Topic: A rastlin thread

[nemo_83]

I feel like ranting about the WWF.  I don't care if they call it WWE; it sounds stupid and the brand emblem looks nutered.

My first big problem is the brand extension.  It only equals one brand being looked at by the consumer as inferior.

Second irk; why is Vince not exploiting the WCW name and history.  

If there were one brand the first thing I would do is reform the Four Horsemen with Rick Flair, Benoit, Lance Storm, and Chris Jericho.  I originally thought to include HHH in that, but it would not work with the current winding down of "Evolution."  What's next, Revolution?  

I would put the world title in the hands of either Benoit or Jericho.  It would all lead up to a huge fude between the two; I feel these two should be carrying the company now just as the Rock and Austin did in the late 90s.  

I like the way Vince uses big past stars like Hogan and Piper still and I would like to see more of this.  I feel that creative changes could persuade hesitant talent like Sting, Bret Hart, and Bill Goldberg to come on board.

Generally I want to see more of the real personalities come through on live television than see the world title holder rape a dead woman.

I am a fan of technical wrestling, but also enjoy the type of entertainment that Hulk Hogan brings.  The talents of the performer are what should be highlighted.  They need to stop trying to make every wrestler The Rock.  The next big star will have his own thing and that originality will be what carries the industry for another decade.  Not everyone can be Bret Hart on the mat, or The Rock on the mic, or Hogan with simple personality and facial expressions.


I hope I'm not the only one who wants to talk up wrestling.

[nickmitch]

You're not!

I agree with you on everything that you said, but you forgot the clean up.
Some people just have to go. Carlito and the mexicools need to be axed. And John Cena isn't really that great.

I guess that things ust aren't what they used to be.

[nemo_83]

Carlito and Cena are getting crazy pushes right now; I just don't understand.  They come off as big dorks, especially Cena.


I would prefer the replace the King at the anouncing table as well.  Someone like Eric Bischof, Paul Heyman, or dare I say Bret Hart.  Every week King and JR go through the same lines; its getting real old.  They are making one of the mistakes they made in WCW which is telling the viewers about how bad a wrestler is rather than simply showing.  I want the commentary to envelope the product so that there is some facet of realism to it.  Even though it is fake there is an art to the whole thing whether its knowing how to take a bump, give a bump, or really wrestle.  Planning out a match takes a lot of know how and experience otherwise it seems like you are going from one spot to another.  You want to present the illusion that it is real.  I don't like the WWE style of wrestling right now.  I like watching more stiff matches, cruiser weights, and technical mat wrestling.  

They need to get Lance Storm back on and give him a push; let him help establish some of these up and comers like Shelton Benjamin.  I want more of a wrestling show than two hours of smack talk.  Some people just aren't great on the microphone, but their awesome on the mat.  

I read that the writters in the company blame the talent for not getting over with crowds, but the fact is the stories those "writters" write are worthless.  

If I were Vince I would be intent on keeping Hogan.  In the words of Arn Anderson, he is bigger than the buisness.  I would like to see some last matches with Macho Man, Piper, and Austin.

A face to face confrontation on camera between HBK and Shawn Michaels would also be a huge draw.



One of the biggest things Vince let slip through his fingers was Bill Goldberg.  When Bill came on board Vince should have booked some squash matches against "home town heros."  The history with WCW could have made a really deep character and WWE f'd it up.  Bill has the kind of personality draw that Hogan has.  They don't have to shoot a promo to get over.  The fans see them and go nuts.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Quote
Originally posted by: nemo_83

A face to face confrontation on camera between HBK and Shawn Michaels would also be a huge draw.

One of the biggest things Vince let slip through his fingers was Bill Goldberg.  When Bill came on board Vince should have booked some squash matches against "home town heros."  The history with WCW could have made a really deep character and WWE f'd it up.  Bill has the kind of personality draw that Hogan has.  They don't have to shoot a promo to get over.  The fans see them and go nuts.

I haven't watched wrastlin in a long long time, but isn't Shawn Michaels the HBK? how could they have a face to face.

Oh and Goldberg was the man, he was almost untouchable when he first started.

[Ian Sane]

The problem with the WWE can be summed up in one point: it's boring.  Sometimes bad wrestling is unitentionally funny.  Vince revealing he was the higher power and screaming "It was me, Austin! It was me all along!" despite the fact that the week before he revealed his face to Austin so Austin already knew it was him was bad but it was also hilarious.  Hollywood Hogan seeing the Warrior appear in the mirror which the announcers can see as well as us the viewers but Eric Bishoff can't also falls into that category.  But this current stuff is just really BORING.

