Topic: G4 Interview with Iwata Reveals New Details

[ruby_onix]

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I never said a trigger was out of the question. I was just making a point. Anyway, I think two triggers on a design like that might be too awkward (though I'm not certain without trying).

Actually, by the triggers I meant that I'd go one step beyond the photoshop which I posted (which isn't mine, BTW), and that I'd add another set of triggers, to duplicate the function of that photoshop's Z1 and Z2 when you're holding it sideways, and that they should be in the SNES-style "L&R" positions, although they should be inset, so that they don't get in the way when you're holding the controller in the standard vertical position.


My want list for improvements to the Rev controller:

- Split the "B" trigger into two triggers that match the triggers on the nunchuck.

- Replace the big "A" button with four smaller A/B/X/Y (uppercase) buttons.

- Replace the lower a&b or x&y or whatever Nintendo is calling them today buttons with four a/b/x/y (lowercase and sideways) buttons.

- Two new triggers on the side of the unit (named the same as the "B" triggers, but lowercase).

That's it. Now you don't need a shell/skin for Virtual Console NES or SNES games anymore (Genesis and N64 would still require some form of six-button shell), and with the addition of the nunchuck, the Rev controller can do anything the GameCube or even PS3 controller can do (tilt control would have to do to replace the second analog).

If that's too complicated for non-gamers, ditch the whole "sideways" gimmick. That will cut half the buttons off the controller. And then you're left with one extra face button (two moved buttons), and one extra trigger.

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Are you sure about the analog thing, or is that something you just came up with out of nowhere? Because it does sound believable, but I hadn't heard that before.

Unless I misheard, Iwata said it in the interview.

IIRC, he said that he brought the controller around to Western developers, and that they were ho-hum on the entire idea. And then Nintendo came up with the idea of the analog nunchuck attachment, showed it off, and suddenly they were all "Okay, now we've got something to work with! This is awesome. With this could make a tremendous First Person Shooter." Perhaps I'm leaping a bit.

[Mario]

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My want list for improvements to the Rev controller:

- Split the "B" trigger into two triggers that match the triggers on the nunchuck.

- Replace the big "A" button with four smaller A/B/X/Y (uppercase) buttons.

- Replace the lower a&b or x&y or whatever Nintendo is calling them today buttons with four a/b/x/y (lowercase and sideways) buttons.

- Two new triggers on the side of the unit (named the same as the "B" triggers, but lowercase).

That's it. Now you don't need a shell/skin for Virtual Console NES or SNES games anymore (Genesis and N64 would still require some form of six-button shell), and with the addition of the nunchuck, the Rev controller can do anything the GameCube or even PS3 controller can do (tilt control would have to do to replace the second analog).

All that really does is let you play SNES games on it (you can already play NES), which I think is a bit unesessary adding all that. TWO sets of 4 buttons? Why?

[mantidor]

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Originally posted by: ruby_onix
IIRC, he said that he brought the controller around to Western developers, and that they were ho-hum on the entire idea. And then Nintendo came up with the idea of the analog nunchuck attachment, showed it off, and suddenly they were all "Okay, now we've got something to work with! This is awesome. With this could make a tremendous First Person Shooter." Perhaps I'm leaping a bit.

yea leaping you are it was more like western developers didnt "get it" until the nunchuk was shown. You know, first reactions are always "WTF?"  

[trip1eX]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane


The Rev controller's big flaw is that it removes existing functionality.  They just went from seven buttons to TWO.  

?

Come on now.  There are two buttons on the left controller.  There's the big A button on the remote along with the trigger.  That's 4.  YOu also have a select and a start button.  So that's 1 extra button than before.  That's 5.  Plus lower on the remote is a&b or x&y.  That's 7.   Sure those are out of the way but they can be used for functions like switching to a map or something.

Then of course you utterly and completely ignore the additional functionality built into the Revolution controller.  The gryo stuff can map functions to hand gestures.   The number of buttons here is beyond 7 in and of itself.  The Revolution can also sense how close/far the controller is from the TV.  

So I really wish people wouldn't be so narrow minded.  Quit playing games for awhile and look around.  There's a whole world out there.  
 

[Ian Sane]

"I know what you mean but they CAN'T put too many buttons on it, or it'll scare off their new audience."

And thus we come full circle to my biggest concern: comprimising functionality for non-gamers.  I don't consider "we need to remove stuff to appeal to non-gamers" as a valid reason for "breaking" a good controller design.  I'm concerned that Nintendo is focusing too much on non-gamers and traditional gamers are going to get the short end of the stick.  I'd say removing buttons just to appeal to non-gamers is a pretty good example of what I'm talking about.

