Topic: Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze Delayed to 2014

[Adrock]

Rhetorical question was rhetorical.

Tropical Freeze is not a waste of their talent because it will reach a larger group of people than just about anything else they could be working on otherwise. You call it redundant and idiotic. Well, someone better tell Microsoft to stop making Halo because there's a metric **** ton on first person shooters on Xbox. And speaking of first person shooters, no one is buying a Wii U for the genre as shown by ZombiU which was awesome). They might for 2D platformers because other consoles aren't as well represented in the genre.

Artistically and creatively, sure, I'd like to see Retro Studios work on something beyond Metroid and Donkey Kong. However, calling their work, whatever it may be, a waste of their talent is the worst kind of hyperbole, but also kind of insulting to the effort they're putting into their games.

[Luigi Dude]

A genre that wouldn't be a waste of Retro's talents would be one that Nintendo does not already have multiple teams working on.  EAD and Good Feel are already cranking out 2D platformers for Nintendo.  I don't know what HAL is currently working on but their last Wii game was also a 2D platformer.  So Nintendo already has three other devs working on this genre and thus Retro should do it, too?  Meanwhile Nintendo is completely ignoring entire genres including the FPS genre which is, you know, the most popular one going right now.  Metroid Prime filled a hole in Nintendo's lineup that no one else was filling.  In comparison, DKC is redundant.  That doesn't make it a bad game, but it's idiotic to put so much attention on the 2D genre while other genres are completely ignored.

Nintendo's got Platinum Games working for them these days and they're not working on the same types of games other Nintendo devs are already working on.  That's a full use of their talents as they can fill a hole and provide variety to Nintendo's lineup.  Retro has provided no variety for Nintendo since Metroid Prime 3.

Once again, Retro wanted to make a sequel to Donkey Kong Country Returns.  Retro could have made something else but they choose to make a sequel because they still had a lot of idea's left over from DKCR that they wanted to do. 

Seriously, you're the guy constantly complaining about Nintendo not giving their developers any freedom, and yet when Retro choose to make something you don't like, you now demand that Nintendo should force them to make something different.

[Shaymin]

I for one appreciate Retro's talents being used on a good game rather than another grimdark shooter.

[broodwars]

Once again, Retro wanted to make a sequel to Donkey Kong Country Returns.  Retro could have made something else but they choose to make a sequel because they still had a lot of idea's left over from DKCR that they wanted to do.

Personally, I'll be inclined to actually believe anything Retro publicly says on this matter when Iwata isn't signing their checks.  The same goes for any developer owned by a big publisher, for that matter.  You don't bite the hand that feeds you.

As for this game, much like Ian I find this game to be a waste of Retro's talents for several reasons:

1. We're good on platformers right now, especially 2D ones.  We don't need any more, I personally don't want any more (I've always preferred 3D platformers), and Nintendo needs coverage in other genres if the Wii U is ever going to look less like a colossal joke than it already does.

2. I like 2D platformers.  Seriously, I just gushed about Puppeteer for a half hour on the last NFR.  However, to me 2D platformers are a so-called "lesser genre". As we've seen on Kickstarter and the Indie scene, just about anyone can and do make them (and, more importantly, every other division of Nintendo canand DOES make them), often for very little money and with substantially less effort than games in other genres.  If Retro's going to spend 3-4 years on a game, I'd rather it be yet another 2D platformer. And seriously, what about yet another 2D DKC retread takes 3-4 years to make?

3. It's Donkey Kong. Despite my overall fondness for the DKC series, DK is one of the blandest characters in Nintendo's already bland selection of characters.  If Retro had to work on a Nintendo franchise (because hey...heaven forbid Nintendo actually come up with anything new), why DK? Why not give Retro a chance to spread their wings a bit & revive another old Nintendo franchise we haven't seen in a while? Oh right...because the Wii U is a flop, and Nintendo is desperate for just about anything recognizable to sell the thing. Nevermind...

There are just so many more interesting games Retro could be making than yet another DKC retread. I still want to play the game because it is Retro and DKCR was good, but it's disappointing.

[broodwars]

Edit: "If Retro's going to spend 3-4 years on a game, I'd rather it NOT be yet another 2D platformer."

[Ian Sane]

To me the whole appeal of the 2D platformer revival was that that genre had been dormant for a while so it was really cool to get some new games in that retro style.  And then Nintendo decided that that was going to be their main genre.  As a periodic "remember this?" release it's retro.  As a routine thing it's just OLD.

The Wii U is supposed to be a modern console and yet Nintendo is pushing a genre that peaked twenty years ago.  I need a Wii U to play games that could probably have been made on the Super Nintendo?  This is like if on the SNES Nintendo focused tons of effort on Pac-Man style single-screen maze games.  Hell, this is pretty much exactly how Atari flunked out with the 7800.  They were offering old high score based single screen arcade games to compete with Super Mario Bros, Castlevania and Mega Man.  N64 platformers like Super Mario 64 and Banjo-Kazooie seem incredibly ambitious compared to Nintendo's modern 2D platformers.

