Author Topic: Is there a hidden grudge/bias towards Nintendo?  (Read 8801 times)

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Offline The Omen

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Is there a hidden grudge/bias towards Nintendo?
« on: February 04, 2004, 10:37:36 AM »
  In my opinion, there seems to be plenty of hurt feelings in the games industry from the 8bit/16 bit days.  Assuming Sega, Namco, Square and a few others have been burned by the big Ns business dealings, mostly iron fist tactics, dont you think its possible that a grudge between companies exists to this day?  I see that these developers are back on board 'officially', but Sega, specifically, still holds some games back, makes 'kiddie' comments more than any other company this side of MS. Maybe not Sega as a whole, but certain developers/studios.  And we all understand how ugly the 16 bit wars were, and many of the same names/ developers are still with them. Namco is on board, but haven't delivered anything that wasnt Nintendos idea.  The 2 new RPGs should make things up nicely, but still, many of their games are not planned to be released on GC.  We know Square is basically making GC game/s just to gain access to the GBA market.
  I think of it this way-we're dealing with human emotions.  Many of us have been scarred from past experiance, being a human who happens to work for a video games company makes you no less hurt from past disputes.  I don't find it far fetched in the least to think theres a market wide joy at any failure Nintendo may endure.  It may well be karma for Nintendos past, but that isn't the point.  Do you feel there is any semblence of anti-nintendo-ism in the industry?  And if so, feel free to point out many other examples i left out-i didn't feel like writing a book today.
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Offline Bill Aurion

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RE: Is there a hidden grudge/bias towards Nintendo?
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2004, 10:42:49 AM »
I really don't feel like typing out a lot right now, but I can squeeze the answer into a single word:  scapegoat

Most people have urges to pin the blame on someone else so they don't look like the fool...Nintendo is usually this scapegoat, and it actually works out well because of "their image."  So when sales of a game do poorly, companies look for someone to blame, and it's Ninty most of the time...Sadly they don't like to admit that they made a crappy game...
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Is there a hidden grudge/bias towards Nintendo?
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2004, 11:43:23 AM »
Let's face it.  Back in the glory days of the NES Nintendo was a bunch of assh0les.  They charged high licensing fees, they made every developer promise exclusive support, they limited the amount of games released by each third party per year, they censored content in North America, etc.  Sony doesn't do any of these things so it makes sense to me that once third parties had an excuse to leave Nintendo (in this case an expensive cartridge format) they went for it.  I don't blame them.

Now there is no major hardware restriction to give third parties a reason to not support the Cube and many of Nintendo past strong arm tactics are no longer enforced (though the license fees are apparently still higher than Sony's).  Why don't the third parties all go back to Nintendo?  Because they don't have to.  The PS2 is the cash cow and with the largest userbase PS2 games have the highest potential sales.  Plus Sony still provides developers with the freedom they have always offered and STILL charges lower license fees than Nintendo.  There's no reason to return to Nintendo consoles aside from the Gameboy of course.

As mentioned Square Enix supports the Cube so they can support the GBA which is the portable equivalent of the PS2.  That's the only reason they made FFCC.  They also got Nintendo to publish it.  Sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me.

Sega's support is dependent on what console the individual team likes.  Amusement Vision and Sonic Team like the Gamecube so that's why all of their games go on that console.  I'm not sure why they like it but I figure it's because they make games that are a lot like Nintendo's so they figure the userbase would fit best.

Capcom and Namco seem to support Nintendo for reasons I can't really explain.  I think they want Nintendo to survive so they're helping out to the point where they can still make money on the PS2.  The reason they want to keep Nintendo alive is because they are predicting that if Nintendo dies and the industry is run solely by corporate electronics giants, things won't be as peachy for Playstation developers as they are now.  I figure they're trying to avoid a monopoly.  Note that with Capcom it's not the company as a whole that supports them but rather a few teams that strive on creativity (ie: artists that feel threatened instead of company execs who only see green).

