Topic: Franchaise This! Returning Games From The Past!

[Bill Aurion]

I was replying to this part:

(obviously it wouldn't be sidescrolling anymore)

Which to me doesn't sound like 2D gameplay...

[iMoron]

Quote
Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
I was replying to this part:

(obviously it wouldn't be sidescrolling anymore)

Which to me doesn't sound like 2D gameplay...

True...

It would be nice if there were more 3D looking sidescrolers... There aren't many! Making a sidescroller in to a a full 3D shooter would not make justice to the original sidescroler game unless thay find a way to stay true to the original... but that is hard thing to acomplish a 2D to 3D jump... even more so with 2D scrolling shooters.

Thoug... you understand what I meant... I was just trying to point that out to see if it would add posters to the thread.
.....................................................................................

Now... Any other games!?

[MrMojoRising]

Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
I don't think that's possible to do well, you need a lot of precision to play these games which is completely lost in 3d. Neo Contra sucked from what I heard.

If you asked me five years ago I would say that it's impossible to turn Metroid into 3D well...

[Spak-Spang]

True 2D games COULD be made using 3D graphics...but you lose detail and personality.

The only thing developers gain from making a 2D game with 3D graphics, is the ability to use some graphics tricks for special effects, and a cheaper/easier animation and character design process.  I guess that can go towards easier level design as well...but really good programs can do that with 2D level design its just harder.

What do you lose?  All the character and personality and charm of hand drawn sprites.

Best Example:

New Super Mario Brothers Vs. Super Princess Peach.

Based on graphics alone which would you rather play?
Based on graphics alone which has more detailed levels and characters?
Based on graphics alone which has more personality?

I think most will agree that Super Princess Peach definately wins the contest, whether you want to play the game more than the new Super Mario is a matter of opinion.

But you will say graphics have no barring on gameplay, so you shouldn't judge.

Actually graphics do have barring on game play.  Take Super Mario Brothers, and then the Super Mario Brothers from SUPER Mario Allstars.  Which would you rather play?  Sure some would argue the classic, but if you weren't judging the game on classic status you would choose the newer one.

Also imagine Super Mario World 2 with 3D polygon graphics and the whole 2D stetch look gone.  You won't get the same feel and satisfaction of the butt pound kicking up dust, or the combating the strange creatures in the make up.  The graphics were the building blocks for the entire feel of the game.

2D games should remain sprite based when at all possible.  I know this is becoming less and less likely, but until 3D graphics can capture the depth of character design sprites can I don't want to lose my 2D sprite based games.

[Artimus]

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Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
True 2D games COULD be made using 3D graphics...blah blah cutting post to take up less space blah blah...I don't want to lose my 2D sprite based games.

But you've left out one factor here: the 3D characters in NSMB perform 3D moves. You can't do a backflip in Princess Peach. You cannot do a ton of the stuff you can in NSMB. The entire reason 3D is used is that now a ton of the 3D Mario moves are in 3D. Peach looks fun, I enjoy the graphics, but judging on looks and gameplay I'd much rather play NSMB as it is an original gameplay platformer, with some pretty wicked graphics.

You're also looking at screenshots. 3D never looks as good as 2D in still images (I don't mean the next gen, but like DS vs. SNES). Why? Because sprites are just animated still images, naturally they'll look better in still form. In motion the complexity of animation is far more impressive on NSMB than Princess Peach.  

[KDR_11k]

MrMojoRising: Metroid is slower paced and requires less precision. Most imporantly it's not one-hit-and-you-die. When you have to dodge swarms of bullets and hit enemies all over the place 3d becomes a big problem. Dodging is harder because distances cannot be judged properly and 3d games on consoles are much slower paced than 2d games. You only see a part of your surroundings in 3d, in 2d everything that's relevant is visible and usually enemies you canb't see won't attack you, either.

But you've left out one factor here: the 3D characters in NSMB perform 3D moves. You can't do a backflip in Princess Peach.

You can do a backflip in Donkey Kong and Mario vs. Donkey Kong. Donkey Kong is plain old sprites, MvDK is sprites from 3d models.

[Pale]

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Actually graphics do have barring on game play. Take Super Mario Brothers, and then the Super Mario Brothers from SUPER Mario Allstars. Which would you rather play? Sure some would argue the classic, but if you weren't judging the game on classic status you would choose the newer one.

Anything matters when you are using a comparison between it and not it.

As for 3D graphics not having as much personality as 2D graphics...

[Spak-Spang]

Why can't I do backflipping on a 2D plane in Super Princess Peach.  As long as any animation or action takes place on a 2D plane, then I can do it in Super Princess Peach...they just didn't give her that power.

