Author Topic: Nintendo is winning this generation?  (Read 8387 times)

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Offline nemo_83

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Nintendo is winning this generation?
« on: April 13, 2005, 09:13:56 AM »
Quote:
The seventeen companies in the report reported fiscal 2004 revenue of $24.5 billion, down 3% from fiscal 2003. So far fiscal 2005 revenue is up 3%. The four leading companies, Sony, Nintendo, Electronic Arts and Microsoft, dominate the market and reported fiscal 2004 revenue of $16.7 million. In terms of revenue, Sony is the clear market leader, having generated $45 billion in game-related revenue from fiscal 1998 through 2004. However, Nintendo has been the most profitable company, earning about $7 billion in operating income from fiscal 1998 to fiscal 2004, compared with about $4.5 billion for Sony (from its games division) and $1.8 billion for Electronic Arts. Microsoft is clearly an up-and-coming powerhouse, although the company has reported heavy losses from its games division.  

http://freshnews.com/news/other-tech-areas/article_22871.html
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Nintendo is winning this generation?
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2005, 09:35:31 AM »
The console wars are won by market share not profit.  Profit doesn't attract third parties, market share does.  He who sells the most consoles wins.  That's how it is or at least that's what matters to gamers.  I benefit if Nintendo has more consoles sold.  More third parties jump on board, more exclusives get made, the media gives it more coverage, there's better rental and store selections, etc.  Nintendo being profitable doesn't benefit gamers really at all aside from the fact that the console maker won't be going broke soon.  So for the purposes of a console "war" and how it relates to gamers it's all about market share.

Offline Artimus

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RE: Nintendo is winning this generation?
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2005, 10:24:30 AM »
Nintendo always makes a profit. Their reluctance to risk that is part of the reason they lost so much of their market share.

Offline Plugabugz

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RE: Nintendo is winning this generation?
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2005, 11:30:15 AM »
From a business standpoint they're doing just fine. From a market perception standpoint they're clearly not. Nintendo has always been profit oriented, which obviously means longevity if profits are stable. Would I rather have a profitable Nintendo or a loss-making one with large market share?

Offline Spak-Spang

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RE: Nintendo is winning this generation?
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2005, 11:41:12 AM »
The story about profit is interesting.  Nintendo is quite happy to be 3rd if they make money and can pay the bills.  That is what a business is supposed to do.  Period.  It is the fans that are always hyped about winning and losing.  

The thing is losing money is sometimes worth it if you are looking at it from an investment point of view.

Microsoft has alot of money lost from their Xbox live, advertising, original console price, buying exclusives and such.  However, they have built a pretty sold reputation from gamers this generation.  Yeah, they bought that reputation, but now that they have it Xbox2 will be more successful.

I think Nintendo is going to try something bold next generation.  Or atleast bold for them.  It will be risky, but I think Nintendo feels if it doesn't step up it will be hurting.  So lets hold off and see what happens.

As for Nintendo winning or losing this generation.  I think its safe to say they didn't lose...or if they did they lost all the way to the bank.  


Offline NWR_Lindy

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RE:Nintendo is winning this generation?
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2005, 12:50:12 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
As for Nintendo winning or losing this generation.  I think its safe to say they didn't lose...or if they did they lost all the way to the bank.


Exactly.  In another thread I said something to the effect of, "If Nintendo doesn't get its act together, the PSP will take over and they'll be in trouble".  Let me publically profess the lunacy of my statement.  From a business standpoint, Nintendo is obviously better than ever.

That wasn't particularly what I was getting at though.  My point was that Nintendo seems too willing to maintain the status quo instead of taking a shot at the throne.  The video game industry is starting to remind me a lot of the car industry.  You know, companies go through prolonged periods of poor public perception, but then put out a hot product and suddenly they're everybody's darlings again.  Kinda like Chrysler before and after Lee Iacocca.  Maybe the Revolution will be that hot product for Nintendo's console division.

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Offline kennyb27

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RE:Nintendo is winning this generation?
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2005, 02:00:39 PM »
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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
The console wars are won by market share not profit.


Exactly.