As for why any third party would seemingly hate Nintendo (aside from past issues) well I figure they don't want the Cube to succeed in hope that all of those Nintendo fans would then buy a PS2 and thus contribute to the sales of PS2 exclusive games.  Of course if that's the case the joke's on them because then they would have to compete DIRECTLY with Nintendo, a company that could easily become the top Japanese third party.

Offline Hostile Creation

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RE:Is there a hidden grudge/bias towards Nintendo?
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2004, 11:55:31 AM »
If Nintendo weren't so harsh starting out, I doubt they'd still be alive today, or they'd be dead by next generation at least.  That's what you do when you have a monopoly.  It's not about being nice, it's about getting paid.
And for the game developers, making their games.  The creative minds in the company, I think, are more concerned about that, and that's part of the reason that so many companies support Nintendo in some way: respect.  Not many American developers do, because they just make crappy, uninspired games and can't understand it.

And other stuff, but I got bored.  Oh well.
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Offline Djunknown

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RE: Is there a hidden grudge/bias towards Nintendo?
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2004, 03:38:43 PM »
I've said before there's a media conspiracy to destroy Nintendo, but that's a bit off base.

One company that I think may have a grudge towards them is Tecmo.  I believe they have the monster rancher series on the GBA, but considering that the the upcoming Ninja Gaiden for the 'Box is supposed to have the original NES games hidden, is kind of a slap in the face.  Itataki(?) from Team Ninja has been slick in not directly mentioning Ninja Gaiden's origins in interviews; I'm surprised he didn't blast the big N.



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Offline Bill Aurion

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RE: Is there a hidden grudge/bias towards Nintendo?
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2004, 04:08:03 PM »
Not to mention the fact that in a poll on Tecmo's own site, most gamers wanted Ninja Gaiden to be on the GC...That really ticked me off...
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Offline Ocarina Blue

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RE: Is there a hidden grudge/bias towards Nintendo?
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2004, 04:50:43 PM »
There is no excuse for acting like Nintendo did earlier. If Sony hadn't of stood up, Nintendo could have turned into some sort of console-Microsoft by now, with Sega's failing and all. The law is, in theory at least, an amalgination of the general population's morals. Monopolies ceartanly clash harshly with my ethics, and clearly many other's as they're against the law in almost every country in the world. I can understand alot of people (developers, publishers or otherwise) holding a grudge against them for it.

The horrendous media is a little wierd, but not completly uncanny. I mean, the misconception is easy to make: Mario, Zelda and to some extent, Pokemon are all games that are suitable for children to play. They also represent Nintendo more than Metriod or F-Zero do. Nintendo's horrendous advetising no doubt doesn't help.

The summary of my opinions: conspiracy against Nintendo, no. Grudge towards Nintendo, maybe. Bias towards Nintendo, definatley; these boards are proof enough.
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Offline Renny

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RE: Is there a hidden grudge/bias towards Nintendo?
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2004, 04:26:31 AM »
I just wanted to point out that Sony doesn't offer total freedom for its publishers. They've turned down games because they thought there would be too much competition in that genre/niche. They  censored BMX XXX. They paid off Ubi Soft for timed exclusivity of PoP and BG&E in Europe. Yada yada. I'm not debating these decisions, just saying that they are displaying some of Nintendo's old traits. That publishers want to balance the power of game companies sounds dead-on, and I'm glad there's this competition to keep any one of them from becoming what Nintendo was.
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Is there a hidden grudge/bias towards Nintendo?
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2004, 06:10:47 AM »
"They paid off Ubi Soft for timed exclusivity of PoP and BG&E in Europe."

How is this a bad thing?  Ubi Soft gets some extra change in their pocket and Sony gets the games first.  Seems like win-win to me.  Maybe gamers don't like it but I'm pretty sure Ubi Soft had no problem.  All three companies do it and third parties have no problem with it.  They like money hats.

