Topic: Final Fantasy 12 Website Up And Running

[Gup]

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Originally posted by: Urkel
Oh, and I noticed Gup was quick to point out the ONE WORD that I misspelled in my last post. So I guess now the score is:

Gup, the grammer Nazi - 2
Me - Negative 10,032,489,837,458,674,572.0038259125
The entire cast of The Goonies - 10,000,000,000




(Admit it, The Goonies is the greatest movie ever made)







(I spelled grammar wrong on purpose. Sorry to get your hopes up, Gup)

Huh?

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Originally posted by: Bill
Gup = FF fanboy

So very true

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Originally posted by: Bill
I'm sick of arguing about how I feel about the FF series, and I'm sick of arguing with a FF fanboy and someone who probably doesn't remember the early days of FF...

I remember the "early days of FF"(SNES & NES) and to be quite honest, they didn't get me hooked on RPGs the way I am now.  I'm sure if we were to set up a poll in an RPG website(such as RPGamer or something) asking which Final Fantasy era was/is better?, that the PS days will rule or I can just find you a couple.

[mouse_clicker]

[Grandia 2 Spoilers!]

KDR: I was right, you weren't paying attention. The story HAD an evil, corrupt church but that wasn't the ponit of the story. The point of the story was that you don't need a God to tell you what to do in life, that you had free will and that you should use it to live your current life to the fullest instead of wasting it trying to achieve entry to the next life. This was demonstrated by the fact that all these people prayed to Granas and sought guidance from him, only to find out HE'S the one who died, not Valmar. It wasn't about an "evil church".

[Bill Aurion]

Both you and mouse_clicker didn't see the break...

"I'm sick of arguing about how I feel about the FF series, and I'm sick of arguing with a FF fanboy(that's you Gup) and someone who probably doesn't remember the early days of FF...this part is mouse_clicker)"

Maybe if I rewrote it...

"I'm sick of arguing about how I feel about the FF series, I'm sick of arguing with a FF fanboy, and I'm sick of arguing with someone who probably doesn't remember the early days of FF..."

Better?
__________________________________________

Since I'm not a diehard RPG fan, I play RPGs for good stories and interesting characters...And The Goonies isn't the best movie of all time(Last Crusade is) but I'll agree that it was a very good movie  

[Ymeegod]

LOL,

First off if FF VII -FFIX suck so bad then why don't the reviewers agree?  FFVII is still the highest rated FF game or even FFX which recieved solid 9.0's.

Personally I love the addition to FMV to the series and what it added--a sense of feel.  

As for sex & volience you're point is pretty much invalid.  Not sure what FF games you played but characters dying (in FFV alone 4-5 characters die) or that whole sex appeal isn't new either.  Sure a 8bit character looks rather dull but if you read the bios it's always some hot little lass and not some overweight ape looking women.  You never find 100% girl from the next door from any of these games.  The only difference between then and now is how the appear graphically.  Big deal.

As for sales, it's pretty weak agruement to say the sales reflect from the quality because if that's the case then freaking SMS, FZero GX, Zelda Wind Waker, ect all sucked ass since they didn't sell as well as the orginals.  

[mouse_clicker]

REviews don't mean jack squat to me- I've played poorly reviewd games that I loved and I've played highly reviewed games I hated. Besides, if you look at it from their point of view, ymeegod, all the reviews are done by people who don't remember the earlier FF's, or something like that.

[Bill Aurion]

I've stopped caring about reviews because there is always bias somewhere in one...I would rather rely on my own taste in games.  As for comparing low sales...

SMS- Obviously not as good Super Mario 64...And it wasn't a launch title...
WW- Sadly, people were turned down by the toon-shading...
F-Zero GX - How can you add this?  It's barely been out a month in the U.S.!

As for the high scores for FFX, some people like watching games...I like to play them...

[mouse_clicker]

Bill: His point was that you can't judge quality by sales. All those games didn't sell as well as previous installments, for any number of reasons, several of which you listed yourself, but that doesn't mean they were bad games by any means.

Urkel: True, gameplay is more important than story in my opinion, but that is no excuse for a bad story. Truly great games find ways to excel in both gameplay and story- just because a game has a bad story doesn't mean it has good gameplay, and just because a game has a good story doesn't mean it has bad story. I personally play games to escape into another world. This becomes difficult when the story is so sterile to the point where it's almost nonexistant that I'm continually reminded I am playing a game.

