Author Topic: Developer/Editor Feedback regarding the NRC  (Read 39756 times)

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Offline KnowsNothing

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RE: Developer/Editor Feedback regarding the NRC
« Reply #125 on: November 01, 2005, 12:33:18 PM »
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(but ends up appealing to nobody as a result)

Wow, I wasn't aware there were any Nintendo games that sold zero copies.
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Offline Hostile Creation

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RE: Developer/Editor Feedback regarding the NRC
« Reply #126 on: November 01, 2005, 01:10:06 PM »
Ian, I have trouble following that logic, considering Nintendogs VASTLY outsold both Eternal Darkness and MGS: TTS.  Nintendogs alone probably made well over twice the sales of those two games, combined.
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Offline Kairon

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RE:Developer/Editor Feedback regarding the NRC
« Reply #127 on: November 01, 2005, 01:34:47 PM »
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Nintendo wants their console to appeal to the entire market.  To do this they have this INSANE strategy (that has never worked and never will) where every game is designed to be suitable for everybody (but ends up appealing to nobody as a result).


Wow, this statement is so false I can't believe it's being uttered. Pokemon appealed to everybody: it had my PC-RPG/Strategy loving uncle buying a gameboy to play it. Mario consistently appeals ACROSS boundaries, as do Zelda games. My best friend and his college buddies actually begged to borrow my GC broadband adaptor and Mario Kart: DD copy because they play it so much in their dorm, even after all these years. Animal Crossing got friggin entire Japanese families, mothers and kids, playing. And of course, mini-game based titles like Mario Party and Wario Ware continue to sell strong numbers DESPITE lack of ads, lack of graphics, low production budgets and their "non-conventional" nature.

IN ADDITION, Nintendo remains the most profitable hardware maker in the industry. Electronic Arts is the only company that can be expected to beat Nintendo in terms of profits/sales. I wonder how a strategy that "never works and never will" could accomplish all that.

I also wonder how someone who actually follow's Nintendo could even think otherwise: the very reason we're all here is because we believe that there's something worth fighting for in Nintendo's drive for quality gameplay instead of fad-based niche appeals and innovation as opposed to Tomb-Raider-esque not-even-trying-to-make-a-diufferent-game sequels. If we didn't, we'd all be Sony or Microsoft fans.

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They better suit someone like Sony who has made a true "everybody" console by offering a varied library where all sorts of totally different games are available and as a result there's something for everybody.


INCORRECT. Silicon Knightd best suits MICROSOFT. Microsoft has shown themselves as a company perfectly willing to take risks and bankroll ambitious titles that are cemented FIRMLY in the hardcore gamer segment. Some of these gambles fail (like that mediocre Oddworld piece of...) while others succeed (like buying a little-known Macintosh developer and stealing from Apple a breakout game like Halo).

Microsoft has also shown a keen interest in following Nintendo's lead and where Nintendo once showed interest in a company, Microsoft practically purchases the company outright in search of Nintendo gold. That's why they bought the bloated Rareware, with nothing to show for it except one port in 4 years, a standard action/adventure title to launch the X360 with and an FPS whose only purpose is to look pretty until Halo 3 comes out. This is also why they bought Silicon Knights: they're hoping that whatever Nintendo saw in the company, they can buy it for dollars and cash.

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It's too bad because they totally had the "make great games" philosophy in common.  They should have worked together perfectly if (surprise) Nintendo wasn't a stubborn old fuddy-duddy.


That's ridiculous. Have you PLAYED ED? Nintendo fans let themselves be overhyped by that game, but in the end realized that had it not been for Miyamoto's input, the game would've likely been saddled with a control system WORSE than RE's. Also, reviewer's were grasping at good things to say about the game, so it eventualy came out that the game had "eh" gameplay, was too short, BUT...and get this..BUT... it had great voice acting and cinematics. How convincing. It wasn't a BAD game, but it absolutely failed to deliver on the hype. Sales numbers bore this out.

When Silicon Knights says "great games" they don't mean the same thing Nintendo means when they say "great games." Nintendo means strong gameplay, game design innovations, and straight-up fun. Silicon Knights means ambience, cinematics, and the graphical power to let them use cinematic conceits; Silicon Knights is all about making players think they're playing a great game while Nintendo is focused on the player actualy playing that great game. Silicon Knights has MORE in common with SQUARESOFT than they have in common with Nintendo.

I have absolutely nothing against Silicon Knights, I own ED, beat all 3 storylines, got scared once or twice, jumped when I heard a torch snap-crackle-pop... I even enjoyed the game for what it was! But it simply didn't have the gameplay quality you'd expect from a game with Nintendo on the box, or the game design polish (seriously, I like their spell system grammar concept but it was absolutely skeletal and not fleshed out one bit) I expect from a top tier game.

I'm not saying that SK won't do well in the future. They have some intrigueing ideas about Too Human...just like they had some intrigueing ideas about Eternal Darkness. But I get the feeling that SK will not be the developer-to-talk-about in 3 years, because they've displayed certain weaknesses in gameplay carry-through and design that need to be solved before I can believe that Too Human will stand out in any way versus whatever other action title the Japanese come out with then.

