Topic: Wii Third Party Domination

[KDR_11k]

I think that means graphics whores and people who buy every console.

[MaryJane]

The DS hasn't gotten any big titles and the touch screen capabilities were exhausted at launch. The portable market and console market are two different beast which is why the Wii marketing plan differs so greatly from that of the DS.

[couchmonkey]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"VF5 appearing on both other systems - better get used to it, publishers have to port their 360 and PS3 projects back and forth to get their money's worth, but porting to Wii from those platforms is probably a waste of time, so much effort would have to go into downgrading the graphics."

So by gimping their hardware Nintendo has essentially restricted their third party potential?  I guess if they're number one in both major regions then all the big games will be made for the Wii in the first place but not being able to be ported to kind of sucks.  But then that problem was spotted years ago so it's nothing new I guess.

No, by gimping their hardware, Nintendo has made it possible to create Wii games for about half the price of the other two consoles, by some estimations I've seen.  If this is true, then ignoring installed user bases, it costs me X million to make a game for Wii, or 2X million to create a game for both PS3 and Xbox 360.  It's the same difference!  

If you account for installed userbases the Wii is slightly higher risk than the other two - but it's marketshare is growing faster as well.  At this rate, Wii could have up to 50% of the market by the holiday season, in which case it theoretically becomes lower risk than developing for both PS3 and Xbox 360!  And if you port that Wii game to PS2 and PSP, suddenly you have 8-10 times as many potential customers for half the budget.

Edit: Of course that "half price" is just what people are saying based on what they've heard through the grapevine.  Since game budgets aren't particularly public (and different publishers have different definitions of "cheap"), it's hard to say, but there seems to general agreement that Wii is significantly cheaper to develop for.  

[Smash_Brother]

The reasons the Wii is so cheap to dev for are:

1. Cheap dev kits.

2. It's an overhauled GC so if you've ever developed for the GC, it takes less time to learn the Wii.

3. The big one, NO HD REQUIREMENTS!

Most of development costs come in the form of manhours, as the price to employ competent modelers, artists, music composers, animators, programmers, designers and writers is where all the TRUE costs come from.

In the case of HD, every texture in your game must be able to display at 720p, meaning that your artists need to spend nearly 2X the manhours on every texture in the game, your modelers need to have 2X as many polygons so the models don't look like total ass, etc. etc.

HD requirement, depending on the game, can just about require you to develop a game twice, hence why the Wii is so attractive as a platform because, with a rising userbase and far less risk in terms of initial investment, devs stand to make more money, and money is always the bottom line here.

[Ian Sane]

"I remember back when Rick Powers raised a big stink and said that the DS would never get any big games, and that the potential of the touch screen was already exhausted."

The DS did get big games but I'd say the potential of the touchscreen was already exhausted.  The DS has done quite well and has a decent lineup of games but I still, years after launch, haven't seen a game that really sells the touchscreen concept.  At best it's a clever way to have mouse functionality on a portable gaming system and at worst it's use in games is forced.  It seems like for the most part forced touchscreen usage has gone down and developers are more likely to use whatever control scheme works best for the game, which is what they should always do.  The best thing about the DS is that it provides tons of control options and the best games are made from that point of view.  That will be the DS' legacy, not the touchscreen itself.

[Smash_Brother]

Nintendogs and Brain Age more than proved the concept.

Brain Age cannot be done on the PSP. Rapidly solving math equations doesn't work if you have three answers in front of you because then it's a multiple choice question instead of forcing the mind to derive the answer on its own.

Nintendogs would be nigh-impossible to pull off on any other console. The tactile effect of rubbing the heads, backs and bellies of your puppies is lost if you're doing it with an analogue stick.

Also, FF12: Revenant Wings is a RTS RPG which uses the touch screen to command your units. I know that's basically mouse substitution, but the ability to control like a mouse on a device as small and portable as the DS is a boon.

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The best thing about the DS is that it provides tons of control options and the best games are made from that point of view. That will be the DS' legacy, not the touchscreen itself.

And that's fine, really. The DS gave devs some new ideas and new ways to do things but forcing them to utilize the controls would have been a terrible idea.

[Deguello]

However, a game like Brain Age or Nintendogs would not have been possible on other hardware, period.  It allows a more tactile feeling to the game, which was and still is greatly appealing to non-gamers, newer gamers, and innovation hogs like myself.

And who cares if it was forced at times?  Nobody bitched when FMV or analog control or rumble was shoehorned into everything after their inception, whether it made the game better or not.

And there are several unique and innovative games on the DS that make wondrous use of the touchscreen.  And there will be several more to come.  To say that the touchscreen was exhausted day one is to say the D-pad was exhausted day one, which it sorta was because all it did was direction and joysticks already did that.  But imagine in the next iteration of DS (like in say... 4 years.  Thing's too damn successful to stop earlier) there is a much wider screen, which allow for more touchscreen real estate, or multiple touch input.  You can't write something off as superficial when it becomes a huge success.

