Topic: Why does in-game level-characters always respawn in the same places?

[Gamebasher]

The title of my topic kinda says it all, doesn´t it?

I simply wonder why I always have to face the same characters, for instance that skeleton-head with that green glow around it, haunting the Well in Kakariko Village in OOT, when I return to the that part of the area after some time doing other things in the level itself. THe same thing was the case with the Arctic predators in MP1. They just kept respawning over and over. If I kill something, damn it should be dead. And I do know that there isn´t any place from where others could have come. No tunnels, or portals or anything seen so far at least. So really I think they just make them respawn, to give longevity to the game. But that can be done better, and in a far more inventive way.

I just think it would be better if Nintendo (and Retro) could work on making it more varied where and when they re-appear, instead of always making it just the same and the same over and over. Would add more excitement to the gameplay, as you wouldn´t know what would be there when you returned, instead of just plain knowing what to expect.

No doubt there are limitations as to what the developers can do, and it´s hard to develope the maingame itself, but it sort of weighs down the value of playing and replaying the games with overabundance of such problems, because it is annoying to have to kill something over and over, because it "won´t die". In the end I found myself just trying to avoid it, rather than killing it - duh! again - because it got to be too much. Only to be more at risk of depleting my energy meter!

Does anybody have the same experience? Am I really the only one who wan´t that to change?  

[Plugabugz]

There's these things in MP2, called Quad MB or something. it's not the head, but the main body which the head can attach to that extremely irritate me because i either dont know how to dispatch them, so i have to run into the room if they haven't locked the door, or have to try every possible thing.

The respawning isn't as bad as expected, except the war wasps, which are REALLY annoying.

[SgtShiversBen]

Plug, when they're shooting at you, a little red "thing" comes from underneath them, bomb that.  Or when they're spinning like crazy beavers, boost into them in which their "genital" comes down, so blow it up.  After that, they're dead.

[Bill Aurion]

Come on, enemy respawning is what keeps a game challenging...If you are going to retake a path you need to think ahead about what enemies are in that area...

[Plugabugz]

Thanks SSB, i'm going to try that tomorrow. I thought when they started spinning you had to go into boost ball mode and then avoid them.

BACK ON TOPIC FOLKS! *cough*

[Ian Sane]

I think enemy respawning is usually fine provided it's done in a fair way.  The enemies respawning in Zelda usually doesn't bother me because the respawning enemies are usually total wimps that can be easily killed once you learn their pattern.  Respawning enemies in Super Metroid were alright as well because usually the first time I encountered them they were hard but due to weapon upgrades the next time they were easy.  I only hate respawning in situations where the respawning enemies can seriously hurt you regardless of any new weapons or items you have since received.

Metroid Prime, despite being an amazing game, is really unfair with respawning enemies.  Fighting a room full of Space Pirates or Chozo Ghosts is always hard regardless of how far you've gotten in the game.  The respawning enemies just take too much effort to kill.  I know that respawning enemies are common in Metroid games but in this case it was almost like fighting a boss every time you entered the room.  When I'm low on health and trying to get to a save point I don't want to fight six Space Pirates that take a fair bit of shots to kill.  Fighting a few weak enemies to keep me on my toes is alright but I shouldn't have to repeat really hard won battles again and again.  Fortunately MP2 seems to be a lot more balanced so far (maybe I just haven't gotten far enough) in that often when a room contains a tough battle next time around it has different easier enemies.

I don't really like the idea of totally random respawning enemies.  I find randomness serious hurts game difficulty.  Something should be hard or easy to do because the designs decided it would be, not due to sheer randomness.  If you randomize it then some people are going to luck out and just breeze through the game and some people are going to be unlucky and just get murdered the whole game.  One idea that I wouldn't mind though is partially randomness.  Like say for example there are three rooms and an enemy will be in one of the three but you don't know exactly which one.  Or there are a fixed amount of enemies but they can walk around to other areas (walk around as in I can see them not teleport).  It can work but it has to be designed carefully.

Though I do think that a game would benefit greatly from having no enemy respawns but with harder enemies.  So you only have to kill everything once but it takes some effort to kill them.