I think the problem comes entirely from the lack of competition.  In the past a promoter couldn't get away with this much crap.  A competing show would start doing something cool and different and the promoter would have to adapt or go broke.  Vince feels he can do whatever he wants right now and that's a huge problem.  We're being told what we want to see.  Triple H is not a star.  The WWE decided he was going to be their top guy so they pushed the f*ck out of him, had him beat everyone, win a bunch of titles, and had the announcers suck his dick the whole time saying such ridiculous things like how he's the best ever and stuff.  Bradshaw is the same way.  So are some of the midcard guys like Carlito and Orlando Jordan.  Jordan is the ultimate example of a promoter deciding who the stars are.  He can't wrestle and he has no personality.  He is thus 100% useless as a wrestler.  Successful wrestlers can either talk or work and the very best can do both.  If you can't do either you are a waste of time and shouldn't even have a job.

A promoter telling us what we want to see without any competition results in an overall dull product.  Guys who show more talent are forced to tone it down and/or depushed so they don't reveal how inferior the "chosen" ones are.  Everything has to be designed around the chosen stars and since they're boring everything else has to be boring.

The WWE needs some serious competition to light a fire under it's ass.  It needs to see top talent jump ship again.  It has to be put in a position where they HAVE to change things up and have to push the most talented guys or die.  Sadly I don't see that happening for a while.  TNA is not a suitable competition because they fall too much into the same trap WCW often did: they try to copy the WWE.  So you get a lot of WWE rejects in the main event and the show comes off as an inferior rip off.  They have the X-division but in general the show has too much sports entertainment.  They should be an alternative to the WWE.  They should thrive to do what the WWE can't or doesn't want to do.

If I had the financial backing to have a major wrestling league I would strive to make a realistic sports-style product.  Wrestling is fake but it's supposed to resemble somewhat of a real sport.  I would focus on longer matches with emphasis on one-on-one competition.  Clean finishes would be common.  I would push based on talent and I would let the wrestlers know that.  The world champ would be the most talented wrestler in the league.  Want to be the top guy?  Then bust your ass and prove that you can have better matches.  I would try to remove some of the more unbelievable elements of wrestling.  Guys running in to change the outcome of a match would be really rare and they wouldn't get away with it.  At the very least there would be a storyline suspension and a rematch granted.  Stuff like '"floating cameras" in the locker room wouldn't exist.  There would backstage interview or interviews in the ring or "breaking news" something-just-happened-backstage-rush-to-the-scene stuff.  The camera has to have a logical reason to be there or it looks fake.  I would encourage a variety of styles though I would crack-down on spotty wrestling.  Guys doing a flip before every move looks cool but it hurts the flow of a match.  I like high flying moves but I would want it to have some resemblence of reality.  Plus I want that sort of stuff to be saved so when it happens it's a big deal.  Jumping of a ladder to put a guy through a table would cause the victim to be stretchered out.  A head drop move is a for sure finisher.  Stuff like that.  And I would use Paul Heyman's philosophy of showing guys' strengths and hiding their weaknesses.  Plus I would encourage longer title reigns to give titles more prestige in the minds of the fans and I would have less gimmick matches so that when they occur it's a BIG deal.  During wrestling's best eras titles and gimmicks meant something so a simple title defence would attract attention.  It's an easy way to build interest, it works better than goofy storylines, and it takes less creativity.  This guy wants to be world champ so he challenges the champion.  Simplest storyline in the book but all it takes to work is for the titles to mean something.  If two guys REALLY hate each other you put them in a cage and it's like the biggest deal.

If I could have any WWE contracted guys to start with I would pick Benoit, Jericho, the Guerreros, RVD, Regal & the cruisers.  The WWE is wasting most of those guys anyway so it wouldn't be like I would be stealing their top guys.  The rest of the roster would consist of indy talent, ROH guys, and TNA X-division guys.  I would also raid talent from Mexico and Japan.  Vince sucks at promoting foreign talent so I figure if I could succeed at getting non-English speaking guys popular in North America the WWE would be unable to compete.  That plus cruiserweights would be two areas that they could NEVER top.  My league would be the WRESTLING league for WRESTLING fans and the WWE would have to fire their entire creative staff to even come close to emulating its style.

