Topic: Revolutions Fat Library

[ThePerm]

say 2 million people buy revolution they buy at least 10 games for nes at 2 dollars a piece
thats only 40 million dollars

5*10*2=100 million dollars

12*10*2=240 million dollars

[KDR_11k]

Remember, price and profit don't scale linearly, the higher the price the fewer people buy.

[JonLeung]

Ah, reminds me of ECON 101.

I'm sure they've got analysts working at Nintendo on this.  If they charge little, then more people will buy.  If they increase it, less people will buy, but maybe the profit is higher.  If they charge too much, they'll make a lot with each purchase, but the profit will go down because too few people are buying.  Ideally, they'll want to find the sweet spot - a price that the right amount of people will buy at for maximum profit.

I think this price should be lower than what you could pay for them elsewhere.  I don't agree with Ian about Final Fantasy III (I assume he means VI) being $50 when the GBA remake coming out soon will probably be less than that.  And with remakes and ports, you have to wonder if they would even have them available.  I'm sure the GBA versions of the Super NES/Super Famicom games A Link To The Past and Mega Man & Bass kept them off the Zelda Collectors Disc and Mega Man Anniversary collection respectively.  To me, that's stupid - a collection should be a collection of everything - but I can understand that they'd want to make money off the GBA remakes and not hurt their profits there when it's included in something else.

I think we talked about price in another topic...I don't think anything over $9.99 is going to be a good price.  When you can get current-gen games at a deal for $20, a pre-gen game for more than half sounds steep.  If you were paying for a mint-condition copy of a hard-to-find cartridge, sure you can ask for more.  But for a download?  Seems like much when there's nothing physical there to cherish.  

[vudu]

Not that it really matters, but I'm pretty sure Ian was referring to FF III (JP), which has never been released in its original form in English (and probably never will).

[JonLeung]

But FF III is being reimagined for the DS, with 3D graphics and such.  Yeah, it's weird, with I & II together and IV-VI on the GBA and then III having 3D and DS features...ah well.

In that case too, how can you even justify $50 for FF III?  Famicom game...who would translate it?...Japanese text...  When it's very likely that FF III will come out on the DS even in North America...DS game...DS features...English text...3D graphics...

I can see the original Final Fantasy selling because of nostalgia, but if most North Americans haven't played FF III, there's no way it could be half a hundred bucks.

[vudu]

People would buy it because they want to experience the game the original way it was meant to be played.  It's not something that would be for everyone.  But those would would be interested are probably willing to spend more than most people would on most games (if that makes any sense).  

Half a hundred bucks?  I've never heard that expression.

[Ian Sane]

"Not that it really matters, but I'm pretty sure Ian was referring to FF III (JP), which has never been released in its original form in English (and probably never will)."

Yes that's the Final Fantasy I was refering to.  I don't think they should charge that price for that game but since it has never been released here I imagine they could probably sell a fair bit of copies at that price.

My point is that some games in stores start at $50 and stay at that price forever because people are willing to pay it while other games are 20 bucks a few months after release.  The same principle could apply for the downloads where some games maintain a high price because they can get away with it while others are forced to become to encourage sales.

Any obscure game that goes for big money on Ebay could probably be sold at the cost of a brand new in-stores game and still sell because $50 is still cheaper than $100.  I wouldn't pay that kind of money and I would be pretty annoyed if a title I wanted was priced that way but they probably could get away with it in a few situations.

[wandering]

I doubt Nintendo could get away with charging that much. IN the same way that if Disney ever re-releases the Song of the South, they couldn't get away with charging 100$ for it. The reason those games are expensive is becasuse they're rare...if you re-issue a rare game and make it available in high quantities, you can't expect people to pay a lot of money just because it used to be rare.

Though I do agree that Nintendo should offer dynamic pricing - based on the quality ofr the games. I'd be willing to pay 20 bucks for Majora's Mask or Paper Mario, I wouldn't be willing to pay that much for Superman 64

[JonLeung]

Not that it matters but I still think it'd be ridiculous to charge $50 for FF III simply because a DS version is coming out which would likely be cheaper and definitely enhanced.  Sure, the original is the original but it's not worth $50.  We're talking four generations back. You want it to stay rare by having people afraid of paying a lot for it and for some of those people that do to think it's not worth it?

