Author Topic: Super Smash Bros. Melee at Evolution 2007  (Read 11924 times)

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Offline Arbok

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Melee at Evolution 2007
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2007, 05:15:52 PM »
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Originally posted by: Dasmos
I don't really see how wavedashing is that helpful, except for edgehogging.


Do it with Luigi, it's amazing how quickly he can move across the level with it. Another huge plus of it is being able to do Smash attacks while moving.
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Offline Shift Key

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Melee at Evolution 2007
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2007, 12:21:37 AM »
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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
Non-Fox/Falco players need not apply.


I throw my gauntlet at your face. I lost count of the number of times that I've dominated Falco/Fox players using Link or Pikachu. Bring it.

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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Ian: Chaos is nice at a party but at a tournament you don't want random factors involved since you want to see how good these players are, not how much luck they have. Maybe SSBB could have a standardized item spawn order for tournaments that would avoid randomness but still involve item fighting skills...


Tell that to the people who lose a Mario Kart match because someone else got a lucky Thunderbolt or Red Shell.

There are some items that are damn cruel (a well-placed proximity mine that you forget about) and others that can be hilarious (the "chink" sound of the Home Run Bat when you get the timing right) but I say that items are part of what SSBM is about - they add a layer of luck to the fight. Take them out and you may as well go play DOA or something.

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Originally posted by: Galford
I just wish many of the people who played SSM went on to play other fighting games.  They don't they just stay with SSB because their sorta good at it and don't want to lose or try something harder.


Harder? No, just because other fighting games have a lot more buttons to use, doesn't make them any more harder than SSBM. I find SC, MK and other fighting games to be simply too linear. Sure, linking together a 25-hit-combo takes skill, but how will that help you if your opponent gains momentum in the fight? I guess real fighting games don't give much opportunity for swinging momentum (hence the 3 rounds per match) where I rather see a single match which lasts longer but gives people more chance to take control of the fight.

I remember having some epic battles with my brother on Hyrule Castle in SSBM (which is so badly designed but leaves a lot of areas to corner your opponent), and that was because you had to think about your surroundings at the same time as thinking about the fight. Position, items, opportunity, momentum.  Levels like Final Destination take away that SSB feel of the game and leave it as nothing more than a generic fighter.

Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Melee at Evolution 2007
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2007, 12:39:13 AM »
If you want to have randomness in the game you'd need a large number of matches to even that out in a tournament (because it'd suck to see a match go to the weaker player because of a lucky item spawn) so the better player will still win more. Since noone has the time to run multiple matches for each bracket the randomness gets minimized so the skill becomes apparent immediately.

Offline Shift Key

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Melee at Evolution 2007
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2007, 05:00:01 PM »
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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
If you want to have randomness in the game you'd need a large number of matches to even that out in a tournament (because it'd suck to see a match go to the weaker player because of a lucky item spawn) so the better player will still win more. Since noone has the time to run multiple matches for each bracket the randomness gets minimized so the skill becomes apparent immediately.


Its called multiple lives.

Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Melee at Evolution 2007
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2007, 05:39:15 PM »
Would still need to be 30+ to eliminate the effects of randomness. 3 lives means losing one to an unlucky bobomb spawn can turn the match.

Offline Shift Key

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Melee at Evolution 2007
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2007, 07:32:18 PM »
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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Would still need to be 30+ to eliminate the effects of randomness. 3 lives means losing one to an unlucky bobomb spawn can turn the match.


The good players deal with the Bobomb or GET THE HELL OUT OF THERE.

If you're still complaining about this then you should go back and play the game again. Its not that hard to see the items drop.

Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Melee at Evolution 2007
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2007, 01:56:18 AM »
It can still end up giving one player more power than the other by just finding more useful items.

Offline Smash_Brother

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Melee at Evolution 2007
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2007, 07:54:03 AM »
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Originally posted by: Shift Key The good players deal with the Bobomb or GET THE HELL OUT OF THERE.


Did you miss where I said...

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Sometimes, while playing SSBM, a player will just randomly explode and be hurled off the screen.

This phenomenon typically occurs while standing on an incline when a Bob-omb spawns right at your feet, hits the incline, rolls for .001 seconds, registers contact with the player and detonates.


I've seen this happen on quite a few occasions, especially with boxes. When there's zero time elapsing between when the item appears and starts to roll on top of you, it would take nothing short of Jedi powers of perception to avoid it.

Again, you DON'T want that in a tournament.

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Originally posted by: Shift Key I throw my gauntlet at your face. I lost count of the number of times that I've dominated Falco/Fox players using Link or Pikachu. Bring it.


Let's make a bet: If anyone gets into the top 5 in the 2007 Evo tournament with Link or Pikachu, I'll buy you the Wii game of your choice. Otherwise, you buy the Wii game of my choice for me.