[vudu]

Respawning enemies are fine just so long as they're in games where there's not a limited amount of ammo.  If you can take them out with a melee weapon or a gun with unlimited ammo, great; bring 'em on.  But if there's no such alternative, or if the ememy is far too difficult to take it out with one of those weapons, it's not fair.  There's no reason why I should waste ammo on an enemy that I've already killed before.

This is especially true in games where extra ammo is limited.  RE4 has me a tad scared in this regard.

I'm always afraid of saving a game after I don't have enough ammo (or health) to proceed, and having to restart.  Granted, it hasn't happened to me in 16+ years of gaming, but it's something that's always in the back of my mind.

[Hostile Creation]

I like respawning enemies, and I like them to be fun and a bit of a challenge.  I have no problem with stopping and fighting a medium difficulty enemy every now and then (like the Sheegoth infants or Space Pirates in Metroid Prime; perfect respawn enemies, and MP2 lacked such fun respawns).  It's a fun release from backtracking and keeps the game interesting.
I think respawning could be done better, with more variety (like limited randomness, like Ian suggested).  That would be very cool, to not know exactly what's waiting for you.
And for Ian, most of the time the enemies in MP2 are very easy as far as respawning goes, but some enemies do prove a problem.  No real spoiler here, just telling you what two enemies bothered me the most in the game:
First off, the MP2 equivalent of the MP1 Sheegoths.  I forget the name, but they're in Torvus Bog.  They're much harder to kill than Sheegoth's were (one super missile to knock the back off and a charge shot or two to kill them after that) and are stronger and quicker, and you have less room to fight them.  Those aren'ta big deal if you have missiles, though, which you probably will.  What I hate are Dark Space Pirate Commandos, who are basically Chozo Ghosts x 5.  Very hard, probably about five super missiles to kill them, and you can only see them with the dark visor.  They leave if you don't beat them in a certain time limit (And if you kill one it stays dead next to you fight), but they stay dead once you beat them in that time limit.  Only one or two areas have them permanently.

Zelda respawns are good, too, because they're fun to fight without being a problem or annoyance.  Same goes for games like Mario, and though upgrades are rare in Mario, you're used to killing them by then, so it's no problem.

[kirby_killer_dedede]

I'm sure they wouldn't do it if they had the choice...as you said, games have their limits...

[Shecky]

DATAPOINT: I have no problem with the "respawning" in any Metroid title or Zelda title.

I mean come on.... you know they're going to be there, either run past em or deal with em.  Usually, if one pisses me off, I'll beat the snot of it and leave the rest as I flee the room

[kirby_killer_dedede]

Oh my God, the AI are freaking spawn-camping!

[Gamebasher]

Iansane writes, quote:

"Fighting a room full of Space Pirates or Chozo Ghosts is always hard regardless of how far you've gotten in the game. The respawning enemies just take too much effort to kill. I know that respawning enemies are common in Metroid games but in this case it was almost like fighting a boss every time you entered the room. When I'm low on health and trying to get to a save point I don't want to fight six Space Pirates that take a fair bit of shots to kill. Fighting a few weak enemies to keep me on my toes is alright but I shouldn't have to repeat really hard won battles again and again."

In particular the last part of your reply "but I shouldn't have to repeat really hard won battles again and again."  is exactly what I meant when I posted the topic! And that´s what is still there to some extent with the Space Pirates at least in the room with the Dark Portal. I could finish them all off, and come back a minute later, and they´d be backk! For goodness and reality´s sake, nobody can replenish their ranks that quickly! It is too much and I do hope that they change it in the future. Killing enemies, doesn´t mean that there can´t be MORE coming. But it should be made more realistic in the way it´s being coded! Also the Chozo Ghosts that just kept coming back and back, made you wonder how many there are totally! 6 or 600? It gives a good feeling that you can go back to a room where you experience that the enemies you killed are dead, and not coming back again like your mega effort din´t have any impact. Otherwise it´s like Retro is mocking you!

Make it varied how and where they re-appear, Retro, if so, and preferably make it more understood why it is possible that they can come back. Alternatively, make other enemies come to the same rooms, say, accompanied with a cutscene showing the moment you go back to that room, and the player will be more comfortable with having to fight again in a room he or she is passing through on the way to some other place. Instead oof making the person feel a need to scramble through just to make it out alive onto the real important destination!

This is something they should read.