If we're talking physical copies of the game, where holding an original cartrdige is worth something, yes.  But we're talking downloads, in which case every download makes it less rare.  You can justify certain games being worth more than others, but for any of them at all to be around the price of a new current-gen game to me seems kind of silly.  I honestly don't see prices to be more than $9.99.  I have been wrong before.  Though I'm sure I can say I don't want them to be more than $9.99.  If they were about ten bucks I'd buy a few games.  If they were over twenty bucks I'm sure I'd buy next to none considering I played most of these good games already.  If they were a couple bucks I'd probably buy like crazy, likely spending more than if they were ten or twenty bucks each.  And Nintendo would want me to spend more, and willingly.

I think if games are going to be sorted by franchise as rumoured, there should be more of a reason for that.  Maybe buying a couple games within the same series could provide discounts if you were to keep buying more within that same series.  It would certainly get people hooked...if they bought Super Mario Bros., Super Mario Bros. 2, and Super Mario Bros. 3, then maybe they could get The Lost Levels for cheaper than if they just bought that.  Or they could get a discount on Super Mario All-Stars, since it'd be the same games again, just with better graphics.  And then if they bought Super Mario World, should they really have to pay anything to get the later version of Super Mario All-Stars that included Super Mario World?

And then there's Ocarina Of Time and Ocarina Of Time: Master Quest.  Buying one should make the other one seriously discounted.

Of course, I'm ASSUMING (or at least HOPING)  that recognizeable Japanese games that have had North American releases like The Lost Levels and Master Quest will show up, and on their respective original consoles.  The Lost Levels was on the NES (Famicom if you want to get technical), but North Americans didn't officially see it until the Super NES, while Master Quest was for the N64 (or meant for it?) but came out for the GameCube (and only on the Collectors Edition Disc no less).  I think games like these would sell since they're just as available on Nintendo's end to provide but many gamers could've easily missed out on them because of their original availability.  

[IceCold]

Quote
Originally posted by: JonLeung

I'm sure they've got analysts working at Nintendo on this.  If they charge little, then more people will buy.  If they increase it, less people will buy, but maybe the profit is higher.  If they charge too much, they'll make a lot with each purchase, but the profit will go down because too few people are buying.  Ideally, they'll want to find the sweet spot - a price that the right amount of people will buy at for maximum profit

Yeah...linear programming. But you also have to take into account sales for actual Revolution games. If these games are too cheap then they're sure to be downloaded in droves, and it would seriously bite into the software tie-in ratio. Considering Nintendo has always been one to protect the software ratio (focusing on games, not other system functions), I can't imagine they would like that.

[ThePerm]

2 dollars is a perfect price for nes games as Ian said...2 in monetary value is twice the number of the user value. 5 for snes and 10 dollars for n64 games seems right. Remember you can buy psx games for 2-9 dollars now. They have to compete with that.

[Ian Sane]

"while Master Quest was for the N64 (or meant for it?) but came out for the GameCube (and only on the Collectors Edition Disc no less)."

I've heard this a few times and it's just bugging me.  Master Quest didn't come on the Collector's Edition Disc.  That had the two NES games and the two original versions of the N64 games.  The Master Quest was only available on the Ocarina of Time Bonus Disc that you could get by pre-ordering Wind Waker.  Sorry to go off topic.

I like the idea of getting discounts based on buying related games or different versions.  Hell I just like the idea of having different versions period.  Nintendo has talked about adding new content and such and I get nightmares of the various GBA ports with dumbed down difficulty and annoying voices.  I feel the original versions should always be available and considering there's no manufacturing cost there's no reason for them not to be.

I believe it's been announced that there's no region encoding so if you want the Japanese or European versions you can get them.  So at the very least Super Mario Bros: The Lost Levels for the NES should be available even if untranslated.

I wonder how this is going to work for the ESRB?  The rating system didn't come into place until around 1995 so there's a good ten years worth of unrated games.  Plus the ESRB ratings don't apply to games outside of North America so how will that work for the Japanese downloads?

[KDR_11k]

So at the very least Super Mario Bros: The Lost Levels for the NES should be available even if untranslated.

The question is why would you buy that if you could grab All Stars, get better graphics, the option to save and all the other SMB SNES games instead? Unless Nintendo makes it more than 4 times as expensive (or each "time" is more than 1-2$) that should be the option to go with.

I'd be more worried about the ratings in Germany TBH. They are legally enforced, obviously apply to online sales as well and unrated automatically means 18+. Except for the NES Classics series all NES and SNES games are unrated and I don't know what the fees are (the official testing regulation refer to the cost regulation for that and that isn't available online). On one hand a game that won't sell much and isn't sold for much might not be profitable to get rated, on the other hand that doesn't stop some cheapass publishers from making games that sell for 3 Euros and even get them into stores.

