Topic: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)

[syn4aptik]

Playing my first boss fight and I am starting to notice problems with the gameplay. I am on the floating teddybear boss and it is kind of frustrating how small the hit boxes are considering how large Wario is, the tight spaces you must navigate to hit the boss, and how inexact the physics feel at times. I feel like I am not really "getting" the feel of attacking with Wario and it is preventing me from having fun. The challenge isn't "me vs. boss", it's "me vs. controls", and that is never, ever fun.

[Pixelated Pixies]

Playing my first boss fight and I am starting to notice problems with the gameplay. I am on the floating teddybear boss and it is kind of frustrating how small the hit boxes are considering how large Wario is, the tight spaces you must navigate to hit the boss, and how inexact the physics feel at times. I feel like I am not really "getting" the feel of attacking with Wario and it is preventing me from having fun. The challenge isn't "me vs. boss", it's "me vs. controls", and that is never, ever fun.

As much as I enjoyed the game I did find a few of the bosses to be a little frustrating. Cuckoo Condor for instance gave me quite a bit of hassle; trying to catch those eggs and throw back at the correct angle was difficult the first couple of times I tried it.

[Pixelated Pixies]

For those who didn't catch this a few months ago, I just thought I'd share Jeremy Parish's thoughts on Warioland 4. I could talk until I'm blue in the face about why Warioland 4 is awesome, but Parish makes the case more convincingly than I ever could.
 
Check it out - http://www.1up.com/features/wario-land-4-remains-best-portable-mario

[TJ Spyke]

LOL, best portable Mario? I could not disagree more. The game looks nice, but it just feels off. The gameplay is not that great (I don't feel like I am as in control of Wario as I would like). I also don't feel tons of motivation to beat it. I am starting to think I just don't like Wario in general (I like WarioWare, but you don't really use Wario in them).

[Pixelated Pixies]

LOL, best portable Mario? I could not disagree more. The game looks nice, but it just feels off. The gameplay is not that great (I don't feel like I am as in control of Wario as I would like). I also don't feel tons of motivation to beat it. I am starting to think I just don't like Wario in general (I like WarioWare, but you don't really use Wario in them).

I'm starting to get a sense from this thread that many people just don't like Warioland games, lol. No biggie, I'm just a little surprised is all. I loved Warioland: Shake It, really enjoyed Warioland 4 and am digging Warioland 2 which I am currently playing. It's a great series in my opinion, but clearly it's not for everyone.

[TJ Spyke]

I like Shake It, I will admit that (though I haven't beaten it yet).

[Hey Einstein!]

I'm out.
I up graded to a 3DS XL and after my system transfer I seem to have lost my save stats on all my eshop downloads. Even when using my original SD card in the new system. I was half way through the game and felt like I had seen enough to know that it wasn't for me. It's not a bad game, there is something there. But over all I found a lot of the levels (leading up to the dash back to the start) to be frustrating or a bit dull. Loved those dash back moments though! But not enough to start over, at least not with it still fresh in my memory.


I'm not going to give up on the series though. Hearing Greg and Jonny talking about Wario land 2 on the GBC this week has me wondering if that is a better realization of the ideas at the center of this game, so probably going to give that one a shot.

[Glad0s]

That's quite an...erm....bold article. If you can't guess from my previous posts, I completely disagree with it, Rolling Stones comparisons aside. (Although, for the record, there really haven't been too many great Mario portable games, have there?) In other random thoughts, I actually kind of like the boss battles, unlike some posters above me. Sure, they can be a bit frustrating, but I still think they're pretty fun.

[ejamer]

I really loved Wario Land 4 the first time through, and even had fun when the ambassador games were first release playing through the game again. But I haven't been very motivated to go back for more and it's been a bit of drudge work trying to play enough to refresh my opinions about the game.

The levels were often clever and enjoyable but didn't seem to hold enough secrets that I wanted to revisit them. The bosses were a highlight for me because they provided the only real challenge in the game and took some trial and error to figure out (although you could opt to buy special helper effects to take the edge off these challenges and make getting key treasures much easier if necessary).  Mini games are a great way to earn bonuses during boss battles and a good reason to encourage coin collection, and even though the selection is small the quality is very good. That probably shouldn't be a surprise after playing the WarioWare series.

I do want to mention that the music and graphics were a lot of fun for a GBA title, and the story (what story there is) was presented well also.  It's a shame that the hidden "soundtrack" feature was such a lame troll.  Of the 10 hidden discs that were found in my last play through, only two approach something that I'd consider worth listening to at all... and I have no intention to go looking for others given how bad the already found tracks are.

