Topic: Editorial: Feature Hungry

[Jonnyboy117]

This thread is for discussion of the editorial, "Feature Hungry", which can be found here:

Feature Hungry by Jonathan Metts

[Mario]

Quote
The dual display feature is particularly underused in many of the DS launch titles; both Mario and Asphalt show a simple map at the bottom, as does the upcoming Mario Kart DS and many other games. Then there’s Spider-Man 2, which barely uses the touch function at all.

If there was significant action on the other screen that required you to pay as much attention to it as the other one then wouldn't it get annoying touching it at the same time since your hand or the stylus would get in the way of the action on screen? How do you suggest games use the second screen to their full potential?

Spider-Man 2 does use the touch screen, in fact it's the most practical use of the touch screen i've seen, it provides extra buttons, with icons on them that tell is what they do.

Quote
Some fans are asking themselves whether these features were worth including on the system if developers aren’t going to take advantage of them.

If they were fans they would have heard Nintendo constantly re-iterating the fact that Nintendo DS's maximum potential would not be reach straight away.

Quote
After all, what do a touch screen and microphone have to do with each other?

As much as controls (buttons) and a microphone do.

I didn't really get the point of this article nor do I understand who it was aimed at. I didn't see Feel the Magic or Metroid Hunters mentioned either, which both make great use of the DS's features, and Feel the Magic does use the microphone in some minigames if i'm not mistaken.

If Wario Ware DS was a launch title I think we'd hear a lot less whining.

[Berto2K]

Quote
Originally posted by: Mario


If Wario Ware DS was a launch title I think we'd hear a lot less whining.

Hahah, so true from everywhere.

[ruby_onix]

I pretty much agree with everything Jonny said.

A lot of launch games are supposed to serve as "tech demos". They show you a taste of "that one thing" that the system is supposed to do, and let you imagine the future. The system's "flagship title" is probably the most important part of this.

I think the problem is that when Mario 64 DS came along, it replaced Metroid Prime Hunters as the system's flagship title in many people's minds, especially when MPH (as the the first real playable title most journalists saw) was found to have "unintuitive" controls, which was (luckily?) chalked up to being a part of MPH, not the DS itself. And then the game was revealed to only be a playable demo of the real game. So MPH stepped back, and Mario 64 DS filled the void.

Mario 64 DS illustrates (in the clearest way possible) just how the DS stacks up in terms of (minimum) hardware performance.

Mario 64 DS is not "the DS" in the same way that Mario 64 was "the N64".

A touchscreen isn't an analog stick and it never will be. Nor is it a mouse. What we need to find is a true use of the touchscreen. My mind keeps going back to classics of a bygone era, like Maniac Mansion or Shadowgate.

Games like Mario 64 DS and Metroid Prime Hunters aren't the ultimate examples of the DS. They're just different parts of the DS's formula.

Personally, I would say that Sega's "Feel the Magic" is the the closest thing to a current embodiment what the DS really "stands for".

Warioware (with it's superior popularity) probably has the potential to become the real flagship title of the DS, but I'm a little worried that the DS might become typecast with something like Warioware, when really the DS is "all over the place", and can be many different things to many different people, in a way that we haven't seen before in videogames. The DS really doesn't need to be Warioware's "a little bit of everything" philosophy.

[Lokno]

Quote
After all, what do a touch screen and microphone have to do with each other?

What I find funny about this statement is that one of my Computer Science teachers really loves the idea of a touch screen and a microphone control scheme, and he said so long before anything about the DS came out. He pictures a war application where you circle, or draw symbols on a map while making voice commands. Both the voice command and what is drawn are the combined input. For example, circling an area on a map while saying "move here."

Every game for the DS is going to take this criticism because it is a console of features, features many critics don't really see the use for, because anything done with them can be done with normal gaming controls. But this ignores what makes a good control scheme. A good control scheme is the most intuitive it could be for the application You certainly don’t need touch screen and voice commands to move troops on a map. Hell, you could just go into a command prompt and type “move soldiers to 45,45,45” or something. But I hope I don’t need to tell you why that’s not the best choice. What’s great about the DS, why Nintendo’s Reggie referred to it as the “Developer’s System,” is the level of choice. Developer’s should be able to pick what controls they feel fits their game the best, and this is the first time a console has allowed that. I think that’s something, and I respect Nintendo for their decision.

