Topic: The DSi and What it Means for Wii HD

[NWR_Lindy]

The small text thing is in two games (Dead Rising and Banjo Kazooie), the controls that are supposedly so horrible aren't any more complex than any GameCube game, and I don't even know about the translation stuff.

I've just come to accept the fact that you loathe anything non-Nintendo, and frame your comments in that context.

[vudu]

I think KDR plays more PC games than Nintendo games.

I've just come to accept the fact that you generally don't have the foggiest idea what you're talking about and are willing to conveniently forget and/or make things up in order to attempt to prove your point, and frame your comments in that context.

[NWR_Lindy]

Hugs all around.

[KDR_11k]

The small text thing is in two games (Dead Rising and Banjo Kazooie)

Which doesn't explain why more than half the demos I tried had text that ranged from eye straining to impossible to read.

I didn't see Gamecube games use 14 different buttons (4 face, 4 dpad, 4 shoulder, 2 stick) for a freaking shoot-anything-that-moves game but then again I didn't play many of those on the GC. There doesn't seem to be much else on the 360 though. Besides, the bad usability is mostly in comparison to the Wii.

[Ian Sane]

I maintain my position that no one found dualshock-esque controllers overly complicated until Nintendo decided they did.  During the Cube years if someone complained that the controller had too many buttons everyone on here would have laughed at them.  Yeah, some games had issues, some still do, and some games had weirdo control schemes on the Genesis but that doesn't damn a whole controller design.

Ironically I never encountered any Nintendo developed games that controlled like crap until the DS and Wii.  The "confusing" Gamecube controller never had forced touchscreen usage or waggle.

[UltimatePartyBear]

I maintain my position that no one found dualshock-esque controllers overly complicated until Nintendo decided they did.

I find the clicking sticks extremely confusing and unnecessary, personally.

[King of Twitch]

RS2 was hailed for using every button on the controller, even the amazing revolutionary clicks. What a difference 7 years makes

[EasyCure]

I maintain my position that no one found dualshock-esque controllers overly complicated until Nintendo decided they did.  During the Cube years if someone complained that the controller had too many buttons everyone on here would have laughed at them.  Yeah, some games had issues, some still do, and some games had weirdo control schemes on the Genesis but that doesn't damn a whole controller design.

Ironically I never encountered any Nintendo developed games that controlled like crap until the DS and Wii.  The "confusing" Gamecube controller never had forced touchscreen usage or waggle.

When the dualshock came out i couldnt play Ape Escape on my cousins playstation for **** because of those god damn clicks. They'd throw off my movement which also didnt feel as precise as what i was used to on my N64, so my first impression of the dualshock was the fact that the analogue felt tacked on.

Oh and the very first time i'd ever played a playstation game (i think it was one of the twisted metal games) i instantly hated the controllers d-pad and second set of shoulder buttons. To this day i can't use that damn design because of how uncomfortable it is.

[DAaaMan64]

I maintain my position that no one found dualshock-esque controllers overly complicated until Nintendo decided they did.

I find the clicking sticks extremely confusing and unnecessary, personally.

Nah stick clicking works good for crouching and zooming a sniper rifle. Provided the riffle has only one zoom level.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

I used clicking in Wind Waker and Eternal Darkness to change enemy targets.

[NWR_Lindy]

The irony is that the act of getting to this website via a PC is more complicated than using the PS3 or 360 controllers, yet somehow people figure it out.  I guess it all depends on how bad you want to figure it out, and the Wii is geared for people that don't want to figure stuff out, which is great because there's a lot of stupidity out there.  That equals more cash for Nintendo, and more power to them.

The R3 and L3 clicking isn't used for frequent actions in most games anyways.  They're typically used for actions that are relatively infrequent within the context of the game in which they're being used, like sniping and crouching.  It's not like you're sitting there playing Super Mario Bros. and being forced to click R3 to jump.

[KDR_11k]

A PC has buttons labelled with exactly what they do (well, if you want to type text which is all most people do with the keyboard) and a point and click interface.

Ian, of course people didn't complain back then, that's why the Wii reached a new market: The people who were alienated by the controllers were not considered gamers, now they are.

[NWR_Lindy]

But you have to use a mouse with two or more buttons.  Then you have a keyboard with dozens of keys, not all of which are as intuitive as being a letter (what the hell does "Enter" mean to someone that doesn't know anything about computers)?  Then you have to know how to navigate the Windows desktop.  Then you have to know how to open up IE.  Then you have to know what to type in, where to type it, and what to press.  In terms of sheer interface difficulty, a PC is much more complex.  Just watch an 80-year-old try to use one and you'll see what I mean.  Yet, even children learn how to use PCs.

