Topic: Metroid Prime 3: Discussion with Series Producer

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
Backtracking >>>>>>>>> Linear

Like I said, the backtracking in MP1 was fine. It had just enough that you could generally remember where you needed to return to in order to progress. MP2, on the other hand, overdid the backtracking to the point where I didn't care to see any further in the game.

I don't care how "core" of an element backtracking is to the game: it's a game mechanic used to artificially extend the play time and too much of it is just obnoxious.

I'll rent MP3 before I buy it, unless I hear from reviews that the backtracking was drastically toned down.

Furthermore, what's so great about backtracking? Why would anyone be so enamored with the concept of walking back through an area (often repeatedly) that they've already been to in order to access an area which you've already seen but the game didn't allow you to enter until you picked up an item from ANOTHER area?

[ThePerm]

the world in  metroid is  so  big and interconnected,  yet big and clostrophobic at  times...i  get lost alot,  yet in zelda i never get lost. There  are alot of  rooms that look alike.

[Bill Aurion]

The stupid key hunt at the end. Metroid Prime is not a short game.

I think I'm the only one who liked the treasure hunt...If the game outright told you exactly where the pieces were, then yeah, but it was basically solving minature riddles...I enjoyed it!...MP2's key trek was pretty tiresome though...

That boss required me to look up at things from above. I'm required to do this with a game system designed so that I never have to look up. Looking up in Metroid Prime is incredibly awkward and difficult and now I was required to fight the game to overcome this obstacle. I never beat Metroid Prime 2 because of this.

Well you obviously have nothing to worry about anymore, thanks to the Revmote...

I don't care how "core" of an element backtracking is to the game: it's a game mechanic used to artificially extend the play time and too much of it is just obnoxious.

No, it's a mechanic used to naturally produce non-linear gameplay...If you don't like backtracking, why are you even playing Metroid games?

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
No, it's a mechanic used to naturally produce non-linear gameplay...If you don't like backtracking, why are you even playing Metroid games?

You can produce non-linear gameplay in a number of creative ways which don't involve the boring retracing of steps. Making the player walk back through an area which they've already been to numerous times is just as repugnant as Rare's practice of making players collect endless piles of unnecessary crap to extend the overall play time.

I enjoy the bosses in Metroid, the combat, and the puzzle solving. I do not enjoy checking the map to figure out which doors can now be opened with the latest item I've acquired from a defeated boss.

Like I said, unless MP3 tones down the backtracking or adds some excellent online multiplayer, I don't intend on buying it.  

[Ceric]

If anyone wants to put vehicles in the Metroid series *flexes muscles*  They'll have to get through me.  Seriously enough though I have never found a game, including Halo, that the edition of vehicles to a platform or shooter was good.  

[Smash_Brother]

Vehicles just wouldn't fit the game very well. Samus is her own vehicle, unless you're talking space combat with her ship, which could be interesting if done properly.

[Hostile Creation]

I didn't mind the artifact hunt in the first one; I already had like three or so before I even started looking, and the puzzles were fun.
The keys in Metroid Prime 2 were just more of an annoyance.  They never really bothered me that much (except for the nine at the end), but they could have been done away with.  The ones at the end were dumb, they should have had another ending thing, or at least just three keys.

[Jonnyboy117]

This is the most I've agreed with Ian in recent memory.

[vudu]

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Growlers or whatever they're called. These enemies I found never got easier. They were harder then some bosses to begin with and never became easier. And that made going back to any area with them frustrating.

Which ones were Growlers?  I remember I hated those floating things in the Fortress (there were 3 of them in the verticle shaft in the same room where you fought one of the robot mini-bosses).  I can't remembe why, but I was stuck there looking for something for like two hours and I had to kill about 90 of those things.  God they were annoying.

Also, bring back the Super Missle.  Five regular missles at once don't cut it.

Finally, no one-time scans except for bosses.  

[Galford]

That's some interesting tidbits Johnny...

While MP2 was hard, but it wasn't so hard that it couldn't be beaten.  I always thought the Spider Ball Guardian was harder then the Boost Ball Guardian.  Also the game didn't get downright mean until you fought the second main boss, you know the one that morphs three times.  The one that required the grapple beam.

You have to be careful how you do a grapple beam in 3d.  The way it's currently done works well within the context of a 3d Metroid.  The only reason Super Metroid could get way with it's grapple beam, was because it was a 2d game.

I'm more interested in seeing how the story of Metroid will evolve.  At the end of Fusion it's implied Samus may or may not be a good guy the next time around.  I hope MP3 at least has a story beyond let's save the world b/c Samus is a nice lady.

[vudu]

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At the end of Fusion it's implied Samus may or may not be a good guy the next time around.

Come again?  I certainly don't remember that implication.

[Ian Sane]

"i get lost alot, yet in zelda i never get lost."