[Koopa Troopa]

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I guess you guys see yourselves as being more hardcore or superior if you bash Final Fantasy- I bet a lot of you do it just because everyone else does.

Oh yes, we're definitely part of a majority. This is your weakest argument (just for furture reference). As for seeing myself as superior for bashing... No, I praise what deserves praise, and bash what deserves bashing.

Adding sex-appeal (whorifying as I like to call it), is most certainly a legitimate grounding on which to bash.

Anyway, I just wanted chime in and state: I agree with Grey Ninja and Bill. I do so on just about every point. They're my heroes.


Tra-la-la... besides we've all got high hopes for FFXII, even though its most immediate predecessors sucked

I'm naughty.

[Urkel]

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Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
Truly great games find ways to excel in both gameplay and story

Agreed. Though Miyamoto's games are an exception to this. He just focuses on the gameplay, and I don't think it really bothers anybody.

What I was trying to get at in my last post was that there seems to be a certain group of people (that I'm not saying you're apart of, Mouse) that care almost exclusively about story and presentation in RPGs, and it doesn't matter if the gameplay is just an afterthought.

One game that comes to mind is Phantasy Star II. I picked up the Phantasy Star Collection when it came out, having never played the original PS games. PSII seems to be considered one of the best in the series by most accounts. I hated it. I really, really didn't want to, but the more I played it, the less I liked it. Of the three in the collection, that one clearly has the best story, music, character design, and overall presentation, but I just couldn't stand the way they set up the game. The battle system was alright, but the main problem was the hellishly maze-like dungeons. You trudge through so many long, boring dungeons that have tons of forks in the road, and elevators leading to different floors. On top of that, the number of random battles is fairly high. Getting through one of these areas on your first attempt is nearly impossible. The whole game felt like one big chore. I'll just stop right there.

My point is, I think the only reason PSII is regarded so highly is because of it's presentation. I felt mislead, since I never really saw anything bad ever said about that game. Obviously, I wasn't expecting it to be as good as a modern RPG, but I at least expected it to be tolerable.

Again, I'm sure there are people out there that enjoyed the gameplay, but I'm willing to bet that most people who aren't looking at it through nostalgic eyes would feel the same way I do.

I'm not saying that story has absolutely no relevence whatsoever on the overall experience. I just wish that there was more gameplay in a lot of RPGs. I find myself being drawn more and more to stategy RPGs like Final Fantasy Tactics and Front Mission 3, than traditional RPGs. The way I see it, they provide all the story of an RPG, with awesome gameplay. It's an unbeatable combo... almost. The problem is, they don't really provide the same quality of story as an RPG. In theory, they could, but for some reason most SRPG storylines just aren't very exciting, IMO. I loved the gameplay of FFT, but it had one of the most boring and convoluted storylines I have ever seen in a game. There are so many double-crossings in the end that it's impossible to follow. If they fashioned the story more like a typical Final Fantasy game, and less about all this political intrigue crap, it would've been nearly flawless.

[PIAC]

i want a medal, ive never played more than 2 minutes of a final fantasy game (i do own 8 though, found it for $14 in a pawn shop in good condition)

seriously though, all you guys should lay off each other, there is no absolute truth in gaming, if ONE person finds a game fun then the game is fun for them and all other opinions are meaningless, square should make their own console, given they allready have fanboys ;P

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I'm sure that Square could care less for a group of former-fans who dislike the newer FFs since they're bringing in an even larger fan base with the newer Playstation "classics."

err, square, like any other company, are in this buisness to make money, and such dont want to shut off any potential customers, so your statementis frivoless, square (if they had it their way) would have every person on the planet playing Final Fantasy games.


EDIT: oops, didn't notice the 2 other pages of replies, slot this post in at position 20 and it would make more sence ;P

[mouse_clicker]

Bah, I tried to post this this morning, but I couldn't sit here for 40 minutes to see if it worked. Whatever.