IMO the REAL innovation of the DS is the second screen.  I think they just made the second screen a touch screen in order to keep it from seeming "useless."  I mean I can't tell you how handy it is to have that screen be a permanent menu or map.  It cuts down on the time you need to pause to look at them.  Seriously, it's that good an implementation.

EDIT: Did you read my mind or something, Smash?  

[Adrock]

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Mario wrote:
Anyway, Nintendo doesn't NEED third parties. The Wii will keep on selling out, and soon the userbase will be so big that third parties will need Nintendo

What the....

I think Nintendo's proved that they don't necessarily need 3rd parties in the console space to continue as a console maker. However, Nintendo does need them to continue expanding. They might lock up the new gamer crowd, but the existing gamer who either hates Nintendo games or abandoned them years ago won't be buying Wii for Mario or Zelda (though they might dig Wii Sports). And it goes both ways. 3rd parties need console makers too. That's how the relationship should work. It's mutual.

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Ian Sane wrote:
At best it's a clever way to have mouse functionality on a portable gaming system and at worst it's use in games is forced.

I agree with that to a certain degree. Many games tend to shoehorn touchscreen controls that make no sense. For example, New Super Mario Bros. used the touchscreen in the most assinine way especially when (I believe) X and Select did nothing (and A, maybe, was an alternate jump). On the other hand, it works great for Brain Age and kind of for Hunters (if that's your preference).

I think the real legacy of DS is that it forced everyone to think differently, even if you didn't have to. Nintendo made people look back at the core of gaming and showed them that games can go beyond holding a controller with both hands and memorizing various commands. I think they got their point across: Innovation is what is going to (or at least, should) drive the industry.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

What many fail to point out about "mouse functionality" is it typically involves sitting at an EFFING DESK, basically tying you to some station/spot.

Providing touch-interactive experiences that are easy to grasp, mobile, and accessible is downright CONVENIENT to the masses, especially in Japan.

Unlike, say, playing Brain Training on a PC/mouse (which would be effing awful since you lose writing functionality), Brain Training on DS provides entertainment with a obvious sense of physical freedom. (a concept that competes with the all-in-one home-based entertainment hub)

[MaryJane]

"Nintendogs and Brain Age can't be done on any other system"

They're both going to be made for the Wii (you know the system this thread is meant for).

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: Deguello Did you read my mind or something, Smash?

Yes, and I won't tell anyone about what I saw...for a price.

[couchmonkey]

Intermission: apparently Scareface: The World is Yours is being ported to Wii.

Godfather, Manhunt 2, now Scarface...dare I say "Grand Theft Auto"?  Guess it depends on how those others do.

[Smash_Brother]

I swear we knew and were talking about Scarface beforehand...

For some reason, I already had it in my head that Scarface would come to the Wii. Did I just read a lucky rumor or something?

[ShyGuy]

We were. A certain monkey needs to get off the couch more often.

[NWR_pap64]

S_B, Scarface was confirmed a month ago. Couchmonkey just arrived late to the party.

They confirmed that the Wii version would have updated graphics and everything.

[IceCold]

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The DS did get big games but I'd say the potential of the touchscreen was already exhausted. The DS has done quite well and has a decent lineup of games but I still, years after launch, haven't seen a game that really sells the touchscreen concept.

Rick said that before Kirby Canvas Curse, Meteos, Nintendogs, Brain Age, Phoenix Wright, Metroid Prime Hunters ,Trauma Centre and Trace Memory / Hotel Dusk came out. Those games more than prove the concept. Plus, how cool is it that you can scrawl on dungeon maps in Phantom Hourglass?

[couchmonkey]

Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
I swear we knew and were talking about Scarface beforehand...

For some reason, I already had it in my head that Scarface would come to the Wii. Did I just read a lucky rumor or something?

What?  And since I didn't provide a link I can't show that it was at least a new article.  Oh well.  

[couchmonkey]

Interesting article on Gamasutra, this analyst thinks third parties are supporting Wii too much.  Quite the opposite opinion from what a lot of skeptical Nintendo fans have been saying - this just goes to show how much the business side of the industry is oriented towards Wii right now, this guy's opinion is considered "unusual".

[IceCold]

The article about how Rockstar is going to be focusing more on Nintendo consoles should be posted here somewhere.. I'll look for it.

[couchmonkey]

I'm digging this old thread up one last time, because I think this transcript of Take Two's recent earnings call sums up how far Wii has come.

The Chairman of the board, Strauss Zelnick, says: "To be perfectly frank, I don’t think it takes a rocket scientist to realize what’s going on with Wii and DS. I will tell you that very quickly we turned to both 2K and to Rockstar and said guys, we need a DS strategy and a Wii strategy and we are working on it. As we get into the next quarter and into budget season for 2008, everybody in this company is completely focused on it."

The End.