[UltimatePartyBear]

Children are better at learning than adults at everything, though.  And you don't see many of those new and/or non gamers flooding the gaming fora for the exact reasons you outlined, so I don't get the point of the rant in the first place.

[Ian Sane]

Ian, of course people didn't complain back then, that's why the Wii reached a new market: The people who were alienated by the controllers were not considered gamers, now they are.

I'm not talking about the new market in this case.  I'm talking about people on this forum that played Cube games that used every button on the controller and LOVED them but now acts like any game on the Xbox 360 or Playstation 3 is too damn complicated because it uses more than two buttons.

And I don't think the controller was alienating people but rather the concept of videogames themselves.  Gaming is not passive entertainment.  It requires skill and intelligence and, worst of all, EFFORT to enjoy.  The more effort something requires the less mainstream it is because people are often lazy.  And that sort of stuff usually requires some natural talent at it that can't be taught.  We're not all good at everything and some things are going to really hard to get into.  This is why everyone I know watches TV and listens to music because unless you're blind or deaf you can do these things with no effort.  Not so with my interests that require effort.  Not as many people play videogames.  Even less play guitar.  Even less of those that play guitar write songs.  And then you have someone like my best friend who builds trebuchets.  That requires enough effort and cost and time and skill that if wasn't for the internet he wouldn't know anyone who shares that interest.  That's the way things are.  Videogames require a certain amount of dedication to enjoy and not everyone wants to go to that trouble.

Wii Sports was a big killer app not because it used a simple controller but because it had such a "wow neato" factor.  Swinging the remote is like virtual reality (to the simple minded anyway) so of course everyone is going to want to try it out.  And it isn't like Nintendo is just releasing the same deep hardcore games with less intimidating controls.  The Wii____ series is also dumbed down.  Lower difficulty, less or no chance of failure, less options, less variety.  It isn't just the controller but the general lowering of the requirements to enjoy videogames.  It's making videogames as passive as possible.  Case in point Rock Band has winning and losing and requires skill while Wii Music doesn't.

The NES controller is even less complicated than the Wii's but your grandma who loves Wii Play is not going to want to play pretty much ANY NES game because most of them have all those tough effort-related requirements that videogaming in general has.  People didn't just think "oh they took off all those extra doodads off the controller!  I'll buy a console now!"  They said "hey I can enjoy this game even though I suck at videogames and have a short attention span".

I feel that anything that doesn't require some effort and dedication isn't rewarding.

[GoldenPhoenix]

I'm not talking about the new market in this case.  I'm talking about people on this forum that played Cube games that used every button on the controller and LOVED them but now acts like any game on the Xbox 360 or Playstation 3 is too damn complicated because it uses more than two buttons.

Exaggeration FTW!

[Nick DiMola]

I will agree to an extent that there are a number of games out there for Wii that are "dumbing things down," but many are just looking for ways to leverage the new technology and provide for better, more intuitive control interfaces that never could've exist before. But I will also agree that some people here make a big deal about the traditional controller now and how confusing it is, yet never seemed to have an issue with it last gen.

Also, Wii Music probably takes more skill than Rock Band or Guitar Hero because you need to be creative and you need to have some concept of musical knowledge to succeed. When playing your typical rhythm game, the game instructs you 100% of the time, telling you exactly what you need to do and exactly when you need to do it. Those cues don't exist in Wii Music at all, thus requiring players to listen to the song and determine what their part is, recreate that part, and finally improvise on it to give it a unique feeling. It's not something you could understand unless you played the game. Most people hated on Wii Music not because it was terrible, but because they were terrible at it.

[King of Twitch]

They cut out scoreboards from Smash Bros because of crybaby nongamers.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

"and you need to have some concept of musical knowledge to succeed"

No you don't, you experiment and learn as you go along (practice, such a foreign concept in gaming).

[KDR_11k]

Lower difficulty, less or no chance of failure, less options, less variety.

Yeah, sure, no chance of failure, no difficulty, you got all platin medals on Wii Play on your first (well, second since the first doesn't give a medal IIRC) try and never missed a gate in Wii Fit snowboarding and skiing, eh?

The NES controller is even less complicated than the Wii's but your grandma who loves Wii Play is not going to want to play pretty much ANY NES game because most of them have all those tough effort-related requirements that videogaming in general has.

My grandma refuses to play anything but my mother was alienated out of gaming when the NES came out with multiple buttons on the controller, she only played games on the Atari 2600 (my parents were fairly active gamers back then, buying many games). Now she's playing through the Phoenix Wright games and uses the Wii.