[Jonnyboy117]

Mario, did you read the whole editorial?  I'm not whining about these games.  I'm sending a message to the people who are whining.  And if you haven't heard these complaints, go read a few reviews outside of PGC and check out some other forums.  I would specifically point you to 1up.com's review of Super Mario 64 DS, although my editorial was NOT written as a direct response to that review.  I just feel that there's a danger of this "feature culture" building up over time, sort of like what has happened with Xbox Live, and if every feature isn't used creatively in every game, people won't be happy with these games.  I think the way Spider-Man 2 uses the touch screen is indeed practical and perfectly acceptable; the game's problems lie elsewhere.  I think it's perfectly fine that Super Mario 64 DS doesn't use the microphone and that Feel the Magic has no wireless mode.  But if you look at reviews and people's comments so far, some folks aren't satisfied unless every DS game embodies that ultimate DS ideal of "new ways to play".

[MaleficentOgre]

1up hates nintendo.  As a board member there I can attest to that.  Even the n-haters on the site admit that the reviews that 1up gives are crap.   I will say give it time.  The best is yet to come

[Ian Sane]

I don't expect every launch title for a system to make full use of the system's capabilities.  I do however expect Nintendo's first party efforts to show off a fair bit of the system's capabilities so I can see why some are whining.  The DS was supposed to be about new types of games, games that cannot work on another system, but Nintendo's sole launch title was Super Mario 64, a game that not only worked on another system but worked better.  Super Mario 64 DS isn't a DS game.  It's an N64 game shoehorned into the DS interface.  Re-releasing Mario 64 isn't that bad on it's own but when that's the sole first party launch title then all this talk of "innovation" and "new types of gaming" look hypocritical.

Now Metroid Prime Hunters does make good use of the DS's features but because it's a demo people don't really see it as a full game so it gets ignored.

If Nintendo had the Japanese launch lineup here there wouldn't be as many of these complaints.

[MaleficentOgre]

I love the launch simply because its dominated by third party games.  This way I can prove that the media hates nintendo.  They say "nintendo has too many first party games,  need more third party support"  then when the DS comes out they say "well, nintnedo only has 1 first party game and its a port.  Where are all the nintendo games!?"I still say that we shouldn't complaing until middle to late next year.

[- dragon -]

your right. altough the games we do have a very good

[Deguello]

Speaking of Xbox Live, it was utilized a full year after the Xbox launched.  A feature promised on the box of all places.

Quote
If Nintendo had the Japanese launch lineup here there wouldn't be as many of these complaints.

You know that's not true, Ian.  They'd be all "OMG too many wacky japanese games and not enough WWII shooters."

I don't see a problem with the reviewers complaining that some of the DS's features are not used immediately.  No problem.  They are entitled to their opinion, although a somewhat knee-jerk opinion it is.  It's when they reflect that sentiment in game reviews that is wrong.  They fail to remember that they are still reviewing games, and as such should keep their review to the subject at hand.  The game, not the system.    They also fail to confine their review to the content presented in the game and nothing else.  SM64DS doesn't use the voice input, and shouldn't be rated lower for that just because the DS is capable of it.  A basic rule of reviews (at least for me) is that you should refrain from reviewing what is not in the game.  It's just bad form.  Breaking this usually ends up with comments about kart skins and voice acting that leaves people bewildered, angry, and hositle.  Online multiplayer has become such a strawman for reviews it is sickening.  God forbid you include a multiplayer mode without online.  They will string you up by your intestines.  I don't think you should cloud your review with your expectations because it isn't fair, and could lead to a bad trend where somebody would review the new Zelda and say "oh well, I expected this to be an online MMORPG, 6.8 C-!" or "Hmm, Final Fantasy 3 DS only uses one screen, SUX!"  Reviews of games should be limited to games, and not your wildest dreams.

And uhhh... yeah.

[Ian Sane]

"You know that's not true, Ian. They'd be all 'OMG too many wacky japanese games and not enough WWII shooters.'"

Well I did say "these" complaints.  Those are different complaints.

"A basic rule of reviews (at least for me) is that you should refrain from reviewing what is not in the game."

What about in situations where the game is a port or a multiplatform release where a feature present in a different version has been removed?  Or what about a sequel that removes a feature included with the predecessor?  For the most part I agree with you but in those cases I think noting what's absense makes sense.

