Topic: Lieberman Talks Videogame Violence... Again

[Scyth3r]

The ESRB rating system, is nothing more than suggestion.  

However, I do believe there is somethign wrong w/ 10 year olds or so playing games like GTA.   However, I do believe Lieberman is pointing the finger at the wrong direction.   It should be pointing at parents first for being so god damn stupid to buy their child such violent video games.

[mouse_clicker]

"Let him see he’s wrong and then we'll be done with it. Badda-Bing Badda-Boom."

It's not that easy- even IF the study shows that violent games do not make kids violent, they'll twist whatever facts they have to prove that it DOES. The Heart and Lung Association did the same thing with second hand smoking- in actuality, second hand smoke does pretty much diddly squat to someone beyond making them gag, but the Heart and Lung Association twisted the facts to make it SEEM like second hand smoke kills so they'd get notoriety.

And *notoriety* is the reason I don't think we should give a rat's ass about what Lieberman is trying to say because it's all politics- I'm not saying he doesn't believe what he's pushing for, but the only reason he's pushing for it is to gain the votes of all the "concerned" (read: smothering) parents out there who don't want their child to experience the world. I thought some of you would've realized the way American politics work by now. The FACT is that violent videogames won't make a mentally healthy person go out and kill someone, or even hurt someone. If they are influenced to murder another human being after playing a game like Grand Theft Auto then they are most likely criminally insane and shouldn't have been playing the game in the first place. I'm tired of people trying to find a scapegoat for their child's actions. Whatever they do they decided to do- a videogame didn't decide for them. If the parents are really concerned that their kid shouldn't be playing a certain kind of game, they should a) use the ESRB rating system (it's their for a reason, people), b) monitor what their kid is watching in case they don't agree with the rating, and c) stop trying to change society to meet their own messed up kid's needs. You don't think GTA's a good game? Well more power to you, but it hardly needs to be banned. Hell, it had an M rating and by law shouldn't have been sold to anyone under 17- what more do you people WANT? Anything beyond that would infringe on our most sacred freedom of expression. Do videogames affect people? Most likely, but only in small ways- getting aggravated when you're losing a game or getting beaten by someone else. Will a videogame make you actually hurt someone? Not unless you had it in you to begin with. He may claim it was the videogame that brought it out, but it was the KID who made the decision to go out and hurt people. Don't try to weasel out of it and blame that on videogames. I think Lieberman's study will be a complete and utter waste of money- until perfectly sane people in mass droves start killing people, THEN maybe he'll have a case, but I've been a gamer since I was 3 and have never had a violent moment, nor have any gamers I know. His case simply does not hold water and is only in the light because he wants votes he'll never get anyway (maybe he should join an independent party- at least their the number of votes he'll get will *seem* like a lot). I'm really surprised that some gamers actually BELIEVE him. Some of you are a lot more gullible than I thought. Stop following the shepherd and start forming your own path.

[The Omen]

The major point is he is taking on a medium that is far down the list of problems.  If he wants to get to the heart of the matter, how about looking at kids who have virtually no father figure?  They are damaged beyond belief.  Or kids who are abused?  Kids who are mocked in school?  The list goes on and on.  The reason he chooses to champion this cause, is that it is a very small task compared to the real issues, which we still have no answers for.  You people have one point that young kids shouldn't be given access to these violent games, but you also ignore that there is violence readily available in every industry for those who seek it.  Kids included.  Unless he plans on doing an overhall of the entire entertainment industry, news channels, the internet and countless other sectors, his argument has very little merit.   You can't focus on the 'flavor of the month', and expect intelligent people to buy your argument.

P.S. -I'm fairly certain when people say they wish he would croak already, they're not actually wishing death upon him.  Its just to get a point accross at how annoyed most people are with this petty attempt at reform.