Koopa Troopa: Try to support your claims next time. And it isn't my weakest argument. It's the whole selling-out syndrome, except with videogames. A lot of FF fans felt resentful when Final Fantasy got popular and suddenly EVERYONE enjoyed it, not just hardcore gamers. They trained themselves not to like the following FF games and look at where it's gotten you! You're like snooty art critics who flame anyone who doesn't share their opinion, or aren't as "educated" as they are. It's not an argument, it's a fact, and it's painfully obvious where ever I look. Instead of trying to explain to me why they didn't like FFIX, or FFX, they tell me "I can't remember the early days of Final Fantasy". Don't give me that BS! It's just an excuse! As I said, it's exactly like when a ban with a cult following gets popular and the original fans claim they "sold" out and hate them for it. Besides all that, your views are clouded with nostalgia, as a friend of mine put so excellently. You can't enjoy something when you're constantly comparing it something else, which is EXACTLY what you "die hard FF fans" do. It's like watching the movie adaption of a book you loved- of course you're going to hate it because you're never just enjoying it for itself, you're always judging it on how it compares to something else, and quite frankly I'm sick of it. If you don't like the new FF's, whatever, just don't constantly bash it and think you're somehow justified in doing so.

[Grey Ninja]

Mouse Clicker, we told you why we didn't like the newer Final Fantasies.  We explained our reasoning.  If you choose not to listen to us, I have nothing more to say.  You can't argue with someone who's already made up his mind that his own opinion is fact.  Ordinarilly I might be inclined to anyway, but with the server behaving the way it is, I really don't care to.

[mouse_clicker]

I swear, either I'm just the most unclear writer on Earth, or the people I'm debating with don't read my posts.

Ninja, I don't CARE what your reasons are for disliking the later Final Fantasy games, that's NOT what pisses me off. Althoguh I do have other opinions on that matter, what I'm REALLY mad at is the fact that you feel the need to express your opinion all the time. I'm sure many of you do have very legitimate reasons for disliking the games (not all of you), but that's doesn't mean you should bleat it out every chance you get. In fact, it was YOU, Ninja, who turned this thread into a bash fest of the post FF6 games, from the very first post. DrForester started this thread to discuss the new FFXII website and you single handedly turned into a thread who's sole intention was to bash Final Fantasy. Regardless of your reasoning for not liking the games, how do you justify that? How?? It just doesn't make any sense to me. You take the thread, bend it to your own will, then get pissed off when people call you on it! ONCE is enough to say you hate Final Fantasy- anymore is bashing, and you're just acting like the many groups of people you hate. If someone is talking about Final Fantasy but not in the context of the quality of the last 4 entries, you have absolutely no reason to make it such.

[rpglover]

mouse- i think grey just wants to point out the fact that he has been dissapointed with the newer final fantasy games (as i have been too) and he shows this to get his major point accross: that he hopes final fantasy XII will be a return to the final fantasy games of old- i personally feel the same as he does- and i am sorry that we voice our opinions on the matter so often- but that is just how it is- but i feel that final fantasy XII could be great just because of the talent behind the whole thing- the director of it has worked on two of my favorite games of all time- ff tactics and vagrant story- hopefully the game will meet my expectations- we will see november 19  

[Marcus Arillius]

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Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
People that constantly bash the current Final Fantasies always come off as uptight snobs to me. They feel like they're the expect authority on how an RPG should be played, and yet they find no better use for those skills than to bash the hell out of every Final Fantasy game after 6. You get to the point where you expect each following FF game to be horrible, so it should come as no surprise to do when you think they ARE horrible, since you've embedded yourself so deeply in that mindset that you weren't going to change your opinion no matter how good or bad the game actually was. .

My sentiments exactly.

Final Fantasy 2 (american version) is what turned me on to the series and i have liked all of the final fantasies a lot since then.  However, I will say that I liked FF10 the least, but it was still liked.  What was wrong with the other Final fantasies?  Saying it "sucked" or "didn't suck" isn't going to help either.

[Grey Ninja]

How was I bashing Final Fantasy?  I was bashing 8 - 11, in favor of commending Final Fantasy XII.

Think of it this way.  If someone came in here and said:  "YAY!  Nintendo GameCube is the first Nintendo console that hasn't sucked since SNES!"  What would you say?

Now, I am primarilly commenting on certain parts of your last post.

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A lot of FF fans felt resentful when Final Fantasy got popular and suddenly EVERYONE enjoyed it, not just hardcore gamers.

I don't even see how this is an issue.  We explained why we didn't like the newer stuff.  We all had very legitimate reasons for not liking the newer ones.  The QUALITY just wasn't there.  In case you hadn't noticed, we have very little bad to say about FF7.  Yet it is the most popular of all.  The only bad thing that we say about it is that it is the inferior game when compared to FF4 or FF6, and it gets all the credit.  Kind of like comparing the Beta with the VHS.  This argument pissed me off because it goes straight in the face of all we have said.

