Topic: quack quack

[mantidor]

Im actually happy theres some negative comments, not only universal praise wouldve sound very, very fishy, but it also gives developers additional feedback. There wasnt universal praise for the analog stick as far as I know when it was first introduced, and only when Mario 64 hit we could understand better how it worked. For the types of games that are "traditional", theres definately going to be an adjustment period.

[Jensen]

The IR is read with enough accuracy and precision, but it is a 2D measurement.  The position of the controller in relation to the receiver isn't really known.  If you had one IR emitter at each of the four corners, it might be possible, though.  Not that the controller can handle that either.  I've never seen it, of course.

[Edfishy]

I've really never liked the idea of LOS shooters on the Wii anyway, I'd rather have the Wiimote act as a much more intuitive and sensitive analog stick.  I would however prefer if I could set the center of the screen as the deadzone, but they could easily just have the deadzone pull along with you as it did in Super Mario DS.

However, getting tilt coordinates and programming mobile deadzones is a little advanced for your average third party developer trying to shove out a product.  It does worry me that the technology may be a bit too difficult to perfect for publishers, and we might be in for a repeat of the DS:  A lot of games that do not use the touch screen for anything besides basic menus etc.

[ThePerm]

but your forgetting about the actuators Jensen. There are two on the inside of the controllers..they measure forward-backward motion, up and down motion, and twist-turn motion....

to create a calibration and to accurately read motion one would do this.  One would aim the controller at the center of the screen. An crosshair taking up the entire screen would appear. Then the person would press A, then a dialog would come up and tell the person to point at the sensor bar, and then also maybe the bottom edge of the tv. This would give the Wii a measurement of your tv in inches or centimeters, or whatever measurement it likes to uses.

now one thing we know is tyheres a limit on resolution 480p. so it knows this between the bottom or top of the screen and the center are 240 pixels, from the center to the left or right of the screen are 320 pixels. Line of site calibrated.

[Caliban]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
In the original Duck Hunt you didn't have a cursor.  You just had to have good aim.

LOL, back in the day (in 87 or 88), in my house, in an empty room, we had this small TV that had a nice curved screen, so I found out a little trick when playing Duck Hunt to get all hits without aiming at each target. But I'm not tellin' ya lol.

[ThePerm]

x=left to right
y=up and down
z=forward back
a=180° x tilt
b=180° y tilt
c= 180° z tilt

Calibration series 1 (center of screen)
calibration cordinate(x,y,z,a,b,c)  = 0,0,0,0,0
Calibration Series 2 (sensor bar)
calibration cordinate(x,y,z,a,b)  = .0001, 10.98,.0024,.0001,0
Calibration series 3 (bottom of screen)
calibration cordinate(x,y,z,a,b)  = .0002, 9.72,.0024,.0001,0
Calibration series 4 (right center of screen)
calibration cordinate(x,y,z,a,b)  = 8.988, .0001,.0024,.0001,0

and heres the math for you

[ThePerm]

and actually thinking about it....if the revmote had two actuators..one in the front of the controller and one in the back it could determine its tilt and yaw just by determine the differences in x, y, and z distances between the two sensors

[Jensen]

The accelerometers can't accurately detect more than 3Gs of force.  Quickly move the controller, and the calibration is messed up.  The axis perpendicular to gravity will drift.   Two of the rotation axes can be very accurately measured when the controller is mostly still.  Lateral position, and rotation perpendicular to the force of gravity, cannot be measured absolutely.  

[ThePerm]

3 g forces is alot, 3 g forces is the mostly standard limit of amusement park rides...now i am aware that remote is goign to feel alot of motion..and a quick swingwill give the controller more then 3 gs of motion....but if your not moving the controller more then 3 gs...which i doubt you will  considering you need very precise movements then it would be fine. From what I hear it has like 30 levels of sensitivity(which is what the n64 joystick had i beleive) which should be perfect.

[Renny]

Not for a momentary force.

