Topic: Iwata Discusses Nintendo's Next Console

[Ian Sane]

"I want to see them go back to the cartridge-based system."

Yeah that sounds super.  I can't wait to go back to paying $80 Canadian for new games and having virtually non-existant third party support and super sh!tty sound.  WHEE!

You can talk about how the N64 was profitable and had some of the best games ever made for it but that doesn't change the fact that there were maybe four games a year released on it that were worth playing.  I like cartridges but the cons far outweigh the pros.  Having cheaper games and more games to choose from is more important to me.  Plus the whole "scratching" issue doesn't matter to me because I'm not a big dumbass who treats his games like crap.

However I do think that a console that could play both cartridges and optical discs would be pretty cool.  That way developers could decide which format would suit their game better.  However this would require both formats to be supported out of the box with no add-ons.

[Kyosho]

jasonditz,

because of the limitations of cartridges, I feel developers will be dissatisfied more so by the cons than the pros, and therefore we get the crop of developers leaving (again).  Sure N64 had some of the greatest games of all time, but aside from Nintendo, how many companies are still producing quality games for Nintendo from the N64 era?

I think Iwata should definitely make the N5 backwards compatible.  It's the one thing that will definitely catch dissatisfied Gamecube owner's eyes.  It would be nice if the disc held more data so we dont have to disc swap.

[jasonditz]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"I want to see them go back to the cartridge-based system."

Yeah that sounds super.  I can't wait to go back to paying $80 Canadian for new games and having virtually non-existant third party support and super sh!tty sound.  WHEE!

The sound problem is a non-issue. CD-quality Ogg Vorbis files could easily be put on a cartridge. Saying "we should use cartridges" is not the same as saying "we should use 8 Mbit EPROMs like the SNES did. Here in the US the games cost $50 new for the N64, which is the same as most Gamecube titles.

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You can talk about how the N64 was profitable and had some of the best games ever made for it but that doesn't change the fact that there were maybe four games a year released on it that were worth playing.  I like cartridges but the cons far outweigh the pros.  Having cheaper games and more games to choose from is more important to me.  Plus the whole "scratching" issue doesn't matter to me because I'm not a big dumbass who treats his games like crap.

And how many games do you really consider "worth playing" now? It seems like last years Gamecube crop only saw a handful of really worthwhile titles itself.

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However I do think that a console that could play both cartridges and optical discs would be pretty cool.  That way developers could decide which format would suit their game better.  However this would require both formats to be supported out of the box with no add-ons.

That would be nice, but probably would make the console prohibitively expensive.  

[jasonditz]

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Originally posted by: Kyosho
jasonditz,

because of the limitations of cartridges, I feel developers will be dissatisfied more so by the cons than the pros, and therefore we get the crop of developers leaving (again).  Sure N64 had some of the greatest games of all time, but aside from Nintendo, how many companies are still producing quality games for Nintendo from the N64 era?

Can we really blame the media format for lack of third party support? Nintendo switched to optical discs like you guys all wanted this generation, where are all the great third party titles? The reason many third parties don't like Nintendo's system is because they are flat out scared of competing with superior first party titles. That's not going away no matter what media format you choose.

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I think Iwata should definitely make the N5 backwards compatible.  It's the one thing that will definitely catch dissatisfied Gamecube owner's eyes.  It would be nice if the disc held more data so we dont have to disc swap.

Why not make it backwards compatible with one of Nintendo's better selling past consoles? Is there any reason we couldn't, eg., offer SNES backwards compatiblity instead? There's no law saying backwards compatibility has to look at the immediately previous generation.

[Kyosho]

"Can we really blame the media format for lack of third party support? Nintendo switched to optical discs like you guys all wanted this generation, where are all the great third party titles? The reason many third parties don't like Nintendo's system is because they are flat out scared of competing with superior first party titles. That's not going away no matter what media format you choose"

I look at it more from this point of view:

I am a vendor selling popsicles on the street.  Then another vendor selling cream covered popsicles for the same or less price.  All the kids start buying from him.  Now, I decide to switch to cream covered popsicles and charge the same as the other vendor.  Now, do you think those kids are going to be coming back to me just because I switched over?

"Why not make it backwards compatible with one of Nintendo's better selling past consoles? Is there any reason we couldn't, eg., offer SNES backwards compatiblity instead? There's no law saying backwards compatibility has to look at the immediately previous generation. "

Because cartridges are a done medium for a home console system.  It's pointless to offer SNES compatibility because you can fit god knows how many games onto one GC disc and exactly how many people out there still can find all their games.  Also, i'm willing to bet the format of the SNES carts vs N64 carts differ too much so there would be no uniform way of uniting the two into one system.  But the fact is this: Business practice has never skipped the previous generation in favor of the generations before that.  Does going back to hi-fi over CDs sound good to you? How about 8mm over DVD? or wait... 5.25" floppies over CD?