[couchmonkey]

Well, I think the issue here is to always prevent a game from becoming a chore.  That's when respawning is a problem.
Random respawning has some appeal if it's done in a smart, limited way.  You can't have enemies respawn just anywhere and at any strength, but you could create random clusters of enemies that present a similar challenge and respawn in the same areas.
I like the idea of having enemies respawn over time.  Nintendo did that in a rudimentary way in the very first Legend of Zelda, I believe.  If you killed some enemies, you could walk around x number of other screens before they would respawn.  I'd like to see respawning handled something like that.
But again, I think it all comes down to preventing your game from becoming a chore.  I think respawning enemies, backtracking, repetitive level design and scavenger hunting are all things that need to be guraded against in this respect.  Oh man I'm a nerd!

[Shecky]

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In particular the last part of your reply "but I shouldn't have to repeat really hard won battles again and again."  is exactly what I meant when I posted the topic! And that´s what is still there to some extent with the Space Pirates at least in the room with the Dark Portal. I could finish them all off, and come back a minute later, and they´d be backk! For goodness and reality´s sake, nobody can replenish their ranks that quickly! It is too much and I do hope that they change it in the future. Killing enemies, doesn´t mean that there can´t be MORE coming. But it should be made more realistic in the way it´s being coded! Also the Chozo Ghosts that just kept coming back and back, made you wonder how many there are totally! 6 or 600? It gives a good feeling that you can go back to a room where you experience that the enemies you killed are dead, and not coming back again like your mega effort din´t have any impact. Otherwise it´s like Retro is mocking you!

A *really hard* battle is a boss, not some Chozo Ghosts or Space Pirates.  

As for Metroid Prime 2:
Variability:
For example: The one area in Torvis Bogg that hosts the bridge to the EC.  That room in particular had 4 different types of enemies at different times of visit.   It settles in on one particular type later on, but it can also be completely void.  Another example is the ship of the human commandos... sometimes it'll be a group of space pirates instead of war wasps.  Also, when there are space pirates, they always grunt or have some kind of "I'm here" warning (most of the enemies do) and won't attack until you make yourself plainly available (by firing or running into plain sight).  If for whatever reason you didn't want to face them, you could always make an about face, hit your map and figure out your options b/c of the....

I was just here 2 seconds ago rule:
In MP2: *If* you dispose of enemies in a room, then advance to the next room... The enemies will not return if you should you return to the original room.  (Save for a few exceptions I'm sure)  This helps for the all popular, "oh c*** wrong way/door"  Of course if you blew by them in the previous room... well you'll have a fun greeting at the door should you backtrack.

Rules of Engagement:
At no point am I forced to engage except for the "mini-bosses" such as the dark pirate commandos... they appear as a set and you must fight them or "wait and hide, usually via morphball somewhere in the room".  Encounters with dark pirate commandos are not mandatory otherwise!.  If I were forced to clear out a room each time before advancing... *then* it becomes anoying.

Quote
Make it varied how and where they re-appear, Retro, if so, and preferably make it more understood why it is possible that they can come back. Alternatively, make other enemies come to the same rooms, say, accompanied with a cutscene showing the moment you go back to that room, and the player will be more comfortable with having to fight again in a room he or she is passing through on the way to some other place. Instead oof making the person feel a need to scramble through just to make it out alive onto the real important destination!

Well, sans for the cut scenes *on each occurrence*, they pretty much have already done this, check out my examples above.  Usually they seem to reserve cut scenes for when your already in a room and more enemies arrive.  Which is good and preferable in my opinion.

Most of the time the enemies in MP2 have more reason for them coming back than other games... (Space Pirates are the plentiful enemy).  Other enemies that are say dormant and embedded in the walls ... cough IngSmasher, have a limited predefined number.

Personally I think they did an excellent job and handle it better than any other game out there.

[PaLaDiN]

Thanks Shecky, you just saved me the trouble of typing a similar post.

I'd like to add that just like in any other Metroid game, none of the normal enemies in Echoes are particularly hard or tricky by the time you meet them a second or third time. I don't know what you guys are complaining about. At worst, they've hurt me for half a tank of damage by the time I kill them all.

[Plugabugz]

I really really like the way how the Rezbit damages Samus' suit, reminds me of Windows 9x lol, but their "digital virus delivery system" is only limited to line of sight. I believe they're the most creative enemies in the game.