I still don't see why the absolute position of the controller relative to the screen couldn't be extraplotad from the 2D information of the IR sensors and the rotational imformation of the accelerometers, following some kind of simple calibration test. Watching the various videos from the show floor, it looks like the accelerometers are very accurate.

[ThePerm]

exactly

[OverHeat]

Thanks for the links, Perm! Correct me if I'm wrong, but that Red Steel thing was the only article I have read where they say you have to point at the bar. Isn't it also true that everyone is saying that, for the most part, all the Nintendo games are playing like dreams and the 3rd party stuff needs a little work, with the exception of Madden? If you think about it, the Madden folks have probably had the easiest time with it. They dont have to code out game AI and who knows what else they are just "borrowing" (they said they hated the word port, so I am sidestepping it) from existing Madden games. That means that pretty much all of their time can be devoted to calibrating the Wiimote.

Also, I believe it was even right here at PGC where it was stated that actually Metroid DID have a sensitivity option. I think it was called "advanced". It lets you minimalize the motions you had to make. And Retro did say that there would be calibration options in the final game, so I have so say I think most companies will be doing that. Just makes sense. Also, pointing at a bar wouldnt be very fun, OR immersive. Everyone from the show floor is saying that it IS fun and immersive. The four hour lines kinda prove that, dont they?

I am most certainly not worried.  

[Jensen]

Here is the press release on the "pointing" functionality:

PIXART TEAMS WITH NINTENDO FOR SENSOR TRACKING TECHNOLOGY FOR Wii™ CONTROLLER
Pixart’s Tracking Sensor Technology Provides Quick, Responsive Play Experience on Wii Remote
May 11, 2006. PixArt Imaging Incorporation (PixArt), a market leader in CMOS sensor SoC (System-On-a-Chip) and related application semiconductors, today announces a strategic relationship with Nintendo Co., Ltd., to provide object tracking technology for Nintendo’s new-generation gaming controller, the Wii Remote. PixArt’s premium tracking technology will enable Nintendo to present innovative interaction gaming controllers for its new-generation gaming platform, Wii.

PixArt’s Multi-Object TrackingTM engine (MOT sensorTM) technology can track multiple objects in an unbelievably quick and responsive way. As a result, Nintendo can enable its new gaming controller to interact with people by tracking the movement of the Wii Remote. The playing experience will be unprecedented, exciting and easy, even for young children or older people who cannot operate the traditional gaming controllers.

“PixArt’s technology enables a quick, dynamic play experience,” commented Genyo Takeda, Senior Managing Director/General Manager, Integrated Research & Development Division, Nintendo Co., Ltd. “With PixArt’s technology, Nintendo will usher in a new era of video games.”

“It is PixArt’s pleasure to partner with Nintendo, a technology leader, to launch the most powerful and pleasing solution for a gaming platform,” said Sen Huang, Chief Executive Officer of PixArt. “The Multiple-Object TrackingTM engine (MOT sensorTM) has the highest performance ever in the market, and teaming with Nintendo means a gaming experience that is truly intuitive and inspiringly easy.”
“In the world of interaction, every realistic operation can be simulated in a computerized game. Through play of such simulation, any person can learn very quickly and efficiently in a virtual way. Integrated tracking technology from proven vendors like PixArt will enhance the gaming experience for the overwhelming majority of all-generation gamers.” said Sen Huang.

About PixArt
Founded in July 1998, PixArt Technologies specializes in the design, research and production of CMOS image sensors. PixArt has extensive experiences in analog, image sensor and image processing IC design, and is one of the leading global providers of CMOS image sensors.
Pixart have four main product lines,
1. Standard Raw Data Image Sensors, specs ranging from 20K pixel PAS109 QQVGA up to 3M pixel PAS5311 QXGA.
2. Image DSP IC solutions for mobile camera applications.
3. Optical Mouse, including a new Laser mouse co-developed with OPDI Denmark.
4. Intelligent Sensor SOC Solutions, applications range from embedded twin turbo 8051 MCU's PAC107 sensor, USB CIF/VGA PC Camera to the new Motion-Tracking sensor.
These four product lines add up to a 95 M US dollar revenue in year 2005, making Pixart the largest CMOS sensor design company in Taiwan, Listing on Taiwan Stock Exchange (Taiwan OTC 3227), Please visit www.Pixart.com.tw , for more information on Pixart.

