pointing towards what you think is the target.  Now turn the laser on.  Your aim is probablyquite a bit off.

I do understand what you are explaining,  I just don't think it will matter in practice.