One thing interesting about this game is how it fits into the Wario series.  The original Wario Land is still one of my favorite Game Boy titles, but offers an experience that is much different than what later games did.  The next two games get a lot of love from the NWR crew, and with good reason. The gimmick of having Wario be invincible but change forms based on interactions with enemies was neat and led to some interesting level design, but the games never really drew me in. Maybe due to the slow speed or limited screen size?  Maybe because those games are more linear, without allowing you to jump back and forth between different stages or easily replay your favorites? Or maybe just because I didn't play those games when they were new and looking back years later makes the design innovations seem less impressive? Regardless, Wario Land 4 feels much more modern to me. It's got a quicker pace as Wario feels more limber and responsive, still includes multiple "forms" of Wario available to play around with, and has fun level design as you race back through the levels to reach the exit.

Two things I wanted to mention that I really enjoyed:
(1) The lava level where everything freezes over at the halfway point and you end up racing back across a modified, ice-filled version of the level that you started in. Smart design and a fun level to play.
(2) The little archaeologist dude who only exists for you to abuse during the mini bonus stages. Good running gag to keep having Wario use him as the solution to the puzzle. I feel like they could've expanded on this more... but was happy with things as they are.

My lasting take away from this game is simply that Wario Land Shake It! on Wii did a wonderful job of refining the formula.  There are still issues with that game - I think that using coins for mini-games in Wario Land 4 is much more interesting than simply going to Syrup's shop, for example - but it generally takes all the design decisions from Wario Land 4 and improves on them.  Including different goals and challenges for each level was a particularly good advancement in the Wii game as it gave overt incentive to go back and replay the same stage multiple times.

Anyway, that's my take.

[noname2200]

I don't care for any of the boss battles I've had so far. The enemy patterns aren't all that complex or interesting, but they have a ton of health, so the fights just drag on.

[syn4aptik]

I have to say, even though I complained about this game a little bit already...it's kind of growing on me. I am starting to "get" the controls a bit more, so the bosses are less frustrating. Plus, as soon as you submit to the fact that the first attempt (or two) at a boss is a throw-away in order to learn the pattern, it becomes less irritating. I still feel like the levels ask a little too much in the way of memorization, but given the small number of them, the hidden items, and the score targets, there actually is a little bit of an incentive to get to know the levels intimately.


All that said, I probably will only do enough to complete the game.  As others have pointed out, the CD collection is dumb, and I am not so sure I care much about high scores at this point in my life.

[oohhboy]

When I had first played through this game years ago, I didn't look into the "CD" collection until I unlocked every single one. So when I finally had a look at it expecting some sort of sound test like feature I was a little ticked off and perplexed. But then I realised this is a Wario game, and in true Wario fashion, I was getting trolled by the developer Wario style. Rather fitting really even though I would have preferred the sound test.

[pandaradox]

This is my first experience with Wario Land 4 and I tend to agree with other first-timers. 


It's a fun game with novel ideas, but I think that's where it annoyed me.  The expanded life bar only insulted me at first, suggesting that I'm in for a world of hurt and need the supposed "handicap."  I grew up in older style 2d side-scrollers and if it something moved, I stay away from it.  The game knows this but didn't tell me it's not the standard here.  The idea of using status effects to solve puzzles is great!  However, I have to find out by accident.  This would generally be forgivable, BUT the game tosses in enemies that do nothing but damage you, reinforcing the original teachings to avoid all moving things.  That's where the game gets frustrating.  I don't like being expected to fail to succeed.  If I fell down a pit, it's because I messed up... surprise!  I was supposed to drop there to find a treasure.  Now I find myself chucking Wario down every hole. 


If you look at DK94, there are little cut scenes that show the general expectations.  Without that, the game becomes a child with a fork kind of mentality: Let's see what responds to pokes! 


The level design is great for a portable, keeping things tight and simple with a move forward until you can't anymore then move up/down.  I agree with other sentiments towards the time trial back.  Thankfully, the game encourages a enough exploration to identify where detours will occur, but the rush of making it back in time creates the central, most addictive, trait of the game: Greed.  Do I go for the money or will I not have enough time to make it back?  I think that's where the game shines.  Naturally, we quickly develop a "Yeah, I can get that in time!" judgment process, but it creeps up and gets worse as the game goes on.  To THAT, I say kudos. 


So far, haven't felt compelled to race back through a level to scavenge for what I've missed.  The short levels unfortunately reinforce this instead of discourage it. 


Other than that, the art is wit of the game is great and it controls nicely.  I just wish it assumed less. 