[SgtShiversBen]

Actually Ian, the reason that there is a cursor on there is because not everyone wants to play it with the gun pointing at the screen.  Sure it makes it feel alot more immersive, but not everyone likes doing that.  Also, there was TONS of interference there [when I was playing Red Steel, it went all stupid] because of all the Wii's going crazy, the cellphones and all that.  It's just technology that needs to be a little bit more worked and everything.

But, although you do hear negative things about it, it was sure as sh!t fun to play and I am REALLY hoping to pick up this badboy at launch.  

[RickPowers]

Quote
Originally posted by: Artimus
Let's see...IGN who has played it...Rick who hasn't.

Sorry, but I'll trust the people who have the know. Red Steel is getting "great, but needs control tuning" remarks across the board.

I don't doubt that the controls need work, but the sensor bar is not the culprit.  I'm positive that you'll be able to tell Wii if you placed the bar above or below the screen, and the games will take that into account.  IGNs comments probably came from a controller that was miscalibrated, and thus, blamed the problem on the wrong problem.

So I'll repeat ... you do NOT have to aim the controller at the sensor bar.  You aim the controller at the screen, exactly how you would expect to.  IGN is the ONLY website that complained about this detail, so despite my having not played with the machine, I know enough about the technology to know that they were simply wrong.

[Requiem]

JEnsen the controller is a magic wand that sense everything about it. The sensor bar sensors its position. The Gyroscopes sensor its tilt or rotation. The accellerometers sensor its movement.

I don't see why this is so complicated to understand. The only reason why it messed up in the demo was because of either coding or calibration. The Wiimote is perfect for what it has to do.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

y = mx + b

[ThePerm]

the idea behind my logic is..you purposeley miscalibrate it...so that it is off by just enough that your actually pointing at the screen

[Jensen]

ThePerm: I totally understand you logic. If the controller were to stay mostly in the same spot, it would work pretty well.  

I'm not exactly sure how the IR stuff works but it looks like there is an IR "light" on each end of the "sensor bar", and the CMOS camera in the controller is tracking them.

If you want to move over a couple of feet, so you aren't directly in front of the TV, the two IR lights would appear closer together, but they would also appear closer together if you stepped back a few feet.  The accelerometer would sorta know which of these movements you made, but the accuracy would drift.

You could probably do it with 4 IR lights, one at each corner of the screen, but they'd have to be on the same plane as the surface of the screen.    

[zakkiel]

That's almost certainly false. The way the controller knows it's relative closeness to each sensor is by comparing the the time it takes for each of the signals to reach it, I would guess by wave interference. While moving to the side would make it less accurate (because  lateral changes in the control sensor would have less impact on the ratio of the distances between the controller and each IR source) it would not be confused with moving backwards.  

[eurai]

I had a chance to play this demo at e3 and, no, the remote needn't be pointed directly at the sensor bar in order for its movements to register properly; it'd otherwise be pretty danged counter-intuitive.

On that note, having the cursor helps a heck of a lot considering that the sensivity of the Wii remote is very high (as was the case in each demo I played: table tennis, tennis, Zelda) and requires quite a bit of acclimation.

[UltimatePartyBear]

Quote
Originally posted by: zakkiel
That's almost certainly false. The way the controller knows it's relative closeness to each sensor is by comparing the the time it takes for each of the signals to reach it, I would guess by wave interference. While moving to the side would make it less accurate (because  lateral changes in the control sensor would have less impact on the ratio of the distances between the controller and each IR source) it would not be confused with moving backwards.

They wouldn't use IR for true position tracking since it would require the controller to remain pointed at the IR bar.