With that said though, I've always been glad that Nintendo is still very profitable, because that's longer they can make great games for their great consoles.
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Offline Hostile Creation

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RE: Nintendo is winning this generation?
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2005, 04:07:44 PM »
Yeah, with more profits they can take more risks in the future, since they'll have the money to spare, and gain more market share.  Of course, my understanding of economics is simple at best, but it makes sense to me
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Offline IceCold

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RE:Nintendo is winning this generation?
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2005, 04:51:35 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Spak-Spang

As for Nintendo winning or losing this generation.  I think its safe to say they didn't lose...or if they did they lost all the way to the bank.
I believe that you've said the exact same words before on this forum

If Nintendo doesn't start taking some risks, they will lose profit. Until now, they have been just fine, but if this situation continues, it will affect them, so they have to start being more aggresive. They have shown signs of this (online announcements etc) but they really DO have to get a new mindset going into next gen.
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Offline nemo_83

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RE:Nintendo is winning this generation?
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2005, 05:35:50 AM »
I think that with the REV we will see Nintendo flex its financial muscle they have been quietly building for years.
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Offline MrMojoRising

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RE:Nintendo is winning this generation?
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2005, 09:16:31 AM »
This is a fantasy but it would be awesome:

PS3 is number 1 in Japan, Rev is number 2.
X-box "360" is number 1 in the U.S. Rev is number 2.

That would be good because Nintendo wouldn't be the "posh" company but all three companies would be at equal footing worldwide.  Then maybe we could get some better 3rd party support without being number one.

Edit: PS:  Then Nintendo would be especially sexy looking to 3rd parties that have a game that would work well in the US and Japan.

Offline BiLdItUp1

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RE: Nintendo is winning this generation?
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2005, 01:55:17 PM »
Here's to hoping that Reggie's recent breaking of silence wasn't some kinda 'reality distortion field' bullshit, Jobs-style.
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Offline ThePerm

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RE:Nintendo is winning this generation?
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2005, 02:10:49 PM »
I think Nintendo has saved enough money to take risks...plus..they have waited online out...this next generation broadband is readily available..and prefered..lat generation most people starterd out with 56k.  Nintendo seems like they were saving money and waiting for other people to create networks so that they can latch on rather than creating their own networks from scratch.
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Offline zakkiel

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RE: Nintendo is winning this generation?
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2005, 04:51:30 PM »
Quote

If Nintendo doesn't start taking some risks, they will lose profit. Until now, they have been just fine, but if this situation continues, it will affect them, so they have to start being more aggresive. They have shown signs of this (online announcements etc) but they really DO have to get a new mindset going into next gen.
I believe people have been saying this for, oh, the last five years or so. Nintendo has an unassailable base in family-oriented games. I would love to see them conquer the mainstream market, but I don't delude myself that failing to do so is bad business. Sony and Microsoft keep dumping money in the hopes of finally being able to reap a profit when they've crushed the opposition. I see no evidence this day will ever come. After two generations at the top, Sony is in debt. Microsoft would be out of business if it were simply a console company.

I think Nintendo is taking risks. I don't know how anyone can say the DS wasn't risky. If the Revolution is indeed revolutionary, it will be almost by definition risky. What people here mean by taking risks is really being edgy. I wouldn't mind that from Nintendo, but I think we shouldn't confuse sound financial practice with market risk aversion. Remember, Nintendo is the ONLY company with the stated goal of attracting a whole new non-gaming audience.
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Offline nemo_83

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RE:Nintendo is winning this generation?
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2005, 10:56:16 PM »
shouldn't the big media give Nitendo the credit they deserve for owning the handheld market and their overall industry profits compared to the competition.

I'm talking EGM, CNN, FOX, Gameinformer, NBC, etc.  They have given little to none in coverage entering the next generation.  They are being marginalized despite in my eyes, at least partially winning, if not drilling MS a new hole.
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Offline Rancid Planet

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RE:Nintendo is winning this generation?
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2005, 02:15:30 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: nemo_83
I think that with the REV we will see Nintendo flex its financial muscle they have been quietly building for years.


Replace REV with DOLPHIN and I feel like I'm in a time warp.


Offline nemo_83

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RE:Nintendo is winning this generation?
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2005, 07:10:23 AM »
EGM, Gameinformer, and the rest of the media are waging a conspiracy against Nintendo. Nintendo has pulled seven billion dollars in profits since 98 while Sony has only pulled four billion in profits. Sony sacrifices profits for market share because they are not in gaming for gaming. They and MS are in gaming for public image. MS has done nothing but create debt and can't give an Xbox away in Japan.

Yet MS and Sony soak up all the attention leading to third parties abandoning Nintendo's GameCube (which I will state again has helped them generate three billion dollars more in profits than Sony). That is not only a higher percentage of profits pocketed that is almost twice what Sony has made. Sony may be great with PR but Nintendo is still king of yen. Now Immersion (MS has invested a good chunk of change into that company) has a 90 million dollar lawsuit against Sony who is 61 billion dollars in debt.