That's because in Zelda the world resembles something more like reality.  There are towns and rivers and mountains and things we can identify as different.  In Metroid it's like the game is one big dungeon.  If Zelda was one big dungeon you would get lost more too.

Metroid needs backtracking.  It just wouldn't be a true adventure game without it.  Though I don't consider that backtracking but rather exploration.  "Backtracking" is a term I use for lousy game design.  If it's a big pain in the ass to go back somewhere then it's backtracking, otherwise it's exploration.  The trick I suppose is what you get from retracing your steps.  Going back to get a key sucks.  Going back to open a door you couldn't before to access a whole new area is awesome.  I LOVE that feeling.

Though one thing that would be cool is the ability to flag areas on the map that have something you know you can't access yet but will later.  I've found with a lot of games like this I get stuck because I can't remember where I saw something that my new ability would allow me to access.  Sometimes the map can help because there's a big unexplored blob or a door with nothing behind it.  But sometimes you saw something under a vent or something that the map can't indicate as unexplored because you've been in the room.  So you should be able to flag things to remind yourself to check them out later.  They could have multiple flag types like specific flags for missiles or bombs.  So you know that that flag just means you saw missiles you can't reach yet as opposed to the opening of a new area.

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Going back to open a door you couldn't before to access a whole new area is awesome.  I LOVE that feeling.

I think it's horribly cheesy when the game forces you to go make two trips to an area you only wanted to see once, but to each their own, I suppose.

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Though one thing that would be cool is the ability to flag areas on the map that have something you know you can't access yet but will later.  I've found with a lot of games like this I get stuck because I can't remember where I saw something that my new ability would allow me to access.  Sometimes the map can help because there's a big unexplored blob or a door with nothing behind it.  But sometimes you saw something under a vent or something that the map can't indicate as unexplored because you've been in the room.  So you should be able to flag things to remind yourself to check them out later.  They could have multiple flag types like specific flags for missiles or bombs.  So you know that that flag just means you saw missiles you can't reach yet as opposed to the opening of a new area.

This would have helped a GREAT deal in making MP2 finishable for me. Having to say, "Ok, I just picked up the _____. Now what can I open?" was the least enjoyable part of the game.

[Smash_Brother]

Quote
Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
Backtracking >>>>>>>>> Linear

Always...

I just realized something: Metroid IS linear!

If there's always one "right" place to go (and there is), then the game is linear.

If it were NON-linear, then I could choose which of 3-4 pieces of equipment I wanted to hunt down first. Maybe I'd pick the magnet ball which would make boss X easier or maybe I'd go for the jump boots because I just love the "flying" feeling. But no, that's not how Metroid works. Just because the game forces you to backtrack over an area you've already been does not prevent it from being a linear game.

There is a very SPECIFIC order in which you have to open doors, defeat bosses, and find items. The fact that the hint system exists at all is iron-clad PROOF that the game is linear.

If the game can tell you the next location you NEED to be, then the game is linear, period.

[Strell]

Ian, I am beginning to think you need a new hobby.  I don't think this gaming thing is working out for you.

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: Strell
Ian, I am beginning to think you need a new hobby.  I don't think this gaming thing is working out for you.

Give him credit where it's due.

The "flagging" idea for Metroid games would make them infinitely better. Rather than having to say, "Now where the f*ck was that Benzozate rock again?!?" being able to mark its location would greatly reduce the frustration with the game, especially if you could use the map to search for only flags which involve Benzozate, green doors, or whatnot.

[ThePerm]

hmm well actually i got the dark burst before i was required to, because i remembered some doors i  could now access and  ignored the  hint system for a while.

[Bloodworth]

As I've mentioned to a few other people, what made backtracking in Super Metroid so much more bearable was the fact that by the time you got back to those beginning areas, you had powers that let you move through the environment faster.  Whether it was the speed boost/jump, the screw attack, or the space jump, you were able to pretty much rush through areas to get that door you'd seen since the beginning of the game.  

The biggest flaw in the transition to 3D is that Samus moves entirely different. She's much slower and can barely jump - Mario in 3D controls more like 2D Metroid than 3D Metroid does.  The irony being that Mario wasn't nearly as acrobatic in 2D.

[Smash_Brother]

The bursts can be an exception, as well as some upgrades (but even those require other upgrades to obtain).

Still, the game ushers you from one area to the next in a linear fashion...it just happens to require walking back through places you've already been.

There's a reason why OoT employed the teleport songs to get around faster.