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They trained themselves not to like the following FF games and look at where it's gotten you!

More of the same.  Just to bring you up to speed, we loved Final Fantasy Tactics, which was uber-popular, and we look forward to seeing Final Fantasy XII.

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ou're like snooty art critics who flame anyone who doesn't share their opinion, or aren't as "educated" as they are.

Who would you trust more?  Someone who has read all the LOTR books and seen the movies, or someone who has only seen the movies when talking about what's good or not?

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Instead of trying to explain to me why they didn't like FFIX, or FFX, they tell me "I can't remember the early days of Final Fantasy".

We told you both.  Both are very legitimate reasons why we don't respect your opinion.  Most of "us" I am sure have played all Final Fantasy games, or very close to it.  Can you say the same?  And we did tell you why we didn't like FFIX and X.

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As I said, it's exactly like when a ban with a cult following gets popular and the original fans claim they "sold" out and hate them for it.

Even people who only started with FF7 can usually recognize a clear drop in quality after FF7.  Square sold out when they released Chrono Cross, Legend of Mana, and Final Fantasy IX in a 3 month period in my books.  Every game was a textbook display of complete disaster, not having a great character in any of the games, all of them featuring boring, repetitive gameplay, and all of them having distinctly subpar storylines that did not live up to their predecessors.  Final Fantasy X-2 introduced characters with more skin than clothing.  I have no problem with T&A, but it's like putting a hooker into a Mario game.  It CHEAPENS the experience.  If I want to play a game as a $5 hooker, I will play Tomb Raider, not Final Fantasy.

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If you don't like the new FF's, whatever, just don't constantly bash it and think you're somehow justified in doing so.

I would rather be bashing the new Final Fantasies than defending them without having played anything else.  The problem is that most people don't play any RPGs BUT the new Final Fantasies.  Someone who has never seen an action movie might think that Dr. No or Die Another Day were really good movies.  But when viewed in context, you can clearly see that they are subpar.  Most people saying that the new Final Fantasies have never played any of the RPG greats.  They know not of the genius of Chrono Trigger, Xenogears, Breath of Fire, Valkyrie Profile, Dragon Quest, Tales of Phantasia, or any of the other countless RPGs better than most Final Fantasies.


Mouse Clicker, what I am getting at here is that you are all gung ho at defending something you know nothing about.  If I attacked LOTR after having read The Hobbit and watching 10 minutes of the movie, would you say that I was an ignorant moron, or would you tell me that I was the best judge of what was good and what wasn't?

How about if I said that I loved IGN's informed and fair reviews after reading one half of their review of, say...  Zelda: Wind Waker?  Would you say that I was an uninformed dolt, or that you were just glad that I was happy enjoying IGN?

Or how about those people who have only tried Internet Explorer and don't see the need to switch, because IE "Does everything that they want it to."  Would you call them idiots if they came to a site and complained about popups?  

Anyways, that's my rant for the day.  God I feel good now that I have that out of my system.

[mouse_clicker]

Don't do ANYTHING, Ninja! I don't CARE if you didn't like them- I personally think you have some pretty crappy reasons for thinking as such, but that's just my opinion, which doesn't even apply to the situation.

And obviously you need to read ALL of my posts instead of just skimming through them for a few quotes. My point is NOT that you don't like Final Fantasy (and don't pull that Tactics crap on me- you know full well we're talking about the main series), it's that you bash it CONSTANTLY. Yes, you were bashing the series at the beginning of the thread. You want me to follow your lead and post a quote of YOURS? Deal:

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posted by Grey Ninja Fri September 26, 2003 1:17 AM:
That same goddamned poster. When are they actually going to show something to back up my words that this might be the first Final Fantasy that hasn't sucked since #6?