[JonLeung]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
I've heard this a few times and it's just bugging me.  Master Quest didn't come on the Collector's Edition Disc.  That had the two NES games and the two original versions of the N64 games.  The Master Quest was only available on the Ocarina of Time Bonus Disc that you could get by pre-ordering Wind Waker.  Sorry to go off topic.

Ah, you're very right.  I have both discs so I got them confused.  You got me there.

Quote
I wonder how this is going to work for the ESRB?  The rating system didn't come into place until around 1995 so there's a good ten years worth of unrated games.  Plus the ESRB ratings don't apply to games outside of North America so how will that work for the Japanese downloads?

Now this is where I can be more specific.  It was 1994!  (Okay, you said "around 1995".)  For some reason I remember Donkey Kong Country being one of the very first Nintendo-developed games (if not the first) to have a rating, and it was K-A (Kids To Adults) which was replaced by an E later.  I remember in a game store a mother not reading the rating (though I'll let that slide since they were new) and asking if Donkey Kong Country was violent, since apparently she didn't want her kid playing Street Fighter II.  From what I've seen of Donkey Kong: Jungle Beat (I think the first to have E10+), DK does get pretty brutal, but a platformer like DKC?  Hah!

Okay, I'm going off topic here, kinda.  So yeah, about the ratings...

From what I hear it's a process on the part of the developer, to submit the portions of the game to the ESRB, probably general gameplay and especially any scenes that might be questionable.  The ESRB would have to enforce something somehow or do something different.  Can they really ask companies to go over all their old games again and screen for content?

I don't remember if it was actually confirmed that Japanese games would be available (since we're not even sure what North American games would be)...if it was, I'd like to see the source again...

I was GOING to say that the ESRB could assume that all older games (foreign or not) are E but then I realized what a bad assumption that would be.  It's true that for older games you're unlikely to have descriptors like "realistic violence" but there are still some games where brutality and gore is evident.  Even in North America series like Splatterhouse probably should've had a warning if it didn't already.  Some of the fighting games that were popular before the ESRB came into place could've easily been at least T.  Cultural takes on what is acceptible probably affect ratings, too.  Notice how in Street Fighter Alpha 3, Sakura's brother (the Eternal Challenge art book says it's her brother, anyway) is playing a video game by holding a controller in his lap and moving his hands rapidly.  Look at the Japanese version.  He's playing with a "joystick", all right, but he's not playing a game...o_0  How did they get away with this originally, or do the Japanese just not care?  Which is weird because DOA:XBV is 18+ in Japan.  

[vudu]

Quote
I'd be more worried about the ratings in Germany TBH. They are legally enforced, obviously apply to online sales as well and unrated automatically means 18+. Except for the NES Classics series all NES and SNES games are unrated

Worst case scenario, you can send your flash card (or your entire Revolution) to a friend in a neighboring country and have him buy you a bunch of games and send it back for your enjoyment.

[ThePerm]

all stars plays a little different then the originals..

[IceCold]

Quote
I don't remember if it was actually confirmed that Japanese games would be available (since we're not even sure what North American games would be)...if it was, I'd like to see the source again...

Well, I think Merrick confirmed that there would be servers in different countries, so you could download the Japanese version if you wanted to. I can't source it, but it was in one of the many interviews in which he leaked Rev info.  

[KDR_11k]

vudu: I'd expect them to use a europe-wide service and nerf the thing for all of europe. They can't tell where you live and false negatives would cause hefty fines (age verification is mandatory).

[vudu]

Fine.  Send me the console and I'll hook you up.  You can pay me in German beer.

[animecyberrat]

I just wanted to addrees a couple issues I notcied while reading this entire discussion.


First piont that was brought up that went over looked was by the perm I believe. He asked about Sony mage Soft games, I too was curious about this because they actualy have some great games, along these same lines though I was thinkng of Psygnosis which is now a part of Sony last time I heard, and they had some kick ass games also that would suck if not abailable for DL.

Also what about acclaim or even Takara/SNK? Takara, a toy comapny which publsihed most SNK neo goe fighters recently merged with Capcom i Believe or was it Namco? Anyways not getting Samurai Showdown or Art of Fighting will be a real bummer also. I dont knwo if its been confirmed if 3rd party games will be available or not but if so it will suck to not be misisng some of the greats. I seriously will be affected if Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter II Turbo arent available. Of course Ill get over it cuz I have MK CD for Sega CD and SF2 Turbo for Genesis but thats besides th point.

