Topic: Smash bros!!!

[Spak-Spang]

Button Smashers can survive in Smash Brothers in 3-4 person games, because there is just too much chaos for the experienced player to really shine.

1-2 player games, yeah the Experienced player will always win, but Smash Brothers really shines as a 3-4 person experience and not the 2 player.

Button Smashers seemed to be able to do better and better with 3D fighters instead of 2D fighers.  

I think partial reasons is the damage levels of these games slowly began to increase where it was possible to beat somebody by hitting them 5 times with the right moves.

Before that time 2D games had less damaging moves and special moves...often resulting in battles going back and forth, and ending with time out.

[Rancid Planet]

You see? THIS is where the Nintendo Revolution's controller is going to be a discussion BATTLE GROUND (which means super happy fun time on the forums). When in concerens genres that gamers are REALLY attached to. Fighters and sports games mostly.

Me? I don't care. I don't really like games like that anyway. I like oddball games for the most part so the Rev controller will rarely be in question so far as I'm concerned. But I do feel that SSBM can benefit from the Rev's controller in many ways. It being a fighter of a different color and all.

But just so long as they make TWO of them for the Rev...

...

...

Bring it on.

heh

[Pale]

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Originally posted by: zakkiel

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Seriously guys, you need to realize that this may very well be a revolution like the analog stick was, but not every game uses or can be improved by an analog stick.

It must suck to be facing such disappointment when the Revolution comes out, I guess. Oh, and yarr, matey, why shouldn't precision require skill to achieve, rather than smacking a button?

You're the one that doesn't understand.  I love the controller.  I just no for a fact that the motion sensing aspects of it will NOT be the main aspects of SB design.  The game is Iwata's baby.  Please try to understand my tournament vs. for fun discussion.  At the tournment level, SB is all about really rapid button pushes and dodge combinations.  This would not be possible when using hand gestures to control the movement or attacks.  Nintendo is not stupid enough to take the tournment out of one of their only tournament games.

It could be just as fun in the short term, but the hard core smash bros. players... the ones that make the game as popular as it is, would be turned off solely because it can not offer the depth.

I'm obviously arguing my point like all of you are.  I don't know if I've made a good argument but you all sure as heck haven't...

Pop smash brothers in once (if you are an experienced player) and play for a while.  Notice your left thumb movements?  Try and translate that to moving your hand.  It wouldn't get bast the testing phase because people wouldn't have the wrist stamina.

Also, as soon as the control scheme is announced I'm bumping this thread so we can see who is wrong.  I don't think it will be me.  

[Artimus]

Iwata's baby...Iwata loves the controller...of course it will use it.

The simple fact is that Nintendo likes this controller. They'll use it for their main games.

[Pale]

/sigh whatever...

That is not a simple fact.   The simple fact is....

Nintendo likes the controller.  They'll use it for games that will benefit from it.

[zakkiel]

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You're the one that doesn't understand.

That kind of implies I was saying that you don't understand something, which I don't recall doing.

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I just no for a fact that the motion sensing aspects of it will NOT be the main aspects of SB design. The game is Iwata's baby.

So is the controller. He would never, ever have adopted this design for the Revolution if he didn't plan to make it a centerpiece of SSB gameplay. What you "no for a fact" doesn't matter, I'm afraid.

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t the tournment level, SB is all about really rapid button pushes and dodge combinations.

Not anymore. Adapt or perish, that's the law of nature operating here.

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I don't know if I've made a good argument

No, you're just repeating your statement that precision would be impossible with the NRC. That's not an argument.

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but you all sure as heck haven't...

What? That Nintendo won't release its most popular title without using the controller that defines its new system? That argument makes itself, Pale, and your only counterargument is "I can't imagine how you could get precision out of their new controller." That says more about your imagination than it does about Nintendo's intentions. I honestly believe if it came down to it that they would throw out SSB as a tournament game before they would risk the negative publicity of "even NINTENDO doesn't really use its own controller when it counts. Gimmick!" That would be the end of the console.

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Pop smash brothers in once (if you are an experienced player) and play for a while. Notice your left thumb movements? Try and translate that to moving your hand.