[nemo_83]

A lot of good points.  The camera work needs some logic to it.

Regal as well as the Guereros can be fun to watch.

WWF lacks "foreign" talent.

Orlando Jones is the most propped up champion in a long time.

Clean finishes; oh how I miss those.  I can't remember the last time someone won with a  choke.

The WWF has turned into a damned circus; the most entertaining spots on Raw are the divas' wardrobe malfunctions.  

[nickmitch]

The WWE does have a lot of talented people but most of them are being over-shadowed and pushed aside by more crappy ones.
The WWE shouldn't be selling records. (This means YOU fozzy! and you too Cena!)
And I remember when ladder matches were cool. Also there was the invention of 'Hell in the Cell' and how it was shortly played out by having them at every other PPV and then putting them on Raw.

[Ian Sane]

Hell in the Cell used to be the biggest gimmick match in the WWF.  It was the ulimately stipulation for a great feud.  You thought these guys had a war before?  Now they're going to fight in the CELL!

Hell in the Cell turned to crap when the WWE starting using for the opposite purpose: using it to drum up interest in a lame feud instead of adding it to a great one.  The start of this trend was shortly after Wrestlemania XIX.  A face HHH was feuding with a heel Jericho.  The feud was bombing hard because HHH sucked as a face, Jericho had been booked to be the biggest loser champion ever, and most of the storyline revolved around Stephanie's and HHH's stupid DOG.  A rematch was signed but no one cared so they threw in Hell in the Cell to drum up interest.  Later they used the same tactic to try to drag out HHH/Nash and Lesnar/Taker, two other incredibly sucky feuds.  They even did the same routine with HHH and Batista.  No one wants to see this for yet another PPV?  No problem, we'll just throw in Hell in the Cell again.  A Hell in the Cell match is now like secret code for "this feud sucks".  Funny how they often involve HHH.

This relates to another problem with the WWE's booking.  They plan a fued around lasting a few PPVs, usually as the main event.  The problem is that often the fued bombs and they don't alter the plan.  They keep the fued no one wants to see on course for the two or three PPVs they scheduled it for.  I think longterm planning is a very good idea but there needs to be flexibility.  If something is bombing, fix it or dump it.  Dragging it on is the worst thing to do.  This happens a lot with, suprise, HHH again.  The ulimate example of this is the HHH/Steiner feud.  The build-up was okay.  They wisely kept Steiner out of the ring to not expose how terrible he is.  This is a dumb concept in itself that is pretty common in wrestling.  If they guy sucks so bad that you're afraid to put him in a match prior to the PPV because it will reveal how much he sucks why are you pushing him?  Anyway they met at Royal Rumble 2003 and the match was so bad that Steiner, who was supposed to be the face, got booed for his terrible performance.  But they had scheduled this feud to last two PPVs so they had ANOTHER match at the next PPV and it also sucked and the fans totally booed the sh!t out of it.  How absolutely STUPID do you have to be to witness the fans sh!t all over a match on live PPV and not pull the plug on the feud?  Everyone likes to play armchair quarterback and say "I could do better" but with stuff like that how could you not do better?  The writing staff is consisted of soap opera writers who have never watched wrestling before.  Anyone who watched wrestling prior to WCW's and ECW's death is a more qualified writer by default.  

[Nephilim]

"If I could have any WWE contracted guys to start with I would pick Benoit, Jericho, the Guerreros, RVD, Regal & the cruisers"

what are you talking about, they had great gimmicks when they entered wwf in 1999, they were outlaws that quit wcw, they had there group and they went well
then they wanted to go back to there wcw gimmicks, latino heat and stupid crap
there not talented
Problem is there new generation of wrestlers pose like children, they dont have that late 90s x-factor...mature childish humor, its all toliet humor now
Sadly the only ones who hold wwe up are Triple H (even thu ppl hate him) and HBK
There have there own styles, they have there own gimmick which reflects themselves...
there not rappers, bodybuilders who only want to destroy or mexican wrestlers who are as boring as socks at xmas (yes there flashy but promos are zzzz)

[Ian Sane]

DeadlyD I have absolutely no idea how your response relates the my quote.  I didn't mention anything about gimmicks.  Gimmicks are given out by the promotion anyway.  If a wrestler has a poor gimmick you can't hold it against them.  That's like saying a guy sucks because he loses every match.  It's all about the performance and what a guy does with what he's given.  If you were to make your own league that's what you should take into account when deciding who you want.