Also I wanted to mention a couple things about the Virtual COnsole as a sellig piint, I already know five people I have told about tehrev that are die hard sony fans boys, I mean DIE HARD (out of thr five three of thrse guys own 2 or mroe Ps2 and all of them owna  psp) All five of tehse guys have told me that if teh rev is cheap enough they will get the system just for teh old games. two guys even stated they woudl ONLY but it for thr old games as tehir ps3 will be where they put thier new incarnations of NBA Live and Madden football and etc.

Also my parents, my sister who swicthed from Nitendo to SOny cuz she hated everythig n64 related, also mention she would get one if its cheap enough cuz of the retro games and thast it for her she will stick with Sony cuz she hates Nintendos new stuff. Also my parents have been talking about how cool it will be to get Dr mario and Tetris and Duck Hunt again cuz those are games they play, plus with teh new games for the controller I would consider them sold.

Then theres teh gusy I wrok with who already got xbox 360s and the only thing still attracting them to tehr ev is the Virtual Console. Like it or not that is goin to be *THE* selling point for thousands of people.

I myself prefer old games over most new ones and my game collection is primarily made up of Copliation disks. I currently own and play Midways arcade treasures 1 and 2 (I plan to get three after christams if not for) I have Namco Museum and plan on gettng teh 50 anniversary edition, Sonic Mega Collection and Gems Collection, Super Smash Bros Melee (I play this game solely for nostalgia I collect trophies like mad!), Mega Man Anniversary collection, (plan on gettoin X collection after christmas) and Zelda Collectors edition. Not to mention that I am currently playing five NES Classic series GBA game son my ds and am activley seeking teh rest of the series, so for me I will spend more time and money on teh revs virtual console feature also, espacialy since I have serius doubt about the controller and have been so dissapointed with most n64 and GC games I will maintain what is my comfort zone and stick to what I like.  

So beleive me when I say that the big selling point for the rev is the nostalgia, and its most likely the reason why Nintendo decided to included it because this is far cheaper and more profitabel for them than constantly re-releasing old games as GBA carts or Collectors disks.

Like i said liek it or not there4 is now stopping this form becomeing teh major selling point for tehrev, I just hope that Nintendo can get back the magic they lost in recent years

*flame shield ON!*

So take this all as you will but I say wait and see what happens.

Also No one has adressed HOW the games will be paid for, credit card/debit?, virtual points accumulated durring online play? Pre paid cards like napster uses? I am curiuos about this because it will make adifference to me and many of my friends. I read a couple theories but has Nintendo said anything official yet?

[JonLeung]

Oh, I agree with that and am not surprised by it.  Older gamers would remember Nintendo at their peak, so the virtual console will be a hit with them, the demographic that they are supposedly not hitting it off with too well.

They may buy a Revolution to be able to access all the old games alone, but don't you see?  That makes it easy for them to now at least consider getting Revolution games.  They can stop by the Revolution section of the game store and actually peruse it since they've already got one in their home.  Not like the GameCube where if they're happy with their PS2, they see no reason to get a GameCube and don't look at the GameCube section, and if they don't look at the GameCube section they never consider getting one.

I don't know how many people bought a PS2 for the DVD player functionality, but for those that did, it was probably a way for them to consider PS2 games where they might not have before.

If they Revolution is as revolutionary as they promise, then I have no doubt that the new games will at least be interesting enough to play and good enough to put money down on.  They wouldn't design an unorthodox controller to play old games.  If they can come up with a Super NES/N64 shell or some way to play those games without a problem then it's all good.

Nintendo is using the past to sell the future.  I like it.

[ThePerm]

at least 40 million people liked mario bros 1...if nintendo can get n64 or better numbers it will have at least 30 million consoles and 30 million x 2(good price point for old games)=60 million dollars...enough money to devolop tons of new Nintendo games

[ThePerm]

and lets say everybody buys at least 5 games.... 10x2x30 million...thats 600 million thats 6/10ths of what they make yearly

[nickmitch]

Wouldn't it be 300 million? because 2($ per game) x 5 (games per unit) x 30 million (units) = $300 million.
Still a pretty penny though.

[JonLeung]

I'll tell you right now - if they are really going to be $2, I'm going to buy A LOT more than just 5 games.  At that price, I'd also be collecting them, even if I have played them before or won't have time to play them.  I'm sure it's possible that I could go crazy and spend three week's worth of wages to get all of the officially released North American NES games - assuming all 700 or so get rereleased with this service.

While there will still be some costs, it'll likely be nothing like the original costs of developing the games, so with that out of the way, they would make quite a lot.  A much greater percentage of that is pure profit.