[Pandareus]

It's a fun game with novel ideas, but I think that's where it annoyed me.  The expanded life bar only insulted me at first, suggesting that I'm in for a world of hurt and need the supposed "handicap."  I grew up in older style 2d side-scrollers and if it something moved, I stay away from it.  The game knows this but didn't tell me it's not the standard here.  The idea of using status effects to solve puzzles is great!  However, I have to find out by accident.  This would generally be forgivable, BUT the game tosses in enemies that do nothing but damage you, reinforcing the original teachings to avoid all moving things.  That's where the game gets frustrating.

Very good points. As were the points someone else made earlier about the game not teaching you properly all the moves before thrusting you in levels that require them, like the Super Butt Stomp.

I beat the final boss last night, and honest question: how did anyone ever figure out how to use the hammer? I had to look it up.

[ejamer]

(Wario apologist, since nobody else seems interested in standing up for the game.)

...
Very good points. As were the points someone else made earlier about the game not teaching you properly all the moves before thrusting you in levels that require them, like the Super Butt Stomp.

I beat the final boss last night, and honest question: how did anyone ever figure out how to use the hammer? I had to look it up.

The very first (ie: mandatory tutorial) level teaches you how to do the Super Butt Stomp and shows you when it is required. You can also check the manual to gets tips or hints about where and when to apply Wario's different moves.


Using the hammer in the final boss battle is one of the trickiest parts of the game because by that point you aren't thinking about changing Wario's form - I don't recall having to do that for any other boss in the game.  But you would've come in contact with hammer enemies before that use the same weapon sprite. Even if you don't put 2+2 together yourself, it's very possible that you will discover the point of the hammer after throwing it at the boss and accidentally getting in the way where it lands. My one complaint here is that they didn't give some precedent with earlier bosses, or even earlier with the same boss fight, not that they added a cool element you have to figure out during the battle.

...  The game knows this but didn't tell me it's not the standard here.  The idea of using status effects to solve puzzles is great!  However, I have to find out by accident.  This would generally be forgivable, BUT the game tosses in enemies that do nothing but damage you, reinforcing the original teachings to avoid all moving things.  That's where the game gets frustrating.  I don't like being expected to fail to succeed.  If I fell down a pit, it's because I messed up... surprise!  I was supposed to drop there to find a treasure.  Now I find myself chucking Wario down every hole.  ...

There are almost always strong clues and hints about where secrets are placed, and while interactions with enemies aren't outright explained they are often suggested. So the trial-and-error really shouldn't be as bad as suggested as you are typically give clear direction about where to go (or subtle direction about where secrets reside).


As for figuring out how to transform Wario, the manual describes all of Wario's different forms and there are some places where transformations are essentially forced. It's also the fourth game in the series. Learning how to change forms and what each new form allows you to do is part of the fun of exploration for many people, not a gameplay burden.




If people don't like the game because it challenges some of their expectations and standards, I can understand but not really sympathize. Wario Land 4 isn't a perfect game but a lot of the complaints here seem to fall into "lazy gamer" categories than "poor design".  Keep your eyes peeled and your thinking cap on while playing instead of just assuming that old Mario paradigms should always apply here too!


(Apologist mode off.  Caveat: There are some design areas that clearly could've been improved in the game and I don't really think all the concerns posted are due to gamers being lazy. However, I do think that some of the complaints posted in this thread come from people applying expectations to the game prior to playing instead of just exploring the game with an open mind.)

[Pixelated Pixies]

(Wario apologist, since nobody else seems interested in standing up for the game.)

Ahem.

[ejamer]

(Wario apologist, since NOT ENOUGH OTHERS seem interested in standing up for the game.)

Ahem.

Fixed.
 

[Pixelated Pixies]

(Wario apologist, since NOT ENOUGH OTHERS seem interested in standing up for the game.)

Ahem.

Fixed.
 

Nice!

[oohhboy]

Hey! What am I? Chopped Liver?

[syn4aptik]

Wario Land 4 isn't a perfect game but a lot of the complaints here seem to fall into "lazy gamer" categories than "poor design".

No. Just...no. There's a reason why Zelda games don't make you burn random bushes to find dungeons anymore, homie.


And have we learned nothing from the Lair fiasco?


If a lot of people complain about some aspect of a game, they didn't like it. It's sort of the whole point of giving your opinion. It's not "playing the game wrong".

[ejamer]

Wario Land 4 isn't a perfect game but a lot of the complaints here seem to fall into "lazy gamer" categories than "poor design".

No. Just...no. There's a reason why Zelda games don't make you burn random bushes to find dungeons anymore, homie.

And have we learned nothing from the Lair fiasco?