[rpglover]

personally i have been playing videogames for years and have played my share of "M" rated ones when i was younger too (mk comes to mind)
but i still do not think that videogame violence is leading to violence in people. i think lieberman is trying to find another scapegoat to why violence happens in society and he can point to videogames- mostly because the most popular ones (gta 3/ vice city) are not only making the most money and selling the most, they are also some of the most violent ones.  but as others have said, the "M" rating is there on the boxes of the games for a reason- to show that you should be at this age to buy this game as the stuff in it could be innapropiate for younger players.  i do not have a problem with them trying to enforce the law, but i dont think that videogames are the reason for the violence and be all end all to it.  i have many "M" rated games but i am not a violent person, i dont kill anyone- it is just human for us all to find someone to blame- look at the adam and eve story for example....  i dont think that videogame violence encourages others to become more violent but i do believe people love to blame someone or something else than just come out and say that i did it and it was wrong and it was all my fault.  maybe when that happens then society can become a little better but right now i just dont see it happening.

[Ninja X]

Bet that this study will show kids who play violent video games are violent...

I'm still astonished on why Lieberman won't go after movies or music, more popular forms of entertainment than video games.  He's just one of those pricks after popularity, and he is going to degrade video games in order to do it.  Fucker...why don't you concentrate on issues such as poverty or crime?

[LOP Posse]

I'm sick of the often repeated argument that goes like this "I have played violent video games all my lif and I'm not violent, so that proves that video games don't make you violent"  

So you conducted your own research? What was your sample size? (oh wait it was just one)  What was your control group (oh wait you don't even know what a control group is).   Your own experiences are in know way proof applicable to all of Society.  

I likewise am skeptical of Lieberman's study (Even though he will try to have a large enough smaple group, and a control group)  With an issue like this it is much to dificult to single out one issue with youth over a long period of time because of all the factors of ethics that would come into place in trying to control every aspect of the study subject's life.  The most that could be claimed is that the study showed that there was a correlation between violence and video games.  As every research scientist will tell you, correlation does not equal causation.

[Bloodworth]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ninja X
Fucker...why don't you concentrate on issues such as poverty or crime?

Keep spewing stuff like that and you will be banned.  Looks like we've got another word that needs to be added to the list.

[Bloodworth]

Everyone needs to calm down and stop overreacting here.  Illini4 and Rellik made some great posts that some of you need to listen to.

Lieberman's stance is not unique or uninformed.  In fact Yu Suzuki and Miyamoto-san both expressed similar concerns during their seminar at DICE.  

I personally have known teenagers who have made chilling comments like "Wouldn't it be cool if I just went crazy and started killing people like in GTA," fantasizing over the possibilities.  Common sense should lead you to believe that if you make life-like violence attractive and rewarding, it will increase violence in our communities.  Yes, there should be more parental involvement, but unless you want the government micro-managing your family, it's not an easy goal to acheive.  

I still have to look closer at all of Lieberman's statements before I can say whether I agree or disagree, but I do think that ratings should be enforced and that game creators should be more responsible with the kind of content they put out.

[The Omen]

Quote
I personally have known teenagers who have made chilling comments like "Wouldn't it be cool if I just went crazy and started killing people like in GTA," fantasizing over the possibilities.

Bloodworth, did it ever occur to you that the kid has other problems and is just using GTA as another outlet?  There are millions of kids with deep rooted emotional problems who will enjoy carnage in EVERY aspect of their life.  What if these teenagers watched the war coverage and said, 'wouldn't it be cool if we could shoot up people with rocket propelled grenades?' .  Point being, it's not the war coverage thats making him think in those violent terms, it's just another outlet for their own inbedded violence.  Do teens today care less than the previous generation about life?  Sure, but that gets worse with every generation. Even before Video games.  Its the fragmented family that is making these children walk around without a care in the world.  Increasing isolation is a cause as well.  Columbine is another example of video games and music being scapegoats.  In my opinion, those kids had deep emotional problems, but we don't want to look deeper, we just go at face value.  It's ridiculous that some people actually believe that entertainment CAUSES violence.  It may lessen the emotional impact of violence, but it doesn't CAUSE violence.  I think these mediums are often OUTLETS for their violent behavior, not the reason they exude this behavior.  Why doesn't Lieberman take a stand on the real issue?  Because there is no publicity in dealing with it.