"The gryo stuff can map functions to hand gestures."

Hand gestures are inaccurate and have a huge margin of error.  You think you're tilting left and the controller thinks you're moving left and does the wrong thing.  Buttons have a very small margin of error to them.  You push the button and it works unless the game is a buggy piece of crap.  You take a complex game that uses all of the buttons on the Cube controller and map it to the remote with hand gestures replacing buttons and after ten minutes of fighting with the controls and dying because the game misinterpreted your hand movement and you'll be smashing the remote against the wall.  The remote will work fine for arcade style games like the ideas presented in the trailer.  But if you tried to play Pikmin 2 on it Grubdogs would be just snacking on you.  Sometimes buttons and analog sticks (which have resistance unlike motion control) just work better.  There's a reason why the mouse accompanies the keyboard and hasn't outright replaced it.

[mantidor]

Im sure game designers wont make inacurate or confusing mouse gestures, Ian, specially for important actions. And its not like every single action will be amouse gestures, there are SEVEN buttons to choose from  not even including select and start or the D pad. it actually has more buttons than the GC, and it has this wand that sense 3D space in a very accurate way according to reports, and a damn analog why the hell will "traditional" gamers need more?

[Ian Sane]

"there are SEVEN buttons to choose from"

No there isn't.  Select doesn't count and neither do the other A & B buttons.  Those are out of the way and thus are useless for action purposes.  Select is an administrative button and the other A & B buttons are for holding the remote side ways.  It's at best a four button controller with the analog attachment.  If it's a seven button controller then it's the most unergonomic thing ever built.

If you want to get technical the N64 had TEN buttons.  But no one would count start nor would they count Z & L as seperate buttons on that controller.

[mantidor]

The select button can work fine for games, you couldnt been more closed-minded that saying that the select button must only be used for "administrative" purposes, specially if you now have a wand that can point at any point of the screen with a twist of your hand, thus making the use of a select button to surf menus completly obsolete. That button is called "select" only because of the virtual console idea. In fact they used that button to do morph ball in the MP2 demo with the remote, and everyone said it was smooth and precise and didnt felt awkward while doing it.

Do yourself a favor and pick a controller and realize how easy is to access all buttons with your tumb, "It wont allow for quick action" youll say, then they wont put quick actions to those buttons at the bottom! only things like the map! simple!

The only people who need 8+buttons are fighters freaks, and none of the next gen consoles will offer them what they want anyway.

[Don'tHate742]

Good points Ian.

I can't defend Nintendo's choice of two buttons, because it is stupid. I made a mock-up a while ago that featured as many buttons as the GC controller (and even more triggers), so defending Nintendo would also be hypocritical.

Nintendo has a dilemma opun them. I made an entire thread about this before. Simplicity vs. Functionality. You CAN"T have both. Even with a gyro controller, you can't have it.

Trying to map MPrime to the NRC + Nunchuck controller, resulted in using a downward thrust motion to morph Samus into a ball. Is that somehow more simplistic? Is that even more fun? The answer is a resounding no.

The Rev Needs more buttons for games that DO use the gyroscopic function. I suggest they put a button to the left and right of the huge "A" button (in the shape of kidney beans, and raised up) and add a second trigger. The simple...get it SIMPLE addition of three buttons, solves every concievable problem even Ian could come up with. Something like this

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CLicky

Does the controller look simple? Yes. Do you have to look down to find the buttons on either side of the "A"? No.  

[Ian Sane]

"I suggest they put a button to the left and right of the huge "A" button (in the shape of kidney beans, and raised up) and add a second trigger. The simple...get it SIMPLE addition of three buttons, solves every concievable problem even Ian could come up with."

That would work really well.  If Nintendo does something like that then my concerns over the controller would drop significantly.  I don't see why they can't have the buttons and functionality of today's consoles with the motion control and possibly even in the form of a remote.  The Cube face button layout for example would transfer to where the A button is right now perfectly.  I'm not a huge fan of that layout but the buttons would be there and they would be easy for everyone to reach without looking.  

[PaLaDiN]

"And thus we come full circle to my biggest concern: comprimising functionality for non-gamers. I don't consider "we need to remove stuff to appeal to non-gamers" as a valid reason for "breaking" a good controller design. I'm concerned that Nintendo is focusing too much on non-gamers and traditional gamers are going to get the short end of the stick. I'd say removing buttons just to appeal to non-gamers is a pretty good example of what I'm talking about."