The lead up to E3 has truly shown where big media stands. If you watch FOX news then you would be more likely to believe that PS3 will have photorealistc graphics, no programmer is going to waste their time and money trying for photorealism even if the system can do it so the CELL is a waste of consumer money.

X360 does have some leaked pics that I have no doubt were released on purpose. The launch games and the rest of the software on X360 for at least a year or two are going to do nothing but disappoint early adopter expecting supreme graphics. Zelda WW, Zelda 05, RE4, and MP2 are the best looking games this generation and almost look as good as X360 launch games. The difference between X360 graphics and GameCube graphics will be like the difference between SNES and GBA. Nintendo will at least match the X360 which mimics the G5. The chip sets for both X360 and REV are made by the same companies and will likely be so similar that games will take very little work to port between the two unlike the PS3. Nintendo has never shorted on the graphics on a home console and they will not with the REV. They are simply telling you the truth unlike MS and Sony that graphics are not going to be a big jump next generation. In fact the mainstreme will need an extra incentive to buy the new systems because they won't be able to tell the difference between the graphics. The way you get great graphics is through hard work, money, and time. I wish it was the hardware, but it is not. If it were about the hardware then Halo 2 would have been the best looking game of the generation, but that game is just about hideous. MS makes their games look like PC games with lower polygon characters covered in shimer effects and bump mapping, but they can't hide their tricks from my eyes.

There is plenty of info that is official that the big media is not covering about next gen. How about how you will have to buy a harddrive seperate from X360 to go online or that MS still does not know if they will be able to package in backwards compatibility with Xbox with at least one of their three versions of X360. How about how LIVE will be packed with microcharges for items and levels next gen? In other words you pay for games in parts because they make games in parts rather than as a whole.

What about how developers are complaining about PS3 being a nightmare to develop for because you have to write nine layers of code? Or that the launch of the PSP shows that gamers are tired of buying systems with just better graphics? They have not covered gyration, haptics, or trackballs for next generation systems, and readers are going to wonder where all these technologies came from when E3 arrives and they are shown these things for the first time. E3 is going to blow people away. If MS (they have already purchased the rights to the tech) and/or Nintendo use haptic controllers then readers are going to be screaming about why the mags did not cover this stuff leading up to E3. Readers are going to wonder why there was so much hype and letdown with certain companies and how other companies kept all these "secrets" for so long.

I think people are going to wonder why they did not know Nintendo had already announced online for free for both DS and REV. People are going to wonder why they did not know Nintendo was the only one who had made an official announcement concerning backwards compatibility on their next gen system. People are going to wonder why big media was putting REV down for so long based on graphical hype from the other companies when the REV will release a year after X360 (god I am already tired of the name 360, it takes too long to type). It only takes common sense to know that the first system released is going to be the weakest system released. X360 = Sega Saturn.



i posted that at nintendo.com and also found the following thread concerning the subject

http://forums.nintendo.com/nintendo/board/message?board.id=np_gw&message.id=631256
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Offline UncleBob

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RE: Nintendo is winning this generation?
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2005, 07:45:54 AM »
Yet MS and Sony soak up all the attention leading to third parties abandoning Nintendo's GameCube (which I will state again has helped them generate three billion dollars more in profits than Sony)

How much of that three billion dollars (or the total seven) actually came from the GameCube though?  How much was because of the GameBoy Advance, Pokémon Trading cards and other merchandise?

In fact the mainstreme will need an extra incentive to buy the new systems because they won't be able to tell the difference between the graphics.

The "incentive" to buy a new system will be what it always has been.  Because they aren't releasing any more games for the old one.

(I do agree with a lot of what you said though, just wanted to point that out...)
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Offline MrMojoRising

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RE:Nintendo is winning this generation?
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2005, 08:57:42 AM »
Quote

If you watch FOX news then you would be more likely to believe that PS3 will have photorealistc graphics, no programmer is going to waste their time and money trying for photorealism even if the system can do it so the CELL is a waste of consumer money.


If you watch FOX news then you are an idiot.

Edit: I mean anyone in general, that wasn't supposed to be a direct insult which it sounded like when I re-read it.

Offline nemo_83

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RE:Nintendo is winning this generation?
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2005, 10:35:43 AM »
I watch cspan, I like cutting out the middle men.  

