Topic: Games Too Complicated? Carmack Agrees.

[rpglover]

i have played many rpgs during my time and i must say that most console rpgs are pretty simple- usually just one button to do everything (which is basically to go through menus)- i like those rpgs, but i do like when an rpg developer takes some chances with how the battles should be played out- two good developers (monolith soft and tri-ace...i seem to talk about them a lot) take rpgs to new levels with different battle systems that spice up the action from the usual press a to do everything- although complex, they are fun- anyone who has played valkyrie profile, star ocean series, or xeno series can see that eventhough you press a lot of buttons during battles- they are relatively simple once you learn what you are doing- but pc rpgs can be a whole different story
basically some developers of pc rpgs just know what they are doing (bioware is the best in my book)- bioware takes the complicated D&D 3rd addition rule system and simplified it in their games (knights is a good example, as is neverwinter nights- you could basically point and click in that game and never know about any of those dice rolls the game does) but other companies just force you to press just about every button on the keyboard to play the game
i agree that there are games out there that are just too complicated to have fun, but some games (although they make you use different buttons on the controller) are still fun and are not complicated

[mouse_clicker]

Complexity can add a bit of strategy to a game, too, especially an RPG. Take Grandia's superb battle system, for example- it is by no means simple, and during a random battle in the Grandia series there seems to be too many things to watch out for- where the enemies are on the time guage, how fast they're moving, whether or not they're using magic ora special attack, who they're planning to attack, if that person has time to defend or counter attack, where your party is on the time guage, how fast they're moving, what enemies can be most easily dispatched, which enemies pose the most of a threat, whether the slower acting time of a stronger attack is worth the lost agility or if the enemy may counter attack in that time period, if you even have enough magic points or special points left to execut such an attack, where everybody's HP is and who needs healing, precisely WHERE everybody is on the battle field and whether it's feasable or not to cross the distance to attack an enemy, etc, etc- anyone who has played Grandia, though, will tell you all of these things, plus more thing you need to look out for I failed to mention, become second nature to you, and actually become pretty damn fun (I'd fight enemies in Grandia II just for the fun of the battle system). In my opinion, Grandia's battle system is vastly superior to the straight turn based styles used in Pokemon or Golden Sun, and a WHOLE lot more fun.

[rpglover]

mouse has it exactly right there- and grandia's battle system (although complicated at first) is one of the more rewarding ones out there- make the right choices and moves and you can counter an enemy's attack and skip their turn- make a wrong move and the same thing happens to you- and it is tons of fun as mouse has said
another good rpg battle system is valkyrie profile's- for those who have played it you should know how it works but basically you have four characters on screen for your party and those 4 characters are mapped to a face button on the controler (it is for playstation if you are wondering)- basically to attack it is simple- you press the button and the character mapped to the button will go and do a regular attack with their weapon- you can have more than 1 press of the button per turn if you equip the right weapons too- but the point is not just to damage the enemy- you try to build up a combo meter by chaining the attacks- if you get to 100 on the combo meter, you can do the character's special move by pressing their button quickly when the time meter comes up- as strange as it sounds the special meter when filled up is called "purify weird soul" and the specials are pretty cool- this system may seem simple, but it takes strategy as well- you must time the button presses perfectly to get the combo meter filled up- and you must know if your character attacks low, ground based, or throws the enemy in the air- if you do an air attack, then do a ground attack, chances are you will miss the enemy unless you time the button press to get to the enemy just as he falls- it is an interesting system and one of my favorites- it may sound complicated, but with practice it becomes a lot of fun

[KDR_11k]

mc: I agree, Grandia 2's battle system was very good. If it had FF's system I'd have given up after 5 hours, as the plot simply is too bad to be the only driving force...

[rpglover]

"the plot simply is too bad to be the only driving force..."

even though the plot was pretty linear i thought it had good twists in it (even though you could see them coming) but i think the plot was intentionally linear and easy going- game arts usually focuses on character developement more than plot- and to me the characters were very well done in the game

[mouse_clicker]

The plot was maginficent- well, maybe not the plot alone, but the issue Game Arts tackled was one I firmly believe in and I'm glad someone's not afraid to attack religion in a videogame.

I also agree with rpglover- the characters were very well rounded and three dimensional (no pun intended), something a lot of other RPG's lack.

[Ocarina Blue]

Now that I think about, clever simple games often have more varied gameplay than complex ones. Super Mario 64 had a simple engine, which might have taken 20 minutes to get used to, but it had clever enough objectives and varied enough means to get them I never felt bored. Baldur's Gate 2 was the opposite, I felt I was doing the same thing over and over again, but I enjoyed doing it because the story was interesting. I felt OoT was a good mix of these elements, as it combined simple controls with more weapons and complex puzzles. Still, there is a place for complex games, BG2 was one of my favorite of all time, I just think that some people are blowing Nintendo’s simplifying out of proportion.

[ThePerm]

What Nintendo has been doing has been making its control systems more intuitive. Simplifyin game...no not really Nintendo games all have a certain feel and thats been apparent since the metroid super mario 3 days.

[thecubedcanuck]

Even though many here claim they hate GTA3, it think its simple control scheme was one of its biggest selling points.
Yes, beating up hookers, stealing cars, and killing in the hundreds did sell it, but you could simply pick up the game and do these things without a big learning curve.
I guess I miss the old 3 button controllers, I really think they were all that was needed.