In a world in which the NRC preceded the joystick, I'm sure you would be saying exactly the same thing about translating from wrist to thumb movements. I can't for the life of me imagine what this thought experiment is supposed to prove. We're trying to compare two things, one of which exists entirely in our imagination and the other of which we've been familiar with for years. As an added bonus, we have no idea how closely our imagination corresponds to the reality Nintendo intends. Personally, comparing the internet speculation on what the new controller might be (ranging from "stupid" to "unbelievably asinine) with what Nintendo came up with, I don't see the point in speculating on their NRC SSB control scheme at all. For one thing, there's more yet to be revealed about the console itself.  

[Pale]

Oh know... I've been quote raped... this argument is definately on the internet...


I will now sum up what I have been trying to say and throw the ball back in your court.

1.  Nintendo will not force motion sensing into every game unless it can benefit from it.
2.  I do not believe, and no one has shown otherwise, that SB will benefit from motion sensing control in place of the original scheme.  I am aware I am repeating myself, but why stop if no one can show me otherwise.  You will lose precision if you rely on motion controls.  In order to have the depth of control the current Smash Brothers has, a wide range of movements will be required.  This will result in flailing arms which is not a good thing in a game like this.  If you limit flailing arms, you limit the controls, thus downgrading from the already proven scheme.  All of this points to how Smash Brothers will not benefit from motion control.

Now, if you want me to start thinking otherwise, stop using the argument that it will be used because Nintendo can, and start showing me how smash brothers will benefit from it.  I am definately open to suggestions.

All of this said, I expect motion sensing to make an appearance in the game, but the standard nunchuck style controller will mimc the original controls exactly.  All motion sensing will do is add some new possibilities.

Now for my official prediction... rewording what I said above.  Smash Brothers will come out.  You will hold the controller with the analog nunchuck attachment.  A and B will be for attack and special attack just like the original.  Any direction on the d-pad will be for jump, just like the original.  Either shoulder button on the analog attachment will be for sheild/grapple, just like the original.  The analog stick will move you around and decide which version of attack you do, just like the original.  Motion sensing will add something new that I can't even predict at this point.  

[ShyGuy]

I think Smash bros is going to be a different game than its predecessors. Have you guys seen that Rag Doll Kung Fu video? I could see something like that working. http://ragdollkungfu.beasts.org/index.html

[Pale]

If Nintendo makes smash brothers a different gam ethan its predecessors, they might as well call it something different and let Melee live on in our hearts and dreams.  

Like I said before, I would probably like this "different" game, but I will be pissed if it marks the end of the smash brothers style of game.

[Artimus]

Yeah, if games control different than their predecssors they aren't really the same series.

You know, like Ocarina of Time, Mario 64, Metroid Prime...all of those are fake genre games. They're really just Bobo the Monkey in a Mario/Link/Samus suit!

[Bill Aurion]

Considering the "Smash Brothers style of game" is about having fun beating up your friends with your favorite Nintendo characters in familiar Nintendo environments, I don't think you should be all that disappointed  (Seriously, the game will utilize the remote, but don't expect Ninty to vastly change the system...)

[Pale]

Ok.. please don't argue semantics guys...  This is a fighter... not an adventure game....  controls ARE a fighter, at least for me, so it is a different game then.

I don't know why I'm catching so much flack for saying what I am saying... christ... you are arguing with a guy who loves Nintendo's business model and loves what they did with the controller... you are treating me like some guy who is starting a Nintendo is d00md thread when I'm actually just suggesting that I am confident Nintendo will not change the controls, rather add another layer.  I expect to still be moving my character with the joystick and punching with the a button.

It's also possible that I will be wrong...  But all of your arguments are based on the fact that the controller we know maybe 25% of the plans for will alter every single Nintendo first party title to the point that nothing is retained.  I doubt that.  Yeah, Shiggy said zelda will be different... that's cool... but has any of them come out and said it smash will be different? no...  calm yourselves and at least listen to my point of view.  If you read through the thread you will see I went back and forth several times and I have actually given this thing a lot of thought.  For trying to see both sides of the coin I'm getting flamed.  Whatever.

[Ian Sane]

I think Smash Bros would be better used as a big seller for the Rev's online capabilities rather than the remote.  The killer app for the remote should be something new, not just an existing design retooled into something that may or may not play better depending on opinion.

People want to play SSB online really badly.  So I think Nintendo should give people what they want: SSBM with more stuff and online play.  It's not very fair for them to not go online with the Cube and then when they finally do go online they mess around with all the games we wanted online to justify the design of their new controller.