I do believe that kids are getting their hands on games they shouldn't, but to blame games is to easy.  Search for the deeper problems in an individual.

[Bloodworth]

To make it clear, I don't believe in blaming games (or anything really) for a person's actions.  But at the same time, I do believe that there are negative impacts that need to be taken seriously, and if you're going to make a mature product, you need to handle it in a mature manner.

[TheGlueBubble]

Why does everyone think he is talking out of his ass? In my opinion T.V. and videogames can be very desensitizing, and I think that the ESRB ratings need to be inforced very strongly. No one underage should be able to but M rated games, not even me. I don't even think I would care much. To me M rated games have mostly been uninteresting. The only M rated games I have ever owned are Resident Evil Remake, Perfect Dark and Eternal Darkness. Compare that to the 20-30 E and T rated games I own. And it's not like I have strict parents or anything. I think Lieberman is completely right and I hope the ESRB ratings get enforced by law.

[The Omen]

  Nobody is arguing that the ESRB ratings should be enforced. But that's all I see that has to be done.  I just think Mr. Lieberman is overreacting.  Kids watch the news, don't they?  Thats as desensitizing as anything, to tell you the truth.  But it still doesn't create the problem, it may just give another avenue to express the already present violent behavior.  That's all i'm saying.

[Ninja X]

Quote
Originally posted by: Bloodworth

Quote
Originally posted by: Ninja X
Fucker...why don't you concentrate on issues such as poverty or crime?

Keep spewing stuff like that and you will be banned.  Looks like we've got another word that needs to be added to the list.

Sorry about that, then.

[mouse_clicker]

"I'm sick of the often repeated argument that goes like this "I have played violent video games all my lif and I'm not violent, so that proves that video games don't make you violent" "

Sure it's not scientific research, but you HAVE to give SOME credibility to people who have lived all their lives playing violent games and don't have an ounce of violence in them. If Lieberman's right, we should all be out there shooting people. But why aren't we? Because only people who are insane to begin with actually follow through with it. If THAT'S not common sense, then Lieberman has no right to even think about opressing our hobby.

"I personally have known teenagers who have made chilling comments like "Wouldn't it be cool if I just went crazy and started killing people like in GTA," fantasizing over the possibilities. Common sense should lead you to believe that if you make life-like violence attractive and rewarding, it will increase violence in our communities. Yes, there should be more parental involvement, but unless you want the government micro-managing your family, it's not an easy goal to acheive. "

First of all, do you actually think these teenagers would go through with it? I say "I"ll kill you!" as a joke many times a day, but I would never actually DO it. I have problems even hurting insects, much less actually taking the life of a fellow human being. If you think these kids WILL actually kill someone, well they're most likely criminally insane and shouldn't have been playing the game in the first place. It's not the GAME'S fault that a kid goes out and shoots someone, it's the KIDS fault- he's the one that made the decision to reenact that videogame. Why don't we blame the kid? You want to know why? Because we have this BS view of kids that they're innocent little angels and anything they do is the fault of socity and outside "influences" rather than the kids own deranged mind. If a kid is inspired to repeat what he saw in a game, he shouldn't have been playing games in the first place. His parents or guardians should've monitored what he played and how he reacted to what he played and made the right actions to inhibit violent behavior. If they didn't, again, THAT'S NOT THE GAME'S FAULT. When are people going to learn that humans have free will- whatever we do we chose to do on our own. I'm not saying a game will never influence someone to kill someone else, just that it will NEVER happen to a perfectly sane individual who was brought up to differentiate between fact and fiction. We shouldn't be conforming videogames to meet the lowest common denominator, the lowest common denominator shouldn't be playing videogames. Lieberman's case holds absolutely no water, is a complete and utter waste of tax payers' money (which could go toward important things, like health care, the national debt, the war- almost anything's better), and only exists for two reasons- One, because neglectful and smothering parents don't want to admit their kids are crazy if they kill people, and so Lieberman can get votes from said people (which is pointless anyway because we ALL know he won't even win the Democratic primary). Frankly, I'm surprised ANYONE believe Leiberman's bull$#!t.