[Hostile Creation]

I never had much trouble turning to fight an enemy.  I could turn around really quickly by jumping and spinning in mid-air.  Made it harder for them to hit me, and you turn faster.  It also feels cooler to shoot enemies while you're in the middle of a jump.
I'm also going to have to say that I outright disagree with smash brother on several points, especially the backtracking (though some parts I will admit are tedious).  Backtracking is a part of Metroid games, always has been.  It adds to the atmosphere of the game.  You're playing a different game if you're not backtracking.
Also, Metroid is pretty linear.  But who cares?  Every good game I play is linear.  I hate GTA after playing for about thirty minutes.
I'm also going to have to say that the Spider guardian was probably the most fun boss for me, and I never died playing it.  The half-pipe is simple, it shouldn't take some insane skills to master it.

[Smash_Brother]

It was originally added because the easiest way to extend the play time of the game was to force the player to walk through existing areas rather than create new ones.

Not saying you shouldn't enjoy the game. I just think it's an outdated concept which should be retired.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Backtracking was hardly an issue with me in the 3D Metroids.  You've been to an area once, you know the enemies, you know the terrain, and you learn to JUMP OVER EVERYTHING to get by.  You can get by most rooms in a count to 5 (exaggerating).  Jump here, jump there, use the Morphball along gentle slopes, every "common" enemy has a strategy to eliminate them quickly, etc.

Even the um, Boss-Boss where you have to "look/aim up" a lot...  If you stand under a flag pole, of course it takes more effort to look at the top (given how the game's aiming mechinics are set... looking up slows down as the angle from the horizontal increases).  If you stand much further away, the looking angle is much more gentle.  Samus, at that point in the game, does have an ability to get her across the room safely and quickly, and the arena is fairly big.  I know, looking up is a sore point in the game, but for that particular fight, you're in much greater danger standing "under the flag pole" ANYWAY.  If anything, it's a hint to move to a better spot [which i take as a valid part of the fight design], but i suppose seasoned gamers don't identify the same obvious STRATEGERIES.

I'm sure the Bounty Hunter Samus Aran continually improves her efficiency by learning from each experience.  I guess it's too much to ask of most players.

~~~~~

I do agree with the marker and the scan ideas.

[Ceric]

I hate to say this but from a realism stand point backtracking is quiet real.  I mean I have to do it in real life all the time.  But things change and it's no always the same.  That being said it's no where near the raw distance.  I just don't like it very much.  I must say that having some direction is good for me and the marker thing would be excellent.

[Smash_Brother]

Quote
Originally posted by: Professional 666
I'm sure the Bounty Hunter Samus Aran continually improves her efficiency by learning from each experience.  I guess it's too much to ask of most players.

Show me where Samus fights the "Boredom Monster" without complaint and then we'll talk.

Walking back over the same area I've been to is tedious and I can only tolerate so much of it in a game.

When I learned that, in DK64, the entire game would consist of collecting the same crap five goddamn times with different monkeys, I promptly returned it to the rental store and never thought of buying it.

The MP games aren't NEARLY that bad, but backtracking is tedious and a horrendous way to extent play time.

Dan is right, though, backtracking wasn't as bad in 2D because you could get around much faster whereas 3D is slow and clunky by comparison.

[mantidor]

omg I actually agree with Ian in many points

The only complain I have for Echoes was the hub levels. Even if the game was longer it didnt feel that way. Is analog to traveling. When you go to somewhere unknown, the trip seems really long, but once you are there and return to the point of origin, the trip seems shorter, even if it takes the same time to make both trips. With echoes you knew already there were these three areas to clean, while with Metroid Prime you had no clue what was coming, the phazon mines or phendrana drifts were completly unexpected.

And about Samus agility, shes actually pretty fast in both Primes, but first person doesnt let that to be seen easily. If Retro can make her to act more agile with the remote it would be great, but I honestly have no idea how could that be pulled off in first person. I think that the actual speed of the visor while aiming is perfect, if they make it faster it would be just disorienting and makes precision aiming a lot more difficult.

and oh yes Dont change it to a third person shooter! because it would suck tons. Third person shooters dont work in claustrophobic enviroments, and it wouldnt be Metroid without claustrophobic enviroments.

Also Dont even think about putting Samus out of her suit! except some ultra extremely rare ocasion or the final scenes. She loses all her mistery and game companies cant help to sexualize thier female characters, like the art of Metroid Zero Mission, and I dont care if Bill liked it, it was disgusting she shouldnt be sexualized at all, MP1 was on the right track, in some of the art galleries she's naked but feels like a real woman, not that big-breasts japanese fetish thats so hideous, not to mention the anime style of Samus in Echoes (basically it was a 3D version of the horrible art from Zero Mission), because it doesnt fit at all with Metroid's art direction and enviroments, Nintendo should really give up on Japan with this game, they will never like Metroid like we do, and trying to appeal to japanese only hurts the game in the process for their big fans in the west.

And also another vote for NOT MAKING THIS A PLAIN FIRST PERSON SHOOTER OR ANY OF THAT HALO-ESQUE NONSENSE so basically dont listen to nemo at all.