Is that right Ian? I'm figuring people who stopped playing after the NES would like this controller. They're more traditional than you, you know. Let's not give in to elitism here, lest it come full circle to bite us.

[mantidor]

"Trying to map MPrime to the NRC + Nunchuck controller, resulted in using a downward thrust motion to morph Samus into a ball. Is that somehow more simplistic? Is that even more fun? The answer is a resounding no."

what? I read otherwise, they used the select button in one of the hands on impressions. It was kind of funny you saying that pushing a button is fun and waving a remote isnt, that isnt exactly what makes a metroid game fun for me.

[ShyGuy]

It's not like every single button is an action button, most games use some of the primary buttons for secondary function.

I can't think of any games that require 7 action buttons. The closest is Street Fighter with 6 buttons, but that's what the shell is for.

Hmm I think I'll make a thread in the Rev forum that discusses mapping existing games to the NRC

[Mario]

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Nintendo has a dilemma opun them. I made an entire thread about this before. Simplicity vs. Functionality. You CAN"T have both. Even with a gyro controller, you can't have it.

How the hell isn't the remote functional?

There will also be a traditional controller people, stop forgetting! Even if you have to buy it seperately, it will STILL be cheaper to buy a Rev + Controller than a Xbox 360 or PS3.

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Trying to map MPrime to the NRC + Nunchuck controller, resulted in using a downward thrust motion to morph Samus into a ball. Is that somehow more simplistic? Is that even more fun? The answer is a resounding no.

How do you know? Everyone who played it said it worked great. Also, that was just MP2:Echoes redone, the new Metroid Prime will obviously be mapped around the new controller.

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The Rev Needs more buttons for games that DO use the gyroscopic function. I suggest they put a button to the left and right of the huge "A" button (in the shape of kidney beans, and raised up) and add a second trigger. The simple...get it SIMPLE addition of three buttons, solves every concievable problem even Ian could come up with. Something like this

Nope, too complicated looking, people are running away from it already.

The gyro/motion sensor things in the controller are INCREDIBLY functional and complex, but it doesn't LOOK like it is, which is exactly the point they have achieved! What's the problem again?  

[Ian Sane]

"Even if you have to buy it seperately, it will STILL be cheaper to buy a Rev + Controller than a Xbox 360 or PS3."

If you have to buy it seperately then no games will ever use it because third parties typically don't design games to use accessories if the entire userbase doesn't have them.  Until we have SEEN the shell and have confirmation that it will be included with every controller it might as well not exist.

"Nope, too complicated looking, people are running away from it already."

What people?  I'm sorry but if more than two buttons scares you then games just aren't for you.  Hell PHONES aren't even for you or bank machines or microwaves or anything with even a number pad on it.  Plus I think a controller that scares away the proven gaming market is a lot more serious then a controller that scares away an unproven non-gamer market that may or may not even care about the Rev regardless of what Nintendo releases.

I thought the whole point of going with a remote was that in theory it's a design everyone is comfortable with (which I think is poor logic anyway since most non-gamers I meet aren't comfortable with TV remotes either) and TV remotes are COVERED in buttons.  Having more than two buttons isn't going to scare anyone way unless they're total "freaked of technology" types and those people are NEVER going to play games no matter what.

[Avinash_Tyagi]

First off those two mockups are hideous  

Secondly, the key aspect of this controller is to make things more natural, more intuitive, whats more instinctual, moving your wrist or pressing a bunch of buttons?

Yes the control loses some buttons, but the number of buttons on the controllers were going overboard, for some fighting games you had to press three or more buttons at the same time just to do a kick or a punch, that's too much, this is much more natural, and therefore not only more accessible but also more enjoyable.

[Ian Sane]

"whats more instinctual, moving your wrist or pressing a bunch of buttons?"

When it comes to something you're viewing on a screen I'd say buttons.  Buttons are what we use for computers and televisions which are easily the top two "screen" related devices there are.  If you made a TV where you switched channels by moving the TV remote people would laugh in your face.  Buttons are what's expected.

Motion control makes sense for virtual reality but we're not there yet.  You swing a baseball bat in real life but the bat has weight to it and when you hit the ball there's resistance.  Motion control is largely like playing make believe where you're pretending you're doing something.  It's not instinctive to react to what's not really there and that's largely what motion control is.

[vudu]

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Originally posted by: Artimus
[W]hen's the last time you heard [Nintendo's] developers say they made a game as quick and cheap as possible? I bet you could find a few people at EA who might say that.

