Topic: An observation: Wind Wakers' "topographical awkwardness"

[Shecky]

I've talked with many an individual, and even seen some threads (not
particularly on these boards) that clearly state one of the main annoyances of
WW to be the inconveniently large spans of ocean.  However, a lot of times I see
people attribute it to something other than a "technical issue" with the game.
In other words, I think the reason for the sparse islands is very technical
(think down to the code).  The spacing is there for the loading of the next
area, so one island can be swapped for another as you approach, so all the
silhouettes can be gauged, etc.  Try it yourself, sail around and pay attention as
you approach the grid borders.
                                                                                                                           
Anyways, I just always hear people complain about it and I bet some poor
programmer is grumbling, well we would have made it shorter if...
                                                                                                                           
Or.....
                                                                                                                           
OR........
                                                                                                                           
The REAL reason for the spread out islands could be.........
                                                                                                                           
That WW over-world is modeled after Damogran!!
                                                                                                                           
Yes Damogran, secret home of the Heart of Gold.
                                                                                                                           
(  *Someone* had better "get" the above beside me
and if you do, the similarities are quite shocking aren't they )  

[Gibdo Master]

I think with the way the islands were set up, they were trying to simulate the one screen at a time thing from the 2D games. Basically, one of the problems with 3D is that everything is very open and you can see quite a ways around you. In the 2D games you would have a certain number of enemies and such on each screen. Well, it's a bit harder to do that with 3D because of what I mentioned above. Imagine in OoT if they threw a few enemies out there every so many feet or so in Hyrule Field. It just wouldn't feel right and would probably cause problems, so they simply sectioned everything off by creating the whole hub and spoke over-world.

They improved on this a bit in MM because the areas in the main hub were sectioned off by imaginary boundaries and there were more enemies. The problem though is that the areas were too small and didn't feel all that realistic.

This is further solved in WW by making these sections HUGE so that you can't see into the next area until your right up on it, basically recreating what you have in the 2D games. It's also more realistic because you don't see the enemies in the next area and they don't see you and so on. The problem though is that it was mostly wasted since the over-world was nothing but boring water and there weren't really any proper enemies.

I imagine in the new Zelda the over-world will be about the same size as WW's. The over-world will be squared off much like WW's with imaginary boundaries and the enemies will be located near the center of these. I also have a feeling the over-world will be pretty much completely open like WW's and the old 2D games, meaning that the horse will be extremely important to get around it.  

[Berny]

In addition, there was some interview on IGN or something in which they were saying that we'd get a topdown view of some puzzles for that old timey classic Zelda feel. I really think I'm gonna like this game (and not just 'cause Link is sexy. ) I'm glad games are starting to go back to the good ole 2D days.  

[Bill Aurion]

It's Zelda...That should be the only reason you need to like the game... >=(

[Shecky]

Quote
Originally posted by: Gibdo Master
I think with the way the islands were set up, they were trying to simulate the one screen at a time thing from the 2D games. Basically, one of the problems with 3D is that everything is very open and you can see quite a ways around you. In the 2D games you would have a certain number of enemies and such on each screen. Well, it's a bit harder to do that with 3D because of what I mentioned above. Imagine in OoT if they threw a few enemies out there every so many feet or so in Hyrule Field. It just wouldn't feel right and would probably cause problems, so they simply sectioned everything off by creating the whole hub and spoke over-world.

This is true, and 3D games in general have been doing this for a while.  In OoT, Hyrule feild had those peahats which had their 'zone', retreating if you wandered outside of it.  At night they rooted and only produced larva if hit, probably b/c of the skeletons also roaming about.  Basically they're doing the same thing, controlling the number of enemies on screen.  So even the larger areas are sectioned off (or maybe more specifically, 'controlled').

Quote
They improved on this a bit in MM because the areas in the main hub were sectioned off by imaginary boundaries and there were more enemies. The problem though is that the areas were too small and didn't feel all that realistic.

Ah, but I credit the extra enemies in MM to the requirement of the expansion pack, to help the programmers and game engine out

Quote
This is further solved in WW by making these sections HUGE so that you can't see into the next area until your right up on it, basically recreating what you have in the 2D games. It's also more realistic because you don't see the enemies in the next area and they don't see you and so on. The problem though is that it was mostly wasted since the over-world was nothing but boring water and there weren't really any proper enemies.