If they want to use the remote to try new things that's fine but I think when it comes to existing multiplayer franchises that we want online they best keep things traditional for now.  Give us SSB online as we liked it and retool it into something we might not like later.

It's like when people ask for a Pokemon MMO.  Screw that.  I want the full 3D single player Pokemon RPG I should have got years ago first.  If they go online with SSB AND change the controls all around they're skipping a step.  There's a great game inbetween those steps that they would be denying us and that's the great game we've been asking for for years.

Hopefully they'll keep it traditional for now since they're doing that with Zelda.  We all wanted an epic Zelda with detailed graphics that weren't blocky like the N64 games.  Nintendo could have just given us Wind Waker and then gone on to whatever the hell Zelda is going to be like on the Rev.  But first they're giving us at least one more Zelda in the more traditional form, sort of like the ultimate Zelda game.  So maybe they'll do the same for this and give us the ultimate SSB before they change it into something else.

It just makes sense to push the old formula to its absolute limits before changing things around.

[Hostile Creation]

They're really not being that harsh, Pale.  They're just saying give HAL a chance and let's see what they come up with, because knowing HAL, it'll freakin' rock.
I can guarantee you that SSBRev will use the remote.  They're not going to release it using standard buttons because that'd be trodding on their whole philosophy with this system.  Will it be different from SSBM?  Of course it will!  I don't know how different, but it's silly to suggest renaming an installment of a franchise just because the controls differ.  The same applies to fighting games, especially SSB, which has so many subtle factors to it that control is in fact a relatively small factor by comparison.

And Ian, how is SSBM NOT the ultimate SSB game?  Online is not an answer, because online is a feature, not something to design a game around.  I'd say another SSBM game, just improved, would be redundant.  I mean it'd be awesome and I'd buy it, but still redundant.  SSBM had pretty much everything.

[Ian Sane]

"And Ian, how is SSBM NOT the ultimate SSB game?"

Because it's not online.  DUH!

I think that game is damn near perfect but I can't play it with you guys on the forum so there's still room to go.

"They're not going to release it using standard buttons because that'd be trodding on their whole philosophy with this system."

That's probably true but I'd rather they not "break" a great game just to try to sell a new controller.  Pale is right when he says that with fighters the controls ARE the game.  Ever played Capcom vs. SNK 2 with the GCism controls?  It is NOT the same game.  Same moves, same characters, same objective but it is not even close to the same thing.

Nintendo probably will use the remote but I sure as hell don't think they should.

"They're just saying give HAL a chance and let's see what they come up with, because knowing HAL, it'll freakin' rock."

Isn't this the same HAL that made Kirby Air Ride?  Their last attempt at "simplifying controls" for "non-gamers" doesn't exactly fill me with confidence regarding SSB.

[Professor Gnarly]

Maybe they could include a choice of either using the shell or the Rev. controller(or both?).  Of course that would only work if they did not drastically change the game.  

[IceCold]

I'll just chime in for a second. I'm not going to say which control scheme will be better, because realistically, we don't know how Nintendo will implement the motion sensitivity, if they do. No use speculating and arguing if we haven't played it.

I will say this; Nintendo is extremely proud. It's hard for me to see them using the shell instead of their new controller and selling point of the Rev for the sequel to the titles that sold the most on their previous two consoles. Even if ultimately it controls worse then it would have by using a shell (and I would hope it wouldn't), Nintendo probably will go with the remote. This is of course, assuming that it does in fact play better with the shell, but come on, this is one of Nintendo's flagship titles; they must have thought of a way to improve it using the interface.

It's kind of like why there are no first party titles on the Cube that use two discs - Nintendo just won't do that because it would tell everyone that they were wrong in choosing a smaller medium. So a Nintendo title on the Rev has a much better chance of using the remote; even SSBR.

And THIS is what Ian's so worried about. That for a game like this, it could control better with traditional controls, but Nintendo's pride won't let them use the shell. Personally, I trust Nintendo, and I don't think that they would do that; if it wasn't as intuitive with the remote, they wouldn't use it. But you never know..

[IceCold]

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But first they're giving us at least one more Zelda in the more traditional form, sort of like the ultimate Zelda game

Oh, come on now Ian..could you at least wait until you play Zelda Rev?