How is that NOT bashing Final Fantasy? You said every FF game after FFVI sucked! Listen- this isn't about opinions on Final Fantasy, so whether I've played NONE or ALL of them shouldn't matter one bit. It's the fact that have you absolutely nothing better to do than bash the game whenever the opportunity arises that pisses me off. You didn't have anything to comment on about the FFXII site, so you did the next best thing- bashed FFVII-X. If you didn't have anything to say, why did you say anything at all? The thread title is "Final Fantasy 12 Website Up And Running", not "How much do FFVII, VIII, IX, and X suck?". Maybe you misread it, I don't know, but that's what you DID. Don't give me this BS about me not "remembering the early days"- thats your elitist attitude pissing me off again, and I think you'll find the only people it doesn't piss off are the same elitist @$$holes saying the same thing. GET A LIFE! If the topic calls for your opinion on Final Fantasy, offer it up, but you're going to look like an even more hopeless dork than me when you have to be the guy that ALWAYS says FF sucks. Just shut up already! I'm sick and tired of it! Make your own thread where you and your buddies can bash it to your heart's content, but leave the threads for actual discussion about the GAMES to other people. Jesus christ, you'd think that even YOU would realise that you're spouting out the same useless cap over and over and over again by now, but for some reason you haven't! What do I have to do to get it through your guys' heads that we don't want to hear how "FFVIII was no better than Superman 64", or how there was "clearly a drop in quality after the 7th Final Fantasy", or how "Square sold out after Chrono Cross". I don't may not like it when people disagree with me, but I only flame them when they're being such incredible jerks that they deserve it. All I ask is for you to LEAVE the discussions about the game to people who actually want to discuss the game, and leave your snooty, superior attitude out of it if you can't restrain yourself from bashing the games for even just a second. Good god.  

[Grey Ninja]

Just had a lot of drinks, had a crappy night, and am not in a friendly mood, so I will put it more bluntly this time.

This is a message board.  People post their opinions.  If you can't handle that, you shouldn't be here.

[Celebi]

I have a suggestion you can go to Team Xbox to bash the FF series over there.LOL
The site even wrote an article that IBM is developing a CPU for the Xbox 2.How desperate they are..
http://www.the-inquirer.com/?article=11860
Funny thing is that they took the site down a few hours later.

[Marcus Arillius]

please disregard my previous post where I said "tell me why you didn't like it" or something to that effect.  I had only read the first few comments before posting and then read most of them and realized there was no need for the post. I've really gotta stop doing that. Also, i would have just gone and edited but the forums are being really craptacular and slow today, and i don't have the time to sit and wait to go through and find my post and blah blah blah.

[GLAKO-FAHN]

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Originally posted by: Urkel
I loved the gameplay of FFT, but it had one of the most boring and convoluted storylines I have ever seen in a game. There are so many double-crossings in the end that it's impossible to follow. If they fashioned the story more like a typical Final Fantasy game, and less about all this political intrigue crap, it would've been nearly flawless.

Whooooooooooaaaaaaaa! Nuh-uh! You're entitled to your opinion in saying the story is boring; however, you may not say it is convoluted! Its a work of concise brilliance, leaving quite a bit to be thought through, not only the surface - which is a good thing. I also loved the gameplay of FFT.

[seven_chaos]

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Originally posted by: Grey Ninja
Just had a lot of drinks, had a crappy night, and am not in a friendly mood, so I will put it more bluntly this time.

This is a message board.  People post their opinions.  If you can't handle that, you shouldn't be here.

GO YOU!!!


This whole final fantasy situation reminds me of that whole stupid mario kart ign crap.   HAHAHAHA.  I started out with VII.  YES, it is my favorite of the main series.  Uhhhhhhh, but I have to admit, that Tactics is my favorite FF PERIOD.  OLD SCHOOL RULES.  I am currently playing through Final Fantasy .  I love it.  We need a new FF that is 2D but hella high quality.  That would bring tears to my eyes.  Uhhhhhhhhhhh.  As far as XII, it looks good.  I have high hopes.  It looked like they are now using pre-rendered backgrounds again. WOO HOO!  AND A WORLD MAP!  OK, I am done now.

[Inkwell]

I must be the only one who completely hates FFVII. Everything about the game just...sucks; the gamplay, the characters (sephiroth...what a joke) and esp. the music (except for the desert prison). I just don't see why everyone like the game. But oddly enough I like all the other FF games.  

[Cypher9]

ya i agree, the only good FF that i thought were out there was the old skool FF2, and FF7, those were classics of course, but Fvcking-A! wuts up w/ FFCC, that looks so dumb, they should bring some old skool back like from FF7 but not a sequal, just better!!!

[Bloodworth]

endless FF ranting aaaagghhh

The same argument for what six years now??  AAAAAGHGH