Now if you are saying that NSMB allows you to jump into the background or play on an 2.5D plane...then it would be harder to impliment with sprites, but NOT IMPOSSIBLE.  Remember Fatal Fury was a 2D sprite based game that played on 2 2D planes to supposedly add depth to the game...it really didn't do much.

I am not just judging by stills either.  I have seen movies from both games running, and Super Princess Peach looks superior.  There may not be as much animation going on in the background as NSMB, but the art direction goes along way and so does the animation that IS in Princess Peach that is really amazing.  

[Artimus]

NSMB has fantastic art direction.

You just don't like 3D is all. That doesn't de facto make 2D better.

[Spak-Spang]

Pale:

Your screenshot you provided is nice.  However, personality and character I do not really feel.  Great detail and I know the animation from the dodge move is pretty cool and funny.

But I don't actually feel the move when I dodge in Smash Brothers.  I don't know if it makes sense...but when I play Super Mario World, I feel the timing and the balance of the cape when I play...and the crash and shake of the ground when I dive bomb into it.  

Better examples you could have shown would be:

Mario 64 (him crashing into wall with stars)
Viewtiful Joe (though that game is mostly cool gameplay and I would argue personality in the game is lacking.)

[Bill Aurion]

Whoa, since when can we direct-link pics into the thread?  Shocked, I am! (Edit: Two minutes later, I find the topic!)

Back on topic, I don't see how "character" has anything to do with 2D and 3D...They both are able to do such within the power of the developer...It all just boils down to artistic direction, where it's much more prominent in 2D games...  

[vudu]

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Originally posted by: Pale
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Congrats on being the first person to post a stupid picture in a thread outside the thread introducing this new-found ability.

[MrMojoRising]

Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
MrMojoRising: Metroid is slower paced and requires less precision. Most imporantly it's not one-hit-and-you-die. When you have to dodge swarms of bullets and hit enemies all over the place 3d becomes a big problem. Dodging is harder because distances cannot be judged properly and 3d games on consoles are much slower paced than 2d games. You only see a part of your surroundings in 3d, in 2d everything that's relevant is visible and usually enemies you canb't see won't attack you, either.

I'm not saying it'd be easy or is likely, all I'm saying is that if it was somehow done (and done well) that it would be cool.

[Spak-Spang]

Just to clear the record.

I have nothing against Super Mario Brothers DS.  In fact, I am very excited about the game and I am looking forward to it.  I also think it is graphically appealing.  I chose those two games to compare because they are going to be similar gameplay, 2D side scrolling games, that use different art styles.

I am also not saying it is IMPOSSIBLE to give character and personality in 3D characters...I am saying it is harder than it is with sprites.  When you are actually hand drawn images instead of polygons to create an image then you are able to easily but more character within the art.

As well, I was making a point that IF a game is going to be 2D if at all possible it should remain sprite based instead of moving towards 3D models.  

Its a personal preference YES.  But at the same time, do we really want that style to disappear because it became obsolete and too expensive to do compared to rendering 3D models?

[iMoron]

!!!???

Ohhh... nooo... where's this thread going!

Ok... look, There will be some games that will lend thrmselves to 3D... and a woule lot that probably wont....

It wount be on our hands anyway, but in the hands of the developer/produser of the game who will deside what to do...

With that said, yes there are advantages and disadvantiges to graphics... BUT it is up to the artist avility to use whichever visual presentation to it fullest... or crapfest... And then the programers avility to make the graphical enviorment beliveble in its interaction or crap it as well in the proces... and that happens often...

Indeed some games should stay 2D... But maybe some could use 3D graphics and 2D gameplay, like Donkey Kong Country for example... Imaging them using full 3D and not just prerendered 3D... it is posible and if done corectlly you would not lose the personality as mush...

But it is esy to say and discuse when we are not involve in actual game development.... Wish I could get somewhere someday...

Now!

Forget about the graphics for once and post the names of forgotten games you would like to see on the Revolution

[Bill Aurion]

Donkey Kong Country uses prerendered sprites, so that doesn't really count as 3D...

Edit: Gah, you blew up that argument on the next line!

[KnowsNothing]

Oh hay, I hear Donkey Kong Jungle Beat is quilifies as an example of something someone said at one point in this thread.

But I know what Spak means, Super Princess Peach is much more warm and inviting than NSBM.

[Pale]

I need Balloon Fight, Wrecking Crew, and Ice Climber.

I'm not sure how to take them into the current gen or use the Rev controller, but I'm not getting paid to figure that out.  ^^


Also...
I personally think that Donkey Kong Country and Mario vs. Donkey Kong DO count as 3D graphics where this argument is concerned...  I mean, they look the same as 3D renders even if they are just sprites.