[ArmchairAthlete]

"Lieberman said in the statement that the game links violence with sex and rewards players for degrading and killing women. "This is sick and indefensible," Lieberman said. "But beyond being offensive to our values, we should know whether this is helping to nurture misogynistic views and behaviors among young boys."  "

I don't recall any particular mission in GTA3 that was all about "degrading and killing women". Sure there are hookers (just like in real life!), but it's your decision if you're gonna kill em & take back your cash not that it even matters.

"But beyond being offensive to our values"

Whose values? Certaintly not mine. Does this moron think he can force *HIS* values on everyone?


Somebody should snipe this arsehole, thank god him and the "guy who invented the internet" lost the election. People like this make me furious >_<.

The video game industry is probably too huge by now for them to mess with at least.

[The Caucasian Cubist]

People calm down. i think most of you are getting all uppety because you think that just because you've been playing video games all your life and Lieberman has not, that he can't make an observation on video games. not true. So just let the man speak.

And to the person who said something to the extent that the other people were just joking, they dont really want him to die, I still disagree. Iti s still showing these people are immoralized and desensitized to murder and can't think of any good comeback besides some creative form of "Die, lieberman, go to hell."

And then there was the idiot who I believe had the post right before this one, who said something about "just cuz there are hookers in the game (just like in real life!) doesnt mean the game intends to degrade and [something, I forget] women. The people don't HAVE to take the hooker and then kill her, so shut up Joe!"    Man you are just stupid. It isnt bad enough that the hooker is there and it is possible to have sex with her then kill her? Whatever you think, the game is encouraging you to have sex with her then killl her, or else it wouldn't be programmed into the game.  And then you are all [the same guy, not you-all; as in y'all] like, "He houldn't try to impose *HIS* views on others." Not true. Simmer down. Heaven forbid he try to implant the thought in others that being serviced by a hooker then killing her is wrong; The JERK! This is what America is all about. he can say what he thinks all he wants, and try to spread his views; that is what you and I are doing right now, so don't be hypocritical.

[The Caucasian Cubist]

Forgive the double-post but I thought of more to say and it wouldn't let me edit.

I'm sure he has kids or has bserved the influence of video games on kids he knows, and even if he doesn't it is fine for him to do what he's doing; more power to him.

OH man and you said " "But beyond being offensive to our values" Whose values? Certaintly not mine. "   That's not against your values? What are your values? Murder and rape are ok? Do you stand up for anything, man? I think it is a pretty common value that killing people on the streets and having sex with hookers is wrong.  

[mouse_clicker]

"So just let the man speak."

I HAVE let him speak and he has absolutely NOTHING to say that actually means anything. Honestly, why are you giving him credit? It's all politics.

"And to the person who said something to the extent that the other people were just joking, they dont really want him to die, I still disagree. Iti s still showing these people are immoralized and desensitized to murder and can't think of any good comeback besides some creative form of "Die, lieberman, go to hell.""

Ohh, so now we can't joke? Is that it? If we make a joking comment, we're suddennly immoral? Sure maybe people can think fo better things to say, but you're just a mindless sheep if you think videogames caused that. Some people just aren't that creative- get over it. You want a good insult ofr Lieberman? Okay, the man is a completely insane lunatic who obviously can't accept the fact that people are responsilbe for their own actions, NOT movies or books or games. Maybe he can't come to that realization because he's a politician, but the man's story holds NO water whatsoever. Anyone who claims it does obviously hasn't listened to him like they say we should.

"Man you are just stupid. It isnt bad enough that the hooker is there and it is possible to have sex with her then kill her? Whatever you think, the game is encouraging you to have sex with her then killl her, or else it wouldn't be programmed into the game."