It's dumb to be more critical of Super Mario 64 DS because it doesn't use the mic.  However it does make sense to note the absence of the analog stick for the controls because that's present in another version of Super Mario 64 that is for the most part easily obtainable.

[Deguello]

Quote
What about in situations where the game is a port or a multiplatform release where a feature present in a different version has been removed?

Easy.  I'm not reviewing the other versions, just the GC version.  That could create an undue prejudice if one version is held up against anither version that is coming out in 2 months or so with planned new features.  It would be unwise to hold up the former to the latter, especially if the latter's new amazing features get cancelled at the 11th hour.  If you wanna do a version comparison as an article, fine.  But don't call it a review.

Quote
Or what about a sequel that removes a feature included with the predecessor?

It would probably be best to treat each new game in a series as if it was the first game you ever played in that series.  Fans of a series are more than likely already going to know what is included/missing, so you aren't doing them a favor by pointing it out again and whining about it.  And you would also create a negative prejudice for the newbie to the series by harping on a missing feature, which isn't good either.  I guess you could make a note a bout it, but don't review its absence.

[Ian Sane]

"That could create an undue prejudice if one version is held up against anither version that is coming out in 2 months or so with planned new features."

I'll agree with that though in my example I was thinking of situations where the other version has already been released and thus you can make an accurate comparison.

[Djunknown]

Great editorial as always.  

Quote
It’s not necessary for every game to use every feature; in fact, that would just lead to watered-down, gimmicky games.

I don't know, but perhaps some mad scientist (Hideo Kojima and co) can make a fully fleshed out game using all the DS features? Boktai was a strange trip as it is...

Quote
A basic rule of reviews (at least for me) is that you should refrain from reviewing what is not in the game.

I'm going to expect this rule to be broken like so much tissue paper when 3rd parties start doing ports to the PSP, or vice versa.  The only 3rd party title that I know native to DS and PSP is Dynasty Warriors. It'll be interesting if A) They'll two completetly different games B) They're the same and will be ported to the lowest common denominator; just slap a map/option screen on the DS and call it a day. Its a shame this rule isn't  strictly enforced in the gaming media

I'm holding off on the DS until I see more games that utilize at least 1 of the DS's unique features.  One could make a Karaoke Revolution knock-off to use the microphone, while the 2nd screen shows your lyrics, and the other showing how your avatar is doing doing.

Nah, it'd never work...

[nemo_83]

I didn't see any games for launch that used the new abilities to the point of justification of the touch screen.  I wasn't impressed by anything other than the Metroid demo, and mostly because of the control.  But my point is, I didn't buy one because I knew there was nothing the thing was doing yet that I can't already do in analog on many other systems, including my N64.  I already own SM64, why do I need a batery operated version without analog control?  Obviously the system's launch is aimed at two crowds.  Obsessive fanboys who have to own perhaps just to collect the Mario 64 x 4 or for the multiplayer and powerups that should have been in the original version.  And the people who never owned the N64 or maybe even a GameBoy, so they're up for a brand new handheld right now.  Those are the majority of the people who have gobbled up the DS.  It can only sell so well so soon after the GBA because the hardcore market is very hungry.  Nintendo can launch a system early and rely upon Nintendo fans to eat it up while everyone else stays with what they have.  Then once a lot of games are out for it, like a Castlevania that uses the touchscreen, then the rest of the world will start looking at the system.

I see no purpose in buying a system based on the features if the features are hardly used.  If you buy it knowing this, then don't complain to anyone else in my opinion.  It was smart of Nintendo to sell the sytem's many features.  It doesn't matter that they aren't used much, what matters is that they are built in and cheap, and they will be used one day.  Nintendo and Sega have been working on voice recognition for years.  Both the N64 and Dreamcast had games that used the feature.  Sega was talking about being interested in the voice recogintion technologies that Nintendo was working on back when they were just going third party, back before we knew anything about Mario Party 6, DS, or Revolution.  Sega has been developing technologies that animate characters' faces with emotion by reading the tone of our voices.  SquareEnix is going to be making online games for the DS soon maybe.  And I'm sure the touch screen will get used plenty in sports games, FPSs, RTSs, and RPGs.  There are many games like fighting, racing, and platforming that just don't require a touch screen though.