Chris Benoit has in my opinion the best gimmick in wrestling.  He's a wrestler.  That's pretty Bret Hart's gimmick and I loved him too.

And of course HHH has a great gimmick.  He's the unstoppable bad guy with the killer finishing move who beats up everybody and rarely loses.  Only a complete hack could not have a popular career with that gimmick.

I agree though that gimmicks that reflect the performers real personality are the best ones.  That a problem with the WWE.  They shoehorn everyone into the same basic mold.  Every face for example is the cliche rebel with an attitude Steve Austin knock-off.  Everybody is goofy and makes wise cracks.  It's the standard corporate mentality of "this worked once so we'll make EVERYTHING like this".  It's a mentality that I'm surprised has been so persistent in the entertainment industry because I don't think it's EVER worked.  Copycats fizzle out fast while fresh original content is what always brings big booms in business and sets the formula that gets copied.

[nemo_83]

Jericho and Benoit and other guys have little control over their character.  I know wrestlers are not writers, but writers are not wrestlers either.  I believe writers can be good for wrestling, but right now the wrtiers should all be fired and they should start with a clean slate.

HHH, HBK, and Taker can be fun to watch, but I don't want them to be the main event every payperview.  I don't want to see them carrying the title all year.

I want to see Jericho or Benoit with the title.  Instead the WWE either gives the title to HHH or some rookie like Orton, Batista, or Lesnar.

[Ian Sane]

HBK despite being old and pretty stale at least busts out awesome matches on a regular basis.  That kind of sheer talent prevents him from getting too stale in my eyes.  HHH doesn't have that talent, in fact he's pretty average in the ring, so he's really stale.  Undertaker at one point was really fun to watch because he was a big guy who could fly off the top rope and bump.  Now he's slow and doesn't sell or bump for anyone so he's boring too.

I don't mind Lesnar.  At first his super push irritated me but he turned out to be a pretty good wrestler who could hold his own with Benoit and Angle.

Batista's a boring non-charismatic power guy.  Guys like him are a dime-a-dozen.  I feel he was worth a shot since we was getting a good reaction from the crowd but he's not a longterm main eventer.

Orton just plain sucks.  He's not Orlando Jordan bad but he's close.  He's one of those guys who has a finisher and nothing else so he fills a match with punches, chinlocks, and choking.  Orton definately falls into the "WWE decided this guy was their next main eventer" mold.  I stopped watching Raw on a regular basis when he beat Benoit.  He's just REALLY bad.  If I have to told by the announcers how great a guy is then he sucks.  A world champion should be able to draw me in without any commentary at all.

[nemo_83]

HBK doesn't put himself in the title picture though like HHH.  

Right now HBK is cracking me up with his opening promo.  He is getting probably the wildest heel reaction I have seen in a long time.  He keeps teasing about Hogan and Bret Hart.  

[nickmitch]

Once thing I miss is how I used to get excited over theme music. I mean, once I was at a live show and the room went completely black with that purple smoke going all about and I knew that it was the Undertaker. It was a bit overwhelming (as he used to be) so I didn't shout or anything; I was just in awe.
When HHH went on his loosing streak against Batista I lost hope in him. He used to be the coolest and now he just sucks. It was the same with Kane. Before Kane took off his mask there were so few people that could beat him and he was almost invincible. He had a good gimmick but then he just lost it. The mask came off and he started loosing matches. He would actually loose so that other people would look strong by comparison! It was like they were trying to say, "Hey this guy can beat Kane! He MUST be strong!" But it got to a point where it was just like: "Man, my left butt-cheek can beat Kane! While being fondled by Richard F*cking Simmons! Kane ain't sh!T!" It's slightly different now, but my point is that the WWE ruins it's best characters.

I'm gonna go calm down now. . .

[Ian Sane]

My problem with the current entrance themes is that they're so generic.  Almost everyone has a nu-metal sounding themesong with aggresive guitars and yelling.  The best theme song right now is Shawn Michaels because it's so distinct.  You know it's Shawn Michaels from the first note played.  The most important thing about entrance music is that the fans can identify a wrestler immediately by his theme.  Therefore everybody's theme has to be reasonably unique.

[nemo_83]

I was sure Bret Hart's music was going to hit at the end of Raw; I would have **** my pants if he had come out.  It would have been one of the loudest crowds in the history of Raw.