Deal?
"OK, first we need someone to complain about something trivial. Golden or S_B should do. Then we get someone to defend the game, like Bill or Mashiro. Finally add some Unclebob or Pro666 randomness and the thread should go to hell right away." -Pap64

Offline UltimatePartyBear

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Melee at Evolution 2007
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2007, 10:31:56 AM »
On the one hand, I agree that the randomness in a tournament game needs to be mitigated.  On the other hand, the randomness and items and crazy stages are part of the game.  How can anyone who avoids all of that claim to be the best at the game?  It's like trying to set a world record for the number of times bouncing a ping pong ball on a paddle while whistling Dixie on top of a 43 story building at night in February.  Just keep adding enough conditions, and sooner or later you'll only have to be good enough to bounce a ping pong ball once.

Have you ever read this essay?  It seems to me that that argument could be used in support of wave-dashing.  I think it's okay to exploit wave-dashing even though it's a bug (and I hope it's gone in Brawl).  I can't pull it off, but I'd never enter a tournament with the expectation that it wouldn't be used against me, because anyone who whines that it shouldn't be allowed is, to use that essay writer's term, a scrub.  A scrub sets up rules of engagement, holding back his game.  In fact, he's not even playing the same game as competitive players.  To me, turning off items and only playing on two stages sounds extraordinarily scrublike.  Something random might happen and cost you* the match, you say?  That's part of the game.  You didn't get the best items?  That's part of the game.  Maybe you could have gotten the best items if you had ever learned how.  Maybe you could have made do with the items you got if you had learned how to use them.

I don't expect to change any minds.  I understand why tournaments are played that way.  I just think it's weak.  I might actually find it exciting to watch a replay of a tournament match if it weren't for all the limitations the players put on themselves.  As it is, the ones I've seen were very, very boring.

*This is a hypothetical you.  Not you, personally.

Offline Smash_Brother

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Melee at Evolution 2007
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2007, 10:55:44 AM »
I agree that it's boring, but the point of Evo and fighting game tournaments is to have relentless 1v1 combat, something that SSBM somehow has despite being intended as a 4 player party game with plenty of randomness.

In that sense, they're only competing on one aspect of the game, not the entire game. SSBM with random items and 4 players is a completely different game to what they'll be playing at Evo.

I likewise hope wavedashing is eliminated in Brawl.
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Offline Entroper

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Melee at Evolution 2007
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2007, 12:29:47 PM »
You can't play only on Final Destination.  The completely flat arena gives some characters an advantage, those who can fight better side to side.  Just like other arenas give vertically-oriented characters an advantage.

You can't play without items, items are an essential part of the game.  I can see an argument for eliminating, say, the Bob-omb, since they add too much randomness.  But most items don't have this problem.  Using items, getting to them quickly, preventing your opponent from using them, defending against item attacks, these are all important skills in Melee.

I also don't have a problem with 4-player matches in a tournament setting.  Keeping a level head, taking opportunities as they come, and avoiding being juggled by 3 other players are, once again, important skills.  If I were to design a tournament, there would be 4-player matches and 1v1 matches, and your standings would depend on points scored in each match.

Offline Shift Key

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Melee at Evolution 2007
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2007, 01:21:20 PM »
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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
ite a few occasions, especially with boxes. When there's zero time elapsing between when the item appears and starts to roll on top of you, it would take nothing short of Jedi powers of perception to avoid it.

Again, you DON'T want that in a tournament.


Two strategies immediately come to mind.

1. Stay away from sloping areas. On the huge maps this is easy to do. Think of it as King of the Mountain or something - find a favourable area and defend it like a drunk protects a keg. Some players perform better on flat areas, others do better from above or below an opponent.

2. Move around. This won't be a guaranteed strategy due to the randomness of the item spawns. But in generalities, the place where an item just dropped is less likely to have another item drop there in the next x seconds when compared to the rest of the map. Fighting in the same area is asking for randomness to have an impact.

I'm all for a subset of items being used randomly, but if you take out items completely then you just aren't playing SSB.


Quote

Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
Let's make a bet: If anyone gets into the top 5 in the 2007 Evo tournament with Link or Pikachu, I'll buy you the Wii game of your choice. Otherwise, you buy the Wii game of my choice for me.

Deal?


Get nicked. The odds are stacked heavily in your favour because its a tournament. Link is actually pretty limited unless you use his weapons to damage from a distance at every opportunity - and the logistics of using the weapons correctly requires a lot of combo-style moves to deal significant damage. Pikachu's just hilarious to use -  thunderbolting a player from the bottom of the level in particular. I don't think there will be many people using these characters because their fighting style is different to the safer and easier to execute style of, say, Fox - blast blast blast, jetpack, throw, etc.

But that doesn't change my opinion that they are very powerful in the right hands.

Offline UncleBob

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Melee at Evolution 2007
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2007, 02:56:28 PM »
I didn't read this whole thread, but I'd like to say that SSBM without items isn't SSBM at all.
Just some random guy on the internet who has a different opinion of games than you.

Offline Smash_Brother

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Melee at Evolution 2007
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2007, 03:35:18 PM »
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Originally posted by: Shift Key
1. Stay away from sloping areas. On the huge maps this is easy to do. Think of it as King of the Mountain or something - find a favourable area and defend it like a drunk protects a keg. Some players perform better on flat areas, others do better from above or below an opponent.