Right, but my point is then, why not be able to move faster across the ocean?  That would still yeild the limited visability, if that was the goal (and I agree that they wanted the island to be silhouetted - and I'm sure part of the reason is a limitation in the game engine).  My guess is that the large distance and slow movement was primarily for load times - or rather to hide them as you transverse the ocean.  

Quote
I imagine in the new Zelda the over-world will be about the same size as WW's. The over-world will be squared off much like WW's with imaginary boundaries and the enemies will be located near the center of these. I also have a feeling the over-world will be pretty much completely open like WW's and the old 2D games, meaning that the horse will be extremely important to get around it.

I wouldn't be surprised if they've managed to polish up the WW engine (which is being used for this new game supposedly) so that it can handle quite a bit more.  They probably had full intentions on releasing a second game before WW was out, and as such, never stopped working on the game engine.

[Bill Aurion]

The slow sailing was likely done for realism...I may be the only one who feels this way, but I think the long boattrips make the game much more epic...

[DarkSyphor]

I though as well.
And how about the large leaf that link carries,when he uses it he slowly falls,like a parachute.

[couchmonkey]

I don't know if it was a technical issue forcing Wind Waker to space everything out...is it not possible to see other islands and even enemies on those islands from adjacent squares using the telescope?  I don't know...I'd have to go back and check.
I tend to agree that the long boat trips made the world seem more epic and realistic.  I mean, the ocean just isn't that interesting.  I think Nintendo did a decent job of spicing things up with enemies and those rupee obstacle courses, though I do admit, I would have liked it if everything had been a bit closer together.

[Shecky]

Quote
Originally posted by: couchmonkey
...is it not possible to see other islands and even enemies on those islands from adjacent squares using the telescope?  I don't know...I'd have to go back and check.

You see a silhouette - no enemies or movement.  Things like the guard tower silhouettes will only show in the same grid.  Not that there isn't an attention to detail though (and that's one of the reasons I love games like this).... For instance there are a few exceptions that stick out in my head:
- Lights at night, like the Lighthouse
- Islands with a very unique feature, like the ice cavern and volcano, had moving silhouettes

There's actually a null zone at the grid lines where everything is silhouetteted (that a word??).  I rember showing my friend once with the 'steel/iron/something like that' island and the square south and south west of it.

I just like pointing it out as a possiblity, and at least a partial factor on why things are they way they are.

-Shecky

That and I don't think any of you got the Damogran reference, which is pretty unfortunate.  If you did, pm me the one number to prove it

[Jale]

Its not much like Damogran because Damogran was made up of shallow waters and sandbanks. The only island which is much like anything in Damogran is Crescent Moon Island, as this is pretty much like the island of France, the construction site of the Heart of Gold. Oh yes and the number is FOURTY TWO!!!!!

[Shecky]

Jale

For the rest read:

The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams

Particularly chapter four.

[Jale]

Great books, recommended to all. Read the series in a week. Note: It is a triolgy of five.

[norebonomis]

i also thought that the sailing made it feel more epic. allthough there was a bit much of it. i hope that in the next game sailing is brought back, in combination with horse riding of course. just a side note? has anyone rode horses yet in four swords? IT"S AWSOME! oh yah, and thanks for all the fish ^_^

[Jale]

Something that annoyed me about the boat. You couldn't beach it. Wouldn't that have been great: sailing up to a beach and skidding several feet up the sand bank. You could easily push it out again. That would have been a nice move I think.

[evil intentions]

They shouldn't have gotten rid of the horse. Let it ride with you on the boat for all I care.

[Berny]

Quote
Originally posted by: evil intentions
They shouldn't have gotten rid of the horse. Let it ride with you on the boat for all I care.

Link: Okay Epona, back it up a LITTLE more. Okay...okay. Okay stop. Epona stop. STOP! AHHHHHH!!!!

*WATERED!!!*

Fishman: Oh ho ho! If you go three islands north and fourteen million islands east you'll find Jesus!
Yoshi: *noises*