Spend loads of money on a trilogy epic project that's been in development since 1998 from a company that delivered mediocre gameplay but great voice acting with their last venture? Microsoft is willing to take that risk in hopes of a payoff, while Nintendo evidently doesn't believe the end result 5 years from now will be positive.

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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Developer/Editor Feedback regarding the NRC
« Reply #128 on: November 01, 2005, 02:03:12 PM »
I have a feeling I shouldn't have included the "but ends up appealing to nobody as a result" part.  That's an exageration of course.  The point I'm trying to make is that Nintendo's lineup is very homogenous.  They all have a very similar style because Nintendo wants to make games for everybody.  As a result they have limited appeal beyond Nintendo's fanbase.  If Mario doesn't appeal to you then pretty much no Nintendo game is going to.  That's what I mean by "nobody".  You have to be a diehard Nintendo nut to find the Cube lineup attractive.  There's not much variety.  Every game has to have mass appeal and as a result Nintendo's lineup is largely niche (compared to the competition anyway) because few like stuff designed for everybody.  People like things specifically designed for them.

The PS2 is the ulitmate everybody console because everybody can find something they like on it.  Kids, adults, males, females, casual gamers, hardcore gamers - everyone can find something they like because there's tons of variety and tons of different games designed specifically for those groups.  One game isn't designed for all those groups.  Instead there are games for hardcore gamers and games for kids.  Things are more specific instead of being made to have general appeal so that everyone can like it.  SK makes games strictly for adults and they tend to be more hardcore than say EA.  So Sony would be an ideal fit.  MS isn't a bad choice either for SK as they tend to focus on the mature market so it fits SK well.  The "every game for everybody" approach is exclusively Nintendo's.

As for the approach never working the evidence is that ever since Nintendo lost all their third party support with the N64 their market share and just overall relevence in the console market has dropped like a rock.  Why?  Because the third parties of the NES and SNES era (as well as the Nintendo portables) provided the required variety.  Without them Nintendo is stuck with their "everybody" games making up nearly all of the major titles so the overall lineup looks largely the same and thus anyone not interested in the Nintendo "style" is turned off by the whole console.  Note how the N64 had a lot of success from Goldeneye which was a lot different than the average Nintendo game.  Note how they failed to keep up that momentum as they released more "everybody" games and the non-Nintendo fans who bought Goldeneye got bored.

Offline zakkiel

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RE: Developer/Editor Feedback regarding the NRC
« Reply #129 on: November 01, 2005, 02:06:02 PM »
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Some of these gambles fail (like that mediocre Oddworld piece of...) while others succeed (like buying a little-known Macintosh developer and stealing from Apple a breakout game like Halo).
I agree with almsot everything you say, but i have to take issue with that. Bungie was far from the most famous player on the block, but they had some justifiable name-recognition from the Myth series, and wasn't Team-17 of Worms fame originally part of them?
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Offline Kairon

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RE:Developer/Editor Feedback regarding the NRC
« Reply #130 on: November 01, 2005, 02:23:05 PM »
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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
As for the approach never working the evidence is that ever since Nintendo lost all their third party support with the N64 their market share and just overall relevence in the console market has dropped like a rock.  Why?  Because the third parties of the NES and SNES era (as well as the Nintendo portables) provided the required variety.  Without them Nintendo is stuck with their "everybody" games making up nearly all of the major titles so the overall lineup looks largely the same and thus anyone not interested in the Nintendo "style" is turned off by the whole console.  Note how the N64 had a lot of success from Goldeneye which was a lot different than the average Nintendo game.  Note how they failed to keep up that momentum as they released more "everybody" games and the non-Nintendo fans who bought Goldeneye got bored.


Actually, Nintendo losing all third party support is a precise example of how their strategy SUCCEEDED. Had Nintendo been a company that appealed specifically to this niche or that niche, they'd have been too stretched out over too many small niches with too few titles to have kept on going. Instead, they remained profitable with million selling games that had broad appeal like Mario 64, Mario Kart 64, Zelda, and Pokemon. The only reason at all that Nintendo survived the 32/64 bit era is because their games HAD universal appeal that enabled them to cross niche boundaries and sell to the market at large: Mario 64's 7+ million copies sold as well as Zelda 64's 7+ million copies sold.

And I'm tired of this talk about marketshare. The gaming market is big enough that it's evolved past the "It's too big for the both of us" Testosterone "I win" mentality. Nintendo continues to be very profitable whereas Microsoft is hemmoraging money and Sony is facing huge R & D costs for their Cell chip, AND Nintendo is still a very viable player in the console market with a strong influence with where games are going. And they still make good games. Considering all the things Nintendo has going for it, I hardly see any reason to think the sky is falling when someone else sells a lot of systems.