[nickmitch]

I miss the Rock. HE had some identifiable music.
"IF YA SSSSMMMMMEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!"
That always got me to stand up. Especially durning the Royal Rumble.

[IceCold]

Yea - many times these days the voice-overs at the beginning of the music or the pyro is the only way to easily differentiate between the wrestlers whose music is similar (many of them)

[nemo_83]

I don't know why they are burrying Jericho on Raw; maybe he really is quiting.  

It just makes me hate Cena.  It is a lose lose storyline.

[Rancid Planet]

Quote
Originally posted by: nemo_83
HBK doesn't put himself in the title picture though like HHH.

Yeah, because he isn't crackin that cow Stephanie. ALL wrestlers would make themselves champ all the time if they had the power. But someone should be there to keep THE GAME-UH in CHECK-UH.

[Rhoq]

I've got two words for 'ya...Shelton Benjamin.

I'm very surprised nobody has mentioned his name in this thread. He's one of the most gifted athletes in the WWE today, as well as a performer that deserves to be in the top tier. He was one of the very few talents deserving to wear the IC title in recent years. It was a shame to see them take it off of him and put it on Carlito. Shelton earned that title and should be rewarded with another lengthy run as a champion.

The Angle/Benjamin match on the Raw this past Monday was one of the best matches the WWE has had on TV in years and the only noteworty thing to happen on Raw this week. He is the future of the company. I wonder if Chavo's racist promo (as "Kerwin White")  had a certain air of truth about how Benjamin is being treated by the WWE's writers/bookers?

[Rancid Planet]

I'll agree SB has a ton of potential but he isn't quite there yet. He needs to works on his mic skills a bit. Plus the WWE is racist as hell. And he is blickety black. It's the same reason Booker T can't get over with management.

Anyway, yeah I like SB a lot. I see big big things for him in the future.

[nemo_83]

Shelton definately showed he has ''it'' physically in the ring, but he still lacks any personality.  He can't act.

In five years when he has relaxed some and he has learned to speak without speaking; then he will be ready for the world title.  He will still be young and fresh, but his title reign won't be a blunder like Brock Lesnar's.

I am severly disappointed with how the Jericho angle went on Raw, and that WWE really believes he is not that valuable.  It has been said the WWE doesn't feel a show can be built around Jericho; yet he is probably one of the best full time wrestlers they have on a microphone.  Jericho recently put a photoshoped image of himself in front of the TNA logo on his site, and then he removed it...conspiracy; no buisness as usual in the wrestling industry.  If TNA gets a monday night slot they can destroy RAW in the ratings within a year; I swear this.  It already looks as if the company will be getting Jericho, they have a Saturday night time slot on Spike beginning in Oct, and these things could cause more superstars to change brands which would convince Spike to move them to Monday, hopefully live.  There are rumors Shamrock and Ortiz will be doing cross promotional work between UFC and TNA on Spike tv.  

Guys like Shawn Michaels, Undertaker, Kurt Angle, and HHH will be broken in down in five years; they won't be able to work full schedules anymore.  Who will pick up the ball if guys like Christian, Jericho, and Benoit jump to TNA?

[Ian Sane]

"If TNA gets a monday night slot they can destroy RAW in the ratings within a year; I swear this."

No they won't.  The WWE still has the more well known brand name and TNA won't be much of an alternative with Jeff Jarrett doing the HHH "supreme push via nepotism" routine.  Plus it has too many WWE rejects in the main event.  They suffer too much from the same sort of inferiority complex that WCW did.  If the WWE fires someone they feel they have to hire them regardless of talent or a lack thereof.  The WWE has had some annoying problems in the past but when Vince hired someone he at least tried to make them a WWE original instead of former WCW superstar so-and-so (except for a few exceptions like Chris Benoit).  WCW always made a big deal about when they had former WWF talent and TNA falls too much into that same trap.  They've done some things to set themselves apart like the X-Division but they still are too much like WWE-lite.

Chris Jericho however would be a HUGE boost for TNA.  He should be THE top star in the WWE today because he is probably their MVP (except maybe for Kurt Angle).  Benoit is a better wrestler but Jericho has a better personality and he's one of the top three or four wrestlers in the league and he can work as a face or heel.  Chris Jericho is the PERFECT wrestler to build a company around as the top star.  He's got everything you want in a champion.  The only thing he lacks is the head writer and daughter of the promoter as a wife because that's the only thing I can think of that prevents him from achieving the top spot.