Now when you look in mags and at the news they act as if the handheld market did not exist, that it did not count, until now because of the PSP.  What is up with that?  I have always counted the handheld market which shows Nintendo's genius with money.  They have run away and truly changed the way we define gaming already.  There is more handheld gaming going on than console gaming.  There is more money in handheld gaming.  Handheld gaming with its inferior graphics has put a wooping on console gaming.  The GameCube is more of a face for Nintendo.  It is their product to get gamers to buy their portables.  I personally believe that should be the other way around, but they generate as many profits from their portables as MS and Sony do with both their console's combined.  The GC just puts them over.

The thing is if the media is going to act as the handheld market suddenly counts so heavily then they need to also count the fact that Nintendo owns over ninety percent of that market and half of the overall industry.

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Offline UncleBob

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RE: Nintendo is winning this generation?
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2005, 10:43:34 AM »
[...]profits from their portables as MS and Sony do with both their console's combined.

Well, that's not really fair, now is it?  If Microsoft is (supposedly) losing a ton of money on it's gaming department, it'd be silly to "combine" it's figures with that from any other company.

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Offline nemo_83

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RE:Nintendo is winning this generation?
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2005, 07:16:40 AM »
This morning CNN did a short piece on MS, Sony, Apple, and other tech companies paying reporters and reviewers.  It was great to hear that I was not crazy, that these companies really are paying people off.  Plus MS pretty much owns MSNBC, NBC, and G4.
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Offline ProzacMessiah

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RE:Nintendo is winning this generation?
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2005, 11:14:19 AM »
The statistics quoted and linked to in the initial post are sloppily presented.  They certainly don't support any claims about this generation of consoles.

Quote

Originally posted by: nemo_83
Quote:
The seventeen companies in the report reported fiscal 2004 revenue of $24.5 billion, down 3% from fiscal 2003. So far fiscal 2005 revenue is up 3%. The four leading companies, Sony, Nintendo, Electronic Arts and Microsoft, dominate the market and reported fiscal 2004 revenue of $16.7 million.


That last number must be a typo.  It should be 16.7 billion, or the leadership claim doesn't make sense.  There's no way to distribute $24.4 billion among the 13 "lesser" companies without at least one of them dwarfing the 16.7 million figure.

The 1998-2004 timeframe overlaps two generations of consoles, rather than speaking to the current one specifically.  Microsoft wasn't even in the market until late in 2001.  Different companies also measure fiscal years differently.  Do Nintendo's figures include any DS revenue?  Probably not, but it would be nice to know.  

Total game-related revenue is given for only one company, and profits (I assume this is what "operating income" refers to) for only two.  Granted, Microsoft lost money, but it would be nice to know how much and to have numbers restricted to the Xbox portion of MS games.  No mention is made of Nintendo's handheld monopoly during the 6 years measured, nor is any accounting given of what percentage of Nintendo's total revenue and/or profits come from its handheld division.  The last figure I saw was that between 60-65% of their total revenue came from handhelds, and I have to think their profit margins in that market are higher--but that's just speculation on my part.  Console marketshare isn't mentioned at all.

How this turned a springboard for Nemo's later post about how The Man is trying to keep Nintendo down is beyond me.

Since Sony's entry into the console market, Nintendo has fallen further and further behind, both in console sales and marketshare, despite an expanding market.  They have also been unable to match Microsoft, particularly in NA and Europe.  Fewer and fewer console gamers prefer the Nintendo-managed platform.  Nintendo's profitability, in and of itself, does nothing to argue against the likelihood that this trend will continue.


Offline MrMojoRising

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RE:Nintendo is winning this generation?
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2005, 10:41:07 PM »
 
Quote

They have also been unable to match Microsoft, particularly in NA and Europe.


Not particularly, X-boxes are more scarce in Japan than aids in a convent.  Nintendo is still getting it's ass handed to it by the PS2 of course, as PS2's are more prevelent in Japan than aids in Africa.

I think this post really didn't have a purpose other than really lame aids jokes.

Offline Rancid Planet

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RE:Nintendo is winning this generation?
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2005, 12:09:35 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: nemo_83
This morning CNN did a short piece on MS, Sony, Apple, and other tech companies paying reporters and reviewers.  It was great to hear that I was not crazy, that these companies really are paying people off.  Plus MS pretty much owns MSNBC, NBC, and G4.



No not G4?!!??!! heh

Man If I can find the transcript for this I'd be in heaven.