FYI, the last i saw when good N64 games were actively selling at BB, they were selling between 59.99-69.99 MSRP.

[jasonditz]

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Originally posted by: Kyosho
"Can we really blame the media format for lack of third party support? Nintendo switched to optical discs like you guys all wanted this generation, where are all the great third party titles? The reason many third parties don't like Nintendo's system is because they are flat out scared of competing with superior first party titles. That's not going away no matter what media format you choose"

I look at it more from this point of view:

I am a vendor selling popsicles on the street.  Then another vendor selling cream covered popsicles for the same or less price.  All the kids start buying from him.  Now, I decide to switch to cream covered popsicles and charge the same as the other vendor.  Now, do you think those kids are going to be coming back to me just because I switched over?

On the other hand, you might drive away your loyal customers who didn't want creme in the first place.

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"Why not make it backwards compatible with one of Nintendo's better selling past consoles? Is there any reason we couldn't, eg., offer SNES backwards compatiblity instead? There's no law saying backwards compatibility has to look at the immediately previous generation. "

Because cartridges are a done medium for a home console system.  It's pointless to offer SNES compatibility because you can fit god knows how many games onto one GC disc and exactly how many people out there still can find all their games.  Also, i'm willing to bet the format of the SNES carts vs N64 carts differ too much so there would be no uniform way of uniting the two into one system.  But the fact is this: Business practice has never skipped the previous generation in favor of the generations before that.  Does going back to hi-fi over CDs sound good to you? How about 8mm over DVD? or wait... 5.25" floppies over CD?

You can significantly change the cartridge specification and still offer backwards compatibility just by embedding the old port somewhere in the new port. For that matter cartridge ports are a lot cheaper than optical drives, why not have several ports supporting all the old Nintendo cartridge systems on the thing?

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FYI, the last i saw when good N64 games were actively selling at BB, they were selling between 59.99-69.99 MSRP.

What currency is that in? I only ever saw one or two N64 titles that cost more than $50, and you could always find them for $50 somewhere if you shopped around.

[Kyosho]

"On the other hand, you might drive away your loyal customers who didn't want creme in the first place. "

Cartridges drove away developers hence drove away customers.  At the same time, the cons of carts also drove away customers (e.g. $$$)

"What currency is that in?..."

US.  I am not talking about the cost of N64 titles NOW.  I am talking about when they were actually making games for it.  How do I know? Because I had the N64 since the day Mario 64 came out and sold for 59.99-69.99 at Kay Bee's.

I'm gonna stop replying to your messages after this.  It's a pretty moot point you have here.  Nothing past or preset supports any of your claims.

[KDR_11k]

I doubt there was much of a price increase of cartridges over disks here, but that's because console games are overpriced anyway. 33% more than PC games isn't peanuts.

[thecubedcanuck]

"33% more than PC games isn't peanuts. "

$50 for a game that lasts 10 hours is peanuts in comparison to every other form of entertainment.
Get over it.

[KDR_11k]

60 Euros compared to 35-45 Euros is a difference and I have doubts that console games offer proportionally more gameplay.

[mouse_clicker]

You pay $20 for a 2 hour movie- comparitively that would be $100 for a 10 hour game. No one complains about that, though- hell, $20 is a good price for a movie.

[thecubedcanuck]

Mouse,

exactly!

I was at the Redwings- Nashville hockey game a few days back and the 2 tickets cost me over $200 US for 3.25 hours, worth every penny IMO. So $50 for a game is very reasonable. In fact I think games are too cheap for the costs incurred making them.

[Renny]

Some were more than $50 and others were less. The average is maybe $55. Anyone wanna try some rough math?

[jasonditz]

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Originally posted by: Kyosho
"On the other hand, you might drive away your loyal customers who didn't want creme in the first place. "

Cartridges drove away developers hence drove away customers.  At the same time, the cons of carts also drove away customers (e.g. $$$)

If that was true we'd expect the Gamecube to have a bigger market share than the N64...

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"What currency is that in?..."

US.  I am not talking about the cost of N64 titles NOW.  I am talking about when they were actually making games for it.  How do I know? Because I had the N64 since the day Mario 64 came out and sold for 59.99-69.99 at Kay Bee's.