You're just as stupid! We have this little thing in America called freedom of expression. What Lieberman is trying to do is restrict our 1st ammendment, which is nothing less than unconstitutional. Sure, maybe GTA IS degrading to women, but where's the law that says we have to be politically correct? Because there are hookers in the game we shoudl BAN it? If you ask me, that's unpatriotic. If you don't think that's right, DON'T PLAY THE GAME. Why that escapes Lieberman escapes me, but nobody's forcing anyone to play GTA.

And I do agree we'd be better off without Lieberman- it's people like HIM that make American politics such a joke.

"And then you are all [the same guy, not you-all; as in y'all] like, "He houldn't try to impose *HIS* views on others." Not true. Simmer down. Heaven forbid he try to implant the thought in others that being serviced by a hooker then killing her is wrong; The JERK! This is what America is all about. he can say what he thinks all he wants, and try to spread his views; that is what you and I are doing right now, so don't be hypocritical."

Excuse me, but it seems you're a bit took quick to call him a jerk. So if Lieberman has the right to express his thoughts, why can't the man you just quoted several times? YOU'RE the hypocrite if you don't think he should be able to say what he thinks.

And Lieberman ISN'T just spouting out crap. Listen to this very carefully- HE'S SPENDING TAXPAYERS' MONEY RESEARCHING SOMETHING THAT WE ALL KNOW IS UTTERLY POINTLESS. And when he's twisted the results of that research to show games make people kill, he's going to try to get games like GTA banned, which, as I've said innumerous times, IS AGAINST THE CONSTITUTION. I don't CARE if he doesn't like the game- he doesn't have to play it- but he shouldn't ruin it for all of us who DO like the game. THAT is a little beyond expressing his opinion. If he just expressed his opinion that videogames cause violence, I wouldn't care- I'd disagree, but I wouldn't care. But the FACT of the matter is that he's trying to conform the videogame industry to what HE thinks it should be like, and anyone claiming that's okay is obviously insane themselves.

[The Caucasian Cubist]

It is not all politics. You're making too many generalizations trying to back up your story. Is it too suspicious of him to look like he cares about America's kids. Next, I think that the games do have an affect on people; But there's not much I can do to convince you, and likewise you can't convince me otherwise, so I won't go down that alley right now. Furthermore, I don't think you understood my part about the guy. I was calling Liberman a jerk sarcastically in that line, not the guy. I am not a hypocrite. I said That what we were trying to do was convince each other just like Liebrman is, I was letting him argue, and I am doing my part, too. "it's people like HIM that make American politics such a joke." I can't believe how ridiculous this is. just because he doesn't agree with you, he is turning American politics into a joke? I don't get it. "the man's story holds NO water whatsoever" Not true. "HE'S SPENDING TAXPAYERS' MONEY RESEARCHING SOMETHING THAT WE ALL KNOW IS UTTERLY POINTLESS." No, no, no. Is he spending taxpayer's money? I honestly don't know, but I doubt it. link me if it's true. And it's definitely not pointless. You're just stupid. "I HAVE let him speak and he has absolutely NOTHING to say that actually means anything" if what he says doesn't mean anything, why are we having such a heated debate? FYI I never said anything about banning it. And about the anti-constitution stuff; The constitution gets broken all the time. One example is how it is now legal to murder babies.

[mouse_clicker]

"It is not all politics. You're making too many generalizations trying to back up your story. Is it too suspicious of him to look like he cares about America's kids."

You're obviously blind- sure, maybe he actually believes what he's saying, but you HAVE to admit the only reason he's making it such an issue, when it ISN'T an issue (gamers killing people isn't an epidemic), is to get votes from concerned and smothering parents. That's just the way politics work, sad as it is. I'm glad he's conerned for kids, but there's a difference between "concerned" and "smothering". Teaching your kid to drive safely is one thing, but not letting them drive at all for fear of their well being is smothering.

"Next, I think that the games do have an affect on people; But there's not much I can do to convince you, and likewise you can't convince me otherwise, so I won't go down that alley right now."