I don't mean to split hairs here, but Nintendo has been touting that the two Brain Training games took a team of 11 people 4 months to complete and cost next to nothing.  It's their way of showing that a great concept can sell just as many games/systems (and for a higher profit margin) as a huge team with an unfathomable budget.  

[Avinash_Tyagi]

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You swing a baseball bat in real life but the bat has weight to it and when you hit the ball there's resistance. Motion control is largely like playing make believe where you're pretending you're doing something. It's not instinctive to react to what's not really there and that's largely what motion control is.

But the revo controller has weight so its not quite the same as motion control.

And actually I'd like a controller that changed channels and volume by moving it. (it would be pretty cool )

[Bill Aurion]

This is so freaking stupid, and Ian is just pulling stuff out of his ass...We have HANDS-ON reports from those that played the game demos with the Revmote and they ALL said it was very natural to use...Now who are we going to believe...Ian or people who have actually used the controller?

And I'd like to add one more thing...Is it more instinctive to pretend swinging at a ball or pressing a button to swing at a ball?  I mean COME ON!  If I went around and asked people which they would rather do in a videogame, make a swinging motion or press a button to perform the same move, I can guarantee they'd choose the swinging motion since it's a movement that's natural and more akin to the actual thing...Stop making non-arguments, please...

[Ian Sane]

"If I went around and asked people which they would rather do in a videogame, make a swinging motion or press a button to perform the same move, I can guarantee they'd choose the swinging motion since it's a movement that's natural and more akin to the actual thing"

They would prefer it until they played an entire baseball game by themselves and their arms felt like they were going to fall off.  Imagine batting for an entire game for an entire team.  That would put a lot of strain on your shoulders.  You don't get tired by pushing buttons.  Plus it's kind of a waste to have to actually be good at baseball in order to do well.  Ideally you would have to be a good hitter in real life wouldn't you?  Otherwise your form would be the sh!ts and you would strike out the whole time.

I think a fair bit of people at first would think that motion control would be more natural but after playing with it for a while would go back to using a controller.  Let's see what the impressions are from someone after beating an entire 20 hour+ game and after a year of playing with it.  I want to see someone beat the Boostball Guardian with this new Metroid Prime 2 control method.  I want to know what the impressions are like after the "wow this is so neato" feeling has worn off.  Of course it's going to be exciting to use the first time you try it out.  But this is FIVE YEARS of playing games like this.  That's way different.  Is the initial novelty factor going to last?  I've had arcade games that I LOVED and then I've later rented the home version and have gotten bored out of my skull after two hours of it.

Anyway the arguement earlier on was that there are some things that buttons work better for and the Rev controller is short on them when it realistically doesn't have to be.  It's a needless restriction and if the only justification for it is that it will be less scary for non-gamers then my whole concern of Nintendo focusing too much on non-gamers at the expense of existing gamers is valid.

[ShyGuy]

Actually, Instinct is something that is inborn, pushing a button is learned behavior, liked reading. Where as we are born with the instinct to move our hands to manipulate something.

[denjet78]

I'm amused that people still cannot see that this controller is way more functional than anything else out there, and even has the same number of buttons on it. If Nintendo broke up the digital pad into 4 seperate buttons, would that make more sense?

So you have the digital pad (4 buttons), A and B (two more), and Select and Start (another 2) which if you've ever played an NES game you know that they were used for TONS of other things and not just selecting and starting. That's 6 buttons just on the main controller. Add in the add-on and you have two more triggers, an anologue stick AND the 3D space detection of the remote.

Let's see... 8 buttons plus anologue and 3D space. Now which controller is more functional?

And anyone who wants to whine about how the digital pad can only be used for movement... Are you really going to want to use a digital pad for movement when you have anologue AND 3D space? It's like how digital pads are used with games today: THEY'RE NOT! The only game I remember playing that actually used the digital pad on the GC controller was MP, and it was only used to select... was it visors? I can't remember off the top of my head. And please, no whining about fighting games. They're bitchy enough as it is with wanting more and more buttons. Why no one hasn't just come out with a keyboard with a digital pad attached to it already I'll never know.

This controller has all the functionallity and more, without all the complication. Looking back at older video games systems before Nintendo standardized the controller, they were COVERED in buttons and some even had anologue control. Yet a simple little dinky controller with two action buttons, start and select, and a digital cross pad beat them all out.

Why do you think that is?

Here's where I'm expeciting arguments about the video game market, hardware, and business practices, which really are all valid arguments. This is merely a simplification so things don't get too complicated.