N64 titles now cost about $5-$10. I bought one 6 months after launch and never paid more than $50 for a game. You really need to shop around more, there's a whole world out there past Kaybee Toys.

[KDR_11k]

I payed ~50$ for a 200 hour game (Baldur's Gate 2) and ~75$ for a five hour game (P.N.03) (extreme examples, but valid nonetheless). That's the problem. I don't care about movies or any other form of media (books beat 'em all, BTW), I care about the pricing difference between PC and console games.

Fun fact: Mafia and Unreal II are 60 Euros on the XBox and 10 Euros on the PC...

[jasonditz]

Actually I take that back, I did pay $60 for DK64, but that came with the memory expansion addon.

[thecubedcanuck]

oh well, I dont live in Europe, so I really could care less.

[Kyosho]

"If that was true we'd expect the Gamecube to have a bigger market share than the N64... "

Again, you're not and never taking into consideration any past situations that might have affected the current situation.

Back when the N64 came out, Fry's, Best Buy, Toys R Us, The Good Guys, and KBs were the primary places to buy games because those places were the cheapest compared to generic stores.  It just so happened that I bought Mario 64 @ KBs which at that time ALL the stores priced it between 59.99-69.99.  I already did the price search.  I live in SoCal so perhaps it may be cheaper in your area because of less demand.

Based on the broadest definition of the word "entertainment", then 50$ is peanuts compared to other things.  But some people such as myself value certain entertainment over others ignoring costs.  For example, I'd pay 80$ to go see a 3 hour DMB concert than to pay 50$ for the latest RPG.

[jasonditz]

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Originally posted by: Kyosho
"If that was true we'd expect the Gamecube to have a bigger market share than the N64... "

Again, you're not and never taking into consideration any past situations that might have affected the current situation.

Not at all, I'm just saying if cartridges were the problem you'd have expected the situations with third party support and market share, even if they didn't get hugely better after the switch to optical discs, to stop getting worse, they didn't.

Where is all this vaunted third party support that discs were supposed to provide? Three years later I can still count all the really worthwhile exclusive third party titles on one hand. Was a disc-based system really worth the hassle for a bunch of sloppy PS2 ports?

We could dispute the market share situation at any rate by saying it has never been third party titles which have moved Nintendo consoles, but first party titles. At any rate, the Gamecube has had to seriously undercut the competition on price, something the N64 never really had to.

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Back when the N64 came out, Fry's, Best Buy, Toys R Us, The Good Guys, and KBs were the primary places to buy games because those places were the cheapest compared to generic stores.  It just so happened that I bought Mario 64 @ KBs which at that time ALL the stores priced it between 59.99-69.99.  I already did the price search.  I live in SoCal so perhaps it may be cheaper in your area because of less demand.

Could be a regional difference. Here in MI even if Best Buy was $60 on a title when it first came out one could always find the title at Target, Circuit City, Media Play, or Meijers for $50.

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Based on the broadest definition of the word "entertainment", then 50$ is peanuts compared to other things.  But some people such as myself value certain entertainment over others ignoring costs.  For example, I'd pay 80$ to go see a 3 hour DMB concert than to pay 50$ for the latest RPG.

Everyone has different tastes. I don't know who this DMB fellow is, but for $80 he'd better provide me with dinner as well over the 3 hours. On the other hand I almost certainly will drop the $50 when Tales of Symphonia launches. Hell, if it was $59.99 I'd probably still get it.

[jasonditz]

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Originally posted by: thecubedcanuck
"33% more than PC games isn't peanuts. "

$50 for a game that lasts 10 hours is peanuts in comparison to every other form of entertainment.
Get over it.

What about books?

[Geno911]

you guys are ignoring one of the cheapest ways to enjoy all of these forms of entertainment....BLOCKBUSTER!... ive rented countless games and saved hundreds if not thousands of dollars (ive easily rented 40-50 games saving me a good 2 thousand dollars) taking out these 5-10 hour long games and beat them and move on...buying games like wario world is a complete waste of money as is any game you spend only 10 hours on, so rent even if you have to rent it a couple of times....however its still important to purchase some games like  ea sports games and the good old first party zelda/mario type games which i often play and replay.... and dont get me started on used games....oh man...

[thecubedcanuck]

"What about books?"

I read very very fast

[ThePerm]

ignoring blockbuster...the other way aropund..in the n64 gen i could get any n64 game i wanted no problem. Now I just ignore blockbuster because they have a shitty selection of games and they purposely jip gc.  

[mouse_clicker]

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"What about books?"

I read very very fast

Not to mention that books are free at the library.