"One company that I think may have a grudge towards them is Tecmo. I believe they have the monster rancher series on the GBA, but considering that the the upcoming Ninja Gaiden for the 'Box is supposed to have the original NES games hidden, is kind of a slap in the face. Itataki(?) from Team Ninja has been slick in not directly mentioning Ninja Gaiden's origins in interviews; I'm surprised he didn't blast the big N."

I don't quite see why Tecmo would have a grudge against Nintendo.  It's not like Nintendo screwed them over or anything.  They're fiercely pro-MS which thus would make them a little anti-Nintendo.

Offline The Omen

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RE:Is there a hidden grudge/bias towards Nintendo?
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2004, 06:31:49 AM »
Quote

They're fiercely pro-MS which thus would make them a little anti-Nintendo.


I think Tecmo being pro MS is because they are anti-Nintendo.
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Is there a hidden grudge/bias towards Nintendo?
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2004, 06:36:58 AM »
"I think Tecmo being pro MS is because they are anti-Nintendo."

I think it's because they realize that they're a second tier Japanese developer at best whose only claim to fame for the last few years is a generic Virtua Fighter/Tekken clone with hot chicks.  Thus they support the Xbox exclusively so they don't have to compete as much with Capcom, Konami, Square, Sega & Namco and are by default the top selling Xbox developer in Japan.

Offline Renny

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RE:Is there a hidden grudge/bias towards Nintendo?
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2004, 06:55:25 AM »
I said I wasn't suggesting one way or the other whether these actions are appropriate. Just that they are reminiscent of old Nintendo. If Sony didn't have any significant competition now, you can bet they'd be even more like Nintendo used to be. I guess it was a bad example none-the-less, since you're right; Ubi can just blame poor sales on Nintendo when they release after the holiday season. :¬]
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Is there a hidden grudge/bias towards Nintendo?
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2004, 08:17:49 AM »
Ian: Considering the number of good fighting games on the GC it wouldn't have been hard for DoA to sell on it, either.

Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Is there a hidden grudge/bias towards Nintendo?
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2004, 10:23:25 AM »
"Ian: Considering the number of good fighting games on the GC it wouldn't have been hard for DoA to sell on it, either."

True but there is a good number of decent Japanese games which is not the case with the Xbox.  DOA3 isn't just the top Xbox game in Japan because it's a decent fighting game, it's the top Xbox game because it's the best game that appeals to a Japanese audience.

Offline Draygaia

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RE: Is there a hidden grudge/bias towards Nintendo?
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2004, 01:10:11 PM »
Well I don't know about grudge but I believe some developers that mainly make PC and xbox games make fun of Nintendo.
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Offline ThePerm

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RE: Is there a hidden grudge/bias towards Nintendo?
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2004, 01:38:32 PM »
the problem with the industry nowadays is content control...recently we canceled my cable and will be getting direct tv shortly. Anyways, i dug out a ton of unlabled tapes. Anyways there is alot of 80s B movies and they reminded me of crappy games. Right now the  industry is putting out B-games in too high of volume. The resources arent going where they should. Some devlopers are startign to make less games and are producing higher quality..some are slipping into some sort of genius(ubi soft).
The problem with sony is it lacks flood control. The industry isnt pulling the numbers it was a few years ago because consumers don't know what to buy. There are too many shitty games and kids and causal gamers are clueless. The clueless people buy random crap because they like the cover....this makes me think of my friend with an xbox. He has halo, morrowind, and prince of persia(i told him to buy it...only good game he has) and some other games....anyways...he doesnt think about what game he's gonna get. He jsut buys one he thinks is gonna be cool. Anyways on the other hand i have like 25 games on my gamecube and i'm betting most people with a gamecube havea similar selection of games(meaning theres gonna be higher sells for the company releasing the games).....there is leadership on the nitnendo side.....nintendo fans know about the games that are coming out and pretty much only buy games that are rated highly. So im bettign the tie in ratio for gamecube is currently huge.....
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Offline oohhboy