Anyways, the success of Goldeneye on the N64 does tell us something. It tells us that the addition of the analog stick to the N64 controller benefitted Nintendo. The analog stick and N64 controller made shooters desirable on the N64, somerthing which the PSX couldn't offer technologically at the time. But of course, once Sony copied the analog stick, FPS games were no longer a Nintendo console entity, and then Microsoft took over the genre from Sony. If you really want to replicate the success of Goldeneye, you need another "analog stick". See where this is leading?

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A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
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Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Sega and her Mashiro.

Offline wandering

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RE:Developer/Editor Feedback regarding the NRC
« Reply #131 on: November 01, 2005, 02:34:47 PM »
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Nintendo wants their console to appeal to the entire market. To do this they have this INSANE strategy (that has never worked and never will) where every game is designed to be suitable for everybody (but ends up appealing to nobody as a result).

That isn't their strategy - that's the unfortunate consequence of the fact that Nintendo has poor third party support, which certainly isn't be choice. What we're left with is everybody games because that's what NIntendo makes.... and if you have issues with the unusually fantastic in-house games that Nintendo produces, then I have issues with you.

My take on the Sk situation is that Nintendo wasn't willing/able to fund the Too Human trilogy, which is certainly understandable if unfortunate. But I think the fact that Nintendo has been so open to games like ED, geist, and RE4 shows that they are open to mature/niche titles regardless, unfortunatley the GameCube didn't have the userbase to support games like that. If the Revolution is the runaway success that Nintendo wants it to be, then I don't think we'll have to worry about only getting 'everybody' games.  
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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RE: Developer/Editor Feedback regarding the NRC
« Reply #132 on: November 01, 2005, 03:22:06 PM »
Dont forget Battalion Wars =D
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Offline couchmonkey

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RE: Developer/Editor Feedback regarding the NRC
« Reply #133 on: November 02, 2005, 05:05:39 AM »
My take on SK is that they're the stubborn old fuddy-duddies, intent on adding more FMVs and more hours of gameplay to genres that have already bene done to death, while Nintendo is seeking interesting new directions to take games in.  Okay, SK does what it does better than almost any other developer, but to me it feels like the company is buying in to the same cinematic B.S. that the rest of the Western half of the industry believes is the future for gaming.  I love a game with a interesting plot and flashy graphics, but I love a game that offers a new gameplay experience even more.
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Offline cubist

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RE:Developer/Editor Feedback regarding the NRC
« Reply #134 on: November 03, 2005, 11:36:38 AM »
Did anyone catch IGN's quick Revolution talk from Yu Suzuki?  He didn't sound too excited about the Revolution.  I think whatever system he throws more games to...will be a huge blow to the competition.

 
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Offline Bill Aurion

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RE: Developer/Editor Feedback regarding the NRC
« Reply #135 on: November 03, 2005, 11:46:58 AM »
Sega not giving Ninty anything is hardly anything new...

And whooooops, Sega gave like 70% of their exclusive games to Microsoft this current gen...Huge blow to Sony and Ninty considering how well they sold...Wait, they didn't...
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Offline ThePerm

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RE: Developer/Editor Feedback regarding the NRC
« Reply #136 on: November 03, 2005, 01:19:43 PM »
well if nintendo lowers their quality they will probably appeal to third parties MORE because they wont have to compete with the AAA games. If Nintendo released crappy games for tow years and let third parties take over with their own  AA titles  i wouldnbt mind as long as Nintendo comes back with AAA titles eventually. Mark Rein  is ight in that I havce actually  been enjoying shorter games like  prince of persia over logner games like Wind Waker.
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Developer/Editor Feedback regarding the NRC
« Reply #137 on: November 03, 2005, 01:33:38 PM »
"well if nintendo lowers their quality they will probably appeal to third parties MORE because they wont have to compete with the AAA games. If Nintendo released crappy games for tow years and let third parties take over with their own AA titles i wouldnbt mind as long as Nintendo comes back with AAA titles eventually."

I find that concept incredibly flawed.  Third parties don't support Nintendo because Nintendo doesn't cater to them as well as the other two do and Nintendo has the weakest marker share.  I don't know what it's like now but for a while Nintendo had the highest licencing fees and with the N64 they didn't share important microcode with everyone and stuff like that.  They didn't help Sega at all with PSO despite it being the first online Cube game.  I don't think third parties are intimidated by Nintendo's games it's just that Nintendo acts like an ass and why should you put up with a dick when from a financial point of view there is no benefit in giving them more attention than the competition.  Note that on the GBA this whole "Nintendo makes the best games" stuff doesn't matter.  It's because the GBA has dominating market share and it's worth putting up with any of Nintendo heelish ways to support it.

If Nintendo made worse games if anything it would hurt their third party relations because it would severely hurt their console sales.  To attract third parties Nintendo has to be accomodating and treat third parties as partners instead of peons to exploit and then improve their market share as a result of their own first party games and quality third party titles they obtained by making deals and playing nice.  MS publishes the most successful and argueably best Xbox game in Halo but that doesn't hurt their third party support.

A Nintendo console with worse first party titles would just be a console with crappy third party selection AND lame first party games.  Who the hell is going to buy that?