If a lot of people complain about some aspect of a game, they didn't like it. It's sort of the whole point of giving your opinion. It's not "playing the game wrong".

You are taking one sentence from my argument out of context and then offering comparisons that aren't similar on a lot of important levels.


Where does Wario Land 4 make you burn random bushes? Almost nothing in the game is just randomly hidden - level design and graphical hints give away virtually all of the secrets for anyone who pays attention. (The rest of the secrets should be found through normal exploration - part of the Wario Land series from day 1.)


Not paying attention to (or at least remembering) then controls in a simple 2D platformer, refusing to check the manual or replay the mandatory in-game tutorial, and then blaming the game for not introducing certain moves doesn't really compare to having extremely difficult or broken controls.


I never said the game was perfect, and am not trying to dismiss all criticism of it. But some of the complaints posted here aren't very meaningful and sound like people came in with expectations instead of just trying to experience the game.


("I play CounterStrike competitively and when I try to play Halo the same way it doesn't work very well. Therefore Halo sucks." WTF? No! Approach different games with a clean slate instead of trying to apply lessons learned in one game directly to the other. Even if Mario games have taught you to avoid enemies on pain of death in all cases, you aren't playing a Mario game so leave that preconception at the door.)

[Pandareus]

Is there a way to see which boss' treasures we're missing? I'd rather not refight all of them.

[syn4aptik]

You are taking one sentence from my argument out of context and then offering comparisons that aren't similar on a lot of important levels.


Where does Wario Land 4 make you burn random bushes? Almost nothing in the game is just randomly hidden - level design and graphical hints give away virtually all of the secrets for anyone who pays attention. (The rest of the secrets should be found through normal exploration - part of the Wario Land series from day 1.)


Not paying attention to (or at least remembering) then controls in a simple 2D platformer, refusing to check the manual or replay the mandatory in-game tutorial, and then blaming the game for not introducing certain moves doesn't really compare to having extremely difficult or broken controls.


I never said the game was perfect, and am not trying to dismiss all criticism of it. But some of the complaints posted here aren't very meaningful and sound like people came in with expectations instead of just trying to experience the game.

You are completely missing the point. If people don't like some aspect of a game, they don't like it. If they are forgetting a mechanic, it may be that the designers didn't use it often enough or didn't include necessary reminders. Or maybe not. But OPINION is not something that can be argued on factual grounds. And if a majority of peoples' OPINIONS are that some aspect of a game is frustrating or not fun, THAT is what makes bad game design. I am not saying that Warioware 4 has bad game design, but it is certainly not the case that peoples' arguments about frustrating elements of the game are their fault. They just find those elements frustrating.

[syn4aptik]

-deleted this post because I thought it might come across as flame-y I don't want to do that -

[ejamer]

You are taking one sentence from my argument out of context and then offering comparisons that aren't similar on a lot of important levels.


Where does Wario Land 4 make you burn random bushes? Almost nothing in the game is just randomly hidden - level design and graphical hints give away virtually all of the secrets for anyone who pays attention. (The rest of the secrets should be found through normal exploration - part of the Wario Land series from day 1.)


Not paying attention to (or at least remembering) then controls in a simple 2D platformer, refusing to check the manual or replay the mandatory in-game tutorial, and then blaming the game for not introducing certain moves doesn't really compare to having extremely difficult or broken controls.


I never said the game was perfect, and am not trying to dismiss all criticism of it. But some of the complaints posted here aren't very meaningful and sound like people came in with expectations instead of just trying to experience the game.

You are completely missing the point. If people don't like some aspect of a game, they don't like it. If they are forgetting a mechanic, it may be that the designers didn't use it often enough or didn't include necessary reminders. Or maybe not. But OPINION is not something that can be argued on factual grounds. And if a majority of peoples' OPINIONS are that some aspect of a game is frustrating or not fun, THAT is what makes bad game design. I am not saying that Warioware 4 has bad game design, but it is certainly not the case that peoples' arguments about frustrating elements of the game are their fault. They just find those elements frustrating.

Fair enough.
http://www.metacritic.com/game/game-boy-advance/wario-land-4
The majority of people seem to think Wario Land 4 is ok, so I'll stand by my statement.


That said, you've got a really good point that a bunch of people won't like the game for a bunch of different reasons, and that they are perfectly entitled to their opinions.  Some of the complaints don't hold much weight for me, but my opinion doesn't matter much when others are coming to grips with their own feelings about the game.


(And I don't mind if you put some flame-y sounding content out, as should be obvious by now.  Anything to lively up this discussion. Just don't take any of my responses too seriously!)