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RE: Is there a hidden grudge/bias towards Nintendo?
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2004, 02:53:59 AM »
While it is true that Nintendo did virutally have control of the market during the 8-Bit days, the next generation was something else. During the 16-bit generation Sega did have a strong beach head in the console industry with a respectable percentage of the market share which climbed during the Mortal Combat fiasco, only to be punished by the release of Donkey Kong Country. But never the less, sega did hold several countries fairly tightl, like New Zealand. Laugh as you may, this was Sega country. Games were good back then because the competition was just right, no one company outright dominated ot dominate, nor could one or the other ingore each other. Also the mind set of the developers were different back then, with most of the with the solid knowledge that a good game will sell well and a bad game will not.

Now days it is ALL about the bottom line. Not that it is a bad idea bussines wise, but for a gaming company it is not ideal as games are your bottom line and a majority of the companies these days don't stop and ask themselfs "Is this a good game?" and Joe Gas station isn't helping. no longer are companies being punished for releasing bad games ala "Enter the Martix". Whie it is true that people that buy Nintendo do have a stronger taste in games and are more likely to spot a god game, like an unstoppable wave Joe Gas station will finish pumoing his gas, get a game with no knowledge of what he is getting and think he is playing a good game. Unless enough of these people go out and buy outright Bad games enough times to care of what they buy, quality with continue to drop across the board.

Look at TV, flooded with junk reality show, music with thier factory manufactured groups. Where are my Macgyvers? My futureramas, Family guys? Star the Next Generation or Voyagers? Why do I have all this pusado-cool shows like Fast Lane and The Handler that tries too much to have an image? Chessy is better than fake.

They call it progress, but this is dumbing down of cultural intelligence is not.
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Offline ThePerm

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RE: Is there a hidden grudge/bias towards Nintendo?
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2004, 07:43:12 AM »
damnit Macgyver kicks ass!!!
ok im going to say this...if you like Mcgyver then youll prolly like Monk even though they are completley different.
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Offline oohhboy

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RE: Is there a hidden grudge/bias towards Nintendo?
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2004, 12:47:47 AM »
Actually I hate Monk. He is the saddest excuse for a detective ever. It is like watching Everybody loves Raymond with only Raymond sitting in a room ranting to himself about how he is not getting any. Not good. Not at all.
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Offline Uncle Rich AiAi

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RE:Is there a hidden grudge/bias towards Nintendo?
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2004, 01:38:18 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: oohhboy
Look at TV, flooded with junk reality show, music with thier factory manufactured groups. Where are my Macgyvers? My futureramas, Family guys? Star the Next Generation or Voyagers? Why do I have all this pusado-cool shows like Fast Lane and The Handler that tries too much to have an image? Chessy is better than fake.



I hate reality TV shows.  I consider them to be one of the worst invention....ever.