Well it's obvious games affect people- I may get aggrivated at a hard game, etc, but I'm not going to KILL or HURT people, and that's what Lieberman is claiming. Maybe if I had a mental disorder, but like I've been saying, people who are mental shouldn't play games and it's not the developers fault if they flip out.

"Furthermore, I don't think you understood my part about the guy. I was calling Liberman a jerk sarcastically in that line, not the guy. I am not a hypocrite."

I'm sorry for misreading that- my mistake.

"I can't believe how ridiculous this is. just because he doesn't agree with you, he is turning American politics into a joke?"

Jesus Christ- you must be mental yourself, or at least missed the day they taught you how to read in first grade. I DIDN'T say he was the reason American politics is a joke because he disagrees- don't put words into my mouth. I SAID, if you had read my post, that people like him make American politics a joke because he's trying to restrict and ban games simply because he thinks they're demorilizing or because they make kids go out and kill people and he's wasting money and time acting like it's an issue (I've already named several things that would deserve much more of his attention, especially if by some crazy chance he actually became president).

"No, no, no. Is he spending taxpayer's money? I honestly don't know, but I doubt it. link me if it's true."

Last I checked researches instigated BY the government use GOVERNMENT money, which is made by TAXING American citizens. I don't need a link to prove that and if you had any common sense you would've realized it.

"And it's definitely not pointless. You're just stupid."

What a great defense- it's not pointless becase I'm stupid? Name me how many people killed or seriously injured other people while reenacting a videogame? I fail to see how it's not PAINFULLY obvious that videogames do not make perfectly sane people kill. Tell me, have you ever had the urge to kill someone after playing a game? And I mean REALLY kill someone, not just say so in a rage? Do you know ANY gamers who have killed or mgiht have killed someone because of a videogame? If so, please tell me because I MIGHT consider labeling this study one step above irrelevant.


"if what he says doesn't mean anything, why are we having such a heated debate?"

Because I'm a loser message board junkie and Electronics Boutique doesn't have Burnout 2 in yet. Aside from that, I'm having such a heated debate because I'd LIKE to see a soul saved from the bottomless depths of his infinite bull$#!t.

"And about the anti-constitution stuff; The constitution gets broken all the time. One example is how it is now legal to murder babies."

I REALLY don't want to get into an abortion debate, but up until 4 or so months before birth, a "baby" can be classified as nothing more than goo. I think it's bad that women get abortions- putting your baby up for adoption is a much MUCH better choice- and am vehemently opposed to abortion if the baby stands even a small chance of surviving outside the womb, but otherwise they're really just a collection of cells with no consciousness whatsoever. I don't think abortions are right, since those collections of cells do BECOME human beings, but it's not murder in my humble opinion.

And in any case, how does one alleged unconstitutional act make another one okay? So in your eyes, since it's legal to "murder babies", that makes it perfectly fine to ban videogames, music, books, even movies? That's an odd logic you have there.

[The Caucasian Cubist]

Ok, before I end this let me say a few things. I am not for political correctness, AKA communism. And plus I didn'twant to start an abortion debate; I didnt think that line out well, so forget that.

Now I'm just going to stop arguing. it's not worth it. let's be friends. Don't worry, be happy. So on.

[Bloodworth]

Quote
Originally posted by: ArmchairAthlete
Somebody should snipe this arsehole

Gone.

[mouse_clicker]

Eh, it's just as much my fault- sorry I got carried away, it's just something I feel passionate about. Also, I was the one who carried on the abortion thing even thoguh I had said I didn't want to. Besides, we don't want to get banned.

[The Caucasian Cubist]

Like I said recently in another forum, there is just something about the internet forum that brings out the hostility in everyone. I think it's because you're trying to convince people you can't see and stuff...

[mouse_clicker]

Yep, forums definetly make people hostile- I think the major reason is that since you can't see or hear the other person, it's not as intense as it might be in person. When I intend on yelling at you, all I'm really doing is typing in all caps while if we were arguing in person, I'd be screaming at you, which might tip off my "extremity" meter a bit sooner. That said, I did have a bit of an adrenaline rush after posting my last big post. I really get into stuff like this.