[KnowsNothing]

IceCold replaces Ian's use of "stubborn" and "stupid" with "pride" and all of a sudden he has a much more convincing argument.

Let this not be a comment of my opinion on this matter, this was only an observation.  Take from it what you will

[Hostile Creation]

Did you ever play Kirby Air Ride?
Besides, it's also the HAL that made Earthbound, SSBM, Kirby's Dreamland, etc.  Saying SSBRev will suck because of Kirby Air Ride is like saying Schindler's List sucks because Spielberg made AI.

I don't think there's a point in releasing essentially the same game just so it can have online.  I'd like to play SSB with you guys, of course, but that's why I'm hoping this one will kick ass.  If it doesn't, you are totally right about everything.

Capcom vs SNK didn't work because it was trying to use a control scheme that was made for another controller, one more appropriate for fighters.  This is a completely different control scheme, so a game based around a new system of control has the potential to be just as good, if not better, than its predecessors.

And I'm not sure I can say anymore, without having seen the game in action.

[Pale]

I want to make it clear that I'm not proposing it will use the shell...  I'm just proposing that motion sensing should not be used for either attacks or moving... and I'm also saying that the nunchuck style of controls would work find and still be the new controller which I think is super cool.  Motion sensing is only part of it and won't be used in every single game released for the system.

[Ian Sane]

"Oh, come on now Ian..could you at least wait until you play Zelda Rev?"

I'm basing that on Miyamoto saying that Twilight Princess will be the last Zelda as we know it or something to that effect.  I don't remember the exact quote but he hinted on change.  Plus there's that "pull the lever" comment he made way, way back.

[zakkiel]

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I've been quote raped

No, quote raping would be me taking statements like

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his argument is definately on the internet

and

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Also, as soon as the control scheme is announced I'm bumping this thread so we can see who is wrong. I don't think it will be me.

and making nasty little allusions to discovering an accidental Yogi Berra in the making. Which would be silly, because this is a game forum on the internet and what you say here reflects some absurdly small segment of your personality and ability in RL.

I use quotes because it makes it much easier to avoid situations in which we shout past each other, and because it helps ensure that I read what you're writing more closely.

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1. Nintendo will not force motion sensing into every game unless it can benefit from it.

The response, once again: Nintendo would not have made this controller if SSB could not benefit from it in a way that they foresee.

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I'm just proposing that motion sensing should not be used for either attacks or moving...

That leaves throwing, I guess. But even if you change that, you've already moved away from the crystalline rigidness you believe is mandatory. As you're an experienced player, I'm sure you realize how crucial knowing the two possible trajectories down to the finest detail can be. Allow any trajectory in between, and it's a different story. It just would come up more rarely in the game.

Anyway, I reject the whole idea that analogue rules out precision. Analogue makes precision a matter of player skill rather than computer programming. One of my hobbies is fencing, and if you think there's no precision in that you're a fool. A good epee fencer will see a minute change in the angle of an opponent's blade exposing the wrist and touch it, often while the opponent is attacking. You can't get much more analogue (or precise) than that.

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Ok.. please don't argue semantics guys... This is a fighter... not an adventure game.... controls ARE a fighter, at least for me, so it is a different game then.

Yes. It won't be SSBM: Expansion Pack.

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think that game is damn near perfect but I can't play it with you guys on the forum so there's still room to go.

If Nintendo extra smart, they will make an online-enabled Melee as a bonus for Revolution pre-orders (though it could, alas, only be played on the Rev). Be damn hard for anyone to be unhappy after that.

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But all of your arguments are based on the fact that the controller we know maybe 25% of the plans for will alter every single Nintendo first party title to the point that nothing is retained.

Hyperbole much?

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For trying to see both sides of the coin I'm getting flamed. Whatever.

Sustained disagreement is not flaming. I'm continuing this because, frankly, I'm dying for more Rev info and this thread is a slightly less feeble substitute than the others.  

[Mario]

Although I COULD imagine some kickass gameplay with the remote, i'm thinking that SSB should mainly be the game to showcase the online system, just like Mario Kart DS is for DS.

[Rancid Planet]

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Originally posted by: Mario
...i'm thinking that SSB should mainly be the game to showcase the online system, just like Mario Kart DS is for DS.

True dat.

You don't see Nintendo making Mario Kart DS a "touchsceen use only" game do you?

I know that isn't really the same thing but you get what I'm saying.