Offline Metaphysical Spirit

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RE:Is there a hidden grudge/bias towards Nintendo?
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2004, 10:26:23 AM »
With the whole 8-Bit days of Nintendo, they did what they needed to do. Why hold a grudge for that? Nintendo started off as a card playing company. Since Space Invaders came out in the arcade (Which ultimitly made a Coin Shortage in Japan becuase it was such a big hit and needed to make triple the amount of coins) and then came Pac Man and did the same thing. What did Nintendo do, they created a charactered for the arcade. They took the old concept of what I can't remember the name right now, but it was the creation of early Mario before he was actually called Mario. They created a game called Monkey Kong, but becuase of a smudge in the papers and bad copying, it came out as Donkey Kong. Since all the arcades said Donkey Kong and would cost millions to change the name, they kept it. While this was going on, a lot of "Atari" type consoles were coming out, so then NES came out. NES started to create a shortage on Arcade games. Nintento was then sued for having a monopoly, and becuase they had soo much money in the bank. To solve this, if you filled out those survey forms with the NES games and sent them back, you would receive a Nitendo Buck, which was out of their bank and now you could only use this to buy Nintendo Related Products, so then you would be buying MORE Nintendo pruducts with their money. They created over 1,000 games for the system. At this time, this was a HUGE industry and that was totally fresh and creating money shortages in countries. NES created power for the Nintendo, and so did the arcade business. Why wouldn't you be soo strict with companies working for you? When Sega and SNES came out, that was such a huge rival that both companies needed to step it up and make sure they hold their business, and their partners. Could this have created a grudge for the future, possibly? You have to put yourself in their shoes, AT THAT TIME. We have to stop looking at company morales back in the early 90s (And late 80s), with the way companies hold themselves now. The business has changed. Look at N64 vs Sony. A lot of people would argue the fact that if you would look at PS games.. there would be like a ratio of 4 games for every N64 game. Thats a lot of games, but how many of those games were worth playing or even looking at? There were a lot of games that flopped for the PS. Now look at N64 and they had quality in a lot of their games. Its not the amount of games that come out for a system, but how well they were built. You also have to remember around the NES-N64 days, the computer held a huge stronghold on videogames. This wasn't becuase of Microsoft, but in my opinion, I think Microsoft takes credit for the success of a lot of computer games and thought they would do good with a console. Its all propraganda. Media sucks now a days. Why is it soo easy to brainwash people now, then it was back then? I don't think people are looking at what really matters, but what "The Commercial Vision" is. Example : Online Play. Everyone wants it, but it's not a strong industry that consoles hold. You want to play online, you get a computer and a videogame. Another example : Nintendo is for Kids. Is that true, Not really. Do other people see that, no becuase of what the media brainwashes us... especially in America. My point really is, I don't think it's grudges. I think it's just the industry has changed and now businesses are using low blows and currupt ways to take out other companies, but it's not even for the love of games anymore, its about the money.  
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Is there a hidden grudge/bias towards Nintendo?
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2004, 07:41:16 AM »
"Games were good back then because the competition was just right, no one company outright dominated ot dominate, nor could one or the other ingore each other. Also the mind set of the developers were different back then, with most of the with the solid knowledge that a good game will sell well and a bad game will not."

Make no mistake: even then it was still about the moolah.  But I agree that games as a whole were better then.  And I know this isn't just nostalgia talking.  I play licenced games from that time period today and they're actually good.  It's unreal to be playing a game based on a popular movie like Alladin and having it be actually really good.  Anyway I think the big difference between then and now is that then the two major console makers were both also quality developers.  Sega and Nintendo made the best games in the world back then.  They TRAINED their userbase to appreciate quality gaming so if you wanted to sell your games on the Genesis or SNES it BETTER have been good.

Sony and MS are NOT quality game developers.  They aren't even really game developers period.  One is an electronics giant and the other is a major PC developer.  Both publish some decent games once in a while (ICO, Halo) but neither is really known for making quality games.  Thus they haven't trained their userbase to appreciate quality gaming so a huge chunk of the market has considerably lower standards, favours graphics and realism over gameplay and fantasy, and doesn't take as many risks with new ideas and games.  The industry NEEDS companies on top that have a real passion for gaming as well as good business sense.

Offline Metaphysical Spirit

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RE: Is there a hidden grudge/bias towards Nintendo?
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2004, 08:22:03 PM »
I agree with you 100% Ian.

"It's better to wait and have quality, then to rush a game just to get it out"
-That's definatly what Sony and MS are missing
They bring out tons of games of all kinds, but which ones are good?
If Sony or MS are making a game, Is it gaurenteed to be great? At least decent? Nintendo has the reputation of making quality games. Nintendo has been around for many years, and still has its morales. Maybe those gaming morales are old and need to be fresh, but they do work and they don't spit out crap and let advertisment sell the game.

You guys actually know that for SNES, Sony and Nintendo were working together to make a CD-Rom HD for the SNES and the idea fell apart? Then came N64 and Sony, and amazingly Sony used Nintendo not using CDs for their games as a downfall.  
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