Actually (and I should have mentioned this sooner), given that matches are only going to be played on flat levels anyway, it won't actually be an issue.

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2. Move around. This won't be a guaranteed strategy due to the randomness of the item spawns. But in generalities, the place where an item just dropped is less likely to have another item drop there in the next x seconds when compared to the rest of the map. Fighting in the same area is asking for randomness to have an impact.

I'm all for a subset of items being used randomly, but if you take out items completely then you just aren't playing SSB.


Again, I'm inclined to agree, but the idea behind these tournaments is to remove randomness. Nothing but a 1v1 fight to see who can do the most with their character and raw skill.

It's actually rather surprising that SSBM was brought into this tournament at all, and while I'm not a tournament buff, if items were always set to on, I can see why they wouldn't allow it in the Evo tournament because any randomness would make the game unfit in their eyes.


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Get nicked. The odds are stacked heavily in your favour because its a tournament.


Ya think?

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But that doesn't change my opinion that they are very powerful in the right hands.


Naturally. I'm not arguing that these characters can be very powerful in the right hands. My only argument is that the game has tiers, not that skilled players can't do well with the characters, only that they could do better with the higher-tiered characters.

FYI, I'm a die-hard Bowser player and I convinced a friend to learn Marth just so I could practice against him.
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Offline Koekoenutt

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Melee at Evolution 2007
« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2007, 08:56:04 AM »
In my humble opinion, when it's 1v1 with items, the items always drop closer to the person who is losing, unless it's something that will blow up. Granted there will be times that an item will drop by the winner that won't explode, but from my person experience, I have seen it almost always try to give the losing play some sort of edge when playing with items.

From what I've known from tournies around the US, I thought the loser picks the level. I thought only moving levels were restricted, and that the loser or new comer gets to pick the level. I just think that since everyone ussually is the same characters, due to character tier and popularity, that the same levels are always getting picked. I've seen a lot of interesting and fun 1v1, no item matches online and I really don't think the tournie style of playing is really that dull. You can actually learn a lot from watching them, and I don't mean wavedashing. Sure, A lot of tournies are won with the higher tier characters, but I have seen A LOT of videos and tournies won by Peach and Link. Lately, The Ice Climbers have been winning a lot of matches to, becuase of a new "glitch" that always you to have complete control over both characters, for the most part.

I personally can't do wavedashing effectively, and I do think it should be taken care of in Brawl. Although, I do see where it has now became an underground move, and seeing them make it an actual legit move in the game and making it easier to pull off for the sake of everyone. I don't fully agree with it, but I can still see it being thought about in development.

I really can't stand any new MK games, and DoA really never interested me either. I do love fighting games though, especially Soul Caliber titles, but I can't stand how newer fighting games just don't flow with each other. Mostly all the moves are kind of choppy, and I understand it's to stop people from button mashing, but the moves and combos don't really flow together in my opinion. SSBM is a very intense and smooth playing 1v1 game, and it really does show off the cream of your crops. When my friends and I get together to play Smash Brother Melee, we don't let each other use C-Sticking and we don't use items. Personally think items makes some people cowards and sit at the end of the screen and constantly running around from people until they get an item. A good example is having Samus sit at one end of Hyrule Castle, and constantly using ranged attacks until an item falls by them to come into a battle. Don't get me wrong, we play with items here and there, but showing off your raw skills and not having to deal with trying to organize and control the chaos around you is really fun. Situations like this, your every move is vital and the slightest bit of hestitation can cost you a life.  You can also really find your weakness with a certain character doing 1v1 and improve your game a lot just in that respect.

It's still an epic battle that is chaotic, fast paced, and intense. I also think throwing and short jumps becomes more insential with no items, but this is just my opinion and don't really expect to change other peoples minds about how to play the game. I support 4 player items all the way, but I also understand the depth of 1v1 in Melee. I just fully support the 1v1, no items tournies and think it opens another element to the game that most people don't see for themselves. Everyone has their own style and way of playing the game, and in the end, I would like to see every option and way of playing the game open to everyone, even in the tournies.  
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Offline Mesu

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Melee at Evolution 2007
« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2007, 04:17:52 PM »
This is great news!

Having meelee at evolution could pull more people into the smaller smash brothers tournaments and maybe it will carry over into brawl.

I think they made the right decision not to make it 4 player free for all, too much opportunies for someone to get ganged 3 vs 1(you might have a scenerio where someone has enemies who don't care about fairness). Smash bros. is alot of different things and one of those is a great one on one fighter.

Also free for all just doesn't have much potential as entertainment for some crowd watching. I know some people are bored watching one on one smash bros, but then alot of people also aren't. I'm not sure that could be said about free for all. When people talk about watching 1 on 1 being boring they are comparing it to playing free for all.

I don't know about items though. I've been to 2 tournaments before, one with items and one without items, both were fun and were basically the same, except the one with items had a better crowd response(things like when someone gets a poison mushroom, it's was very supsenseful to see if they survive). Those tournaments were probably just not large enough to have controversy though.

Wavedashes are fun and very useful. Very subtle movements are possible in meelee and that's one of its strengths. The only downside is they feel like it wears the controllers down much faster.