And Ian, you mentioned that you'd be happy if Nintendo had just created a traditional controller with 3D space detection in it? Have you even thought about how limiting it would be to try and play with a traditional controller with 3D space? It's just not possible. You can whine about the remote shape but a broken controller is the only way this could be done, and done right. Think about it for a while... You're going to be moving both hands while trying to control the game at the same time. Not only is your range of motion limited but if you try to use the anologue stick you're going to find yourself in a lot of trouble really quick. It just doesn't work when you find yourself having to move the controller around at any level of speed and/or precision while still keeping good control with the stick.

[denjet78]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
They would prefer it until they played an entire baseball game by themselves and their arms felt like they were going to fall off.  Imagine batting for an entire game for an entire team.  That would put a lot of strain on your shoulders.  You don't get tired by pushing buttons.  Plus it's kind of a waste to have to actually be good at baseball in order to do well.  Ideally you would have to be a good hitter in real life wouldn't you?  Otherwise your form would be the sh!ts and you would strike out the whole time.

Now that's an argument about the developers themselves. If they're still going to dumb down games for everyone to access them or if they're going to create very elite software that only the best gamers can use. It's already well know that the controller will work VERY well with only a small jerk of the wrist. That's no more harmfull than holding onto a controller and puching buttons. Keyboards can wreak all kinds of havok on your hand and wrists, as can a controller. Remember "Nintendoitis"? We really don't know what this type of control is going to do over a long period of time but we already do know what sitting still and pushing a bunch of buttons for hours at a time day after day can do.

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Anyway the arguement earlier on was that there are some things that buttons work better for and the Rev controller is short on them when it realistically doesn't have to be.  It's a needless restriction and if the only justification for it is that it will be less scary for non-gamers then my whole concern of Nintendo focusing too much on non-gamers at the expense of existing gamers is valid.

Actually, all you can say is that they're not marketing at YOU. If you asked me, this system is being built from the ground up for ME, and I played video games religiously during the 8 and 16bit generations. Not much recently though as, well, today's games suck for the most part. I wasn't even going to pick up a system this generation. Now I will. And for two reasons: 1. Virtual Console, 2. This is new, this is interesting, and by god, it's going to be fun!

Games just aren't... fun anymore. They feel too much like work, having to learn all the controls and button combinations and worst of all, they're all mirror images of one another with different graphics. UGH! I mean, why does everyone HATE the collection 3D platformer when Mario 64 is still considered one of the best video games ever created? Because no one's coming up with anything NEW. The Rev controller will breed new. It can't do anything else. Developers don't want to come up with new ideas because they're afraid it won't sell and cut into their profit margins? Well, Nintendo just changed the rule book. You think new or you die. I only wish this would have been possible for the GC.

[Don'tHate742]

God...you people don't realize how great I think the NRC is. You don't realize how great Ian thinks it is either.

It's funny how you guys totally turned your back to this idea of a broken controller with gyros when I first brought it up, but now that Nintendo is all over it, so are you. Fanboyism?

The controller is great, but it is LIMITING. That is my basic concern. Select and start AREN"T playable action buttons. They are not placed in an ergonomic way for you to press them many a time during gameplay. Also, telling me that the D-pad is essentially 4 buttons is a wasted effort. The D-pad could be used to switch between items ala Zelda, but in NO way could it be used as an action button. I can see problems with pressing down or left in rapid succession while swing your arm/wrist every which way. There is too much room for error where accuracy is needed. Maybe if it were like a PS2 D-pad, where it actually is 4 different buttons.

You see, buttons are responsive, and they are also very distinct. No amount of hand gestures or d-pads can ever take that away. That's why I propose there be two more buttons on the face of the remote (call them X/Y). That would give the NRC + nunchuck attachment one less button than the GC controller. But th Z-button wasn't important anyway.

Is it really neccessary to have a huge lone "A" button for the sole purpose of attracting new-gamers? It's wasted space. Plus, you can attract new-gamers in another fashion. Sure simplicity is great, but how about a better looking controller? Something sleek and smooth with attractive looking buttons that glow and such. Something that doesn't look like a toy. Something that looks like electronic equipment akin to a dvd-player. Wouldn't that attract people who don't play games?

You could make those two extra face buttons have a crescent moon shape and put them on either side of the "A." Give them the same effect of transparency the A has, and maybe a light that makes the actually X and Y letters glow blue.

Is that scary? I can garuntee people would marvel at such a controller, and you know what? It provides even more functionality...what's wrong with that?!