How about Retro work on something that comes across as modern?  Maybe something that could ONLY be done on present day hardware that would introduce new ideas and concepts that future games would feel inspired to copy?  Retro made two Wii games.  Metroid Prime 3 is perhaps the most ambitious Wii game, making full use of both the hardware and the controller.  DKC Returns only uses the controller for waggle and its 2D design is such that aside from a hit to the graphics it could have easily been made for older hardware.  The more ambitious game is ironically the OLDER one.  They're going backwards.

What successful console has ever sold on old ass ideas?  Even the Wii with it's glorified refurbed Gamecube hardware still sold on Wii Sports which used the unique features of the console in a way that could never have been done on any previous console.  You HAD to buy a Wii to play Wii Sports.  No one needs to buy a Wii U to play practically ANY of the games Nintendo has offered except Nintendo Land.  They're on the Wii U entirely because Nintendo decided to put them there.  Even Pikmin 3, which is probably the most ambitious Wii U title, doesn't do anything that couldn't have been done on the PS3 or Xbox 360 years ago.  The only reason it isn't on those older consoles that are in theory part of the previous generation is because Nintendo owns the IP and wouldn't support the competitor.  But if you wanted to make a game just like it you wouldn't need to make it on the Wii U (or the PS4 or XB1 since that's the true competition here).

So I would say at this point when Nintendo needs to try to sell Wii Us a game like DKC which does not offer any gameplay experience that is truly new that someone HAS to buy a Wii U for is a waste of, hell, ANY dev's talents.  Compare this to something like Super Mario 64 which could never have been done on any console prior to the N64/PS1 generation or really any of the N64 games that came out within that first year.  The N64 had its third party problems but there is no doubt that Nintendo's games were doing things no one had seen before.  The Wii U has all the third party problems but without the cutting edge games.

[Adrock]

To me the whole appeal of the 2D platformer revival was that that genre had been dormant for a while so it was really cool to get some new games in that retro style.

Don't 2D Mario platformers routinely outsell the 3D ones? I could have sworn Luigi Dude posted sales data of that which I'm too lazy to look for. If that's the case, it seems like people just like the genre. It was neglected because everyone, including Nintendo, thought people just wanted 3D. If it was all just a nostalgia trip, those games would have stopped selling. Look at JRPGs. They were booming in the late 1990s and early 2000s, but they've been relegated to niche status since.

How about Retro work on something that comes across as modern?  Maybe something that could ONLY be done on present day hardware that would introduce new ideas and concepts that future games would feel inspired to copy?

What the hell does that first question even mean? And why are you suggesting that something "modern" automatically means "better?"

As for the second question, good luck with that. Asking a developer to just revolutionize game design is no easy task. More importantly, a developer is capable of doing that in any genre, but when was the last time anyone has done that? Off the top of my head, I'm thinking Shinji Mikami with Resident Evil 4. I don't know if he invented the over the shoulder third person aiming, but games started adopting it after RE4.

What successful console has ever sold on old ass ideas?

Is that a serious question? Many of the really popular games this past generation were based on old ideas. I'm curious what games you're alluding to that are filled with all of these new ideas that inspire other game designers and can't be done on existing hardware. I'm going to be honest, there has been nothing shown on PS4/One that I feel couldn't be done on their predecessors other than graphics. That's why I'm waiting until 2015 at the earliest to pick up a PS4.

So I would say at this point when Nintendo needs to try to sell Wii Us a game like DKC which does not offer any gameplay experience that is truly new that someone HAS to buy a Wii U for is a waste of, hell, ANY dev's talents.

Are you buying a PS4 or One at launch? Either way, what cutting edge games coming out for them do you want to buy? If you're going to rant up the forums and make claims that Nintendo isn't presenting new ideas, it's only natural that you should follow up with examples of games and developers that are pushing the creative envelope.

[ThePerm]

This whole thread is hyperbole. I don't think Wii U is going anywhere. Nintendo will not discontinue a console. They will be delusional about what they need to do for success.  The ywill try until they are moderately successful.

[ThePerm]

yeah, not being able to edit sucks. Anyway. They Will Be at least moderately successful. I expect Nintendo to sell no less then 30 million Consoles.

[azeke]

Playing games? Pffffft. Aint nobody got time for that. I've got walls of texts about imaginary slights to dump.


Playing videogames... Yeah, right.

[Luigi Dude]

Don't 2D Mario platformers routinely outsell the 3D ones? I could have sworn Luigi Dude posted sales data of that which I'm too lazy to look for. If that's the case, it seems like people just like the genre. It was neglected because everyone, including Nintendo, thought people just wanted 3D. If it was all just a nostalgia trip, those games would have stopped selling. Look at JRPGs. They were booming in the late 1990s and early 2000s, but they've been relegated to niche status since.

Yep, from Nintendo's own sales data.

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/sales/software/wii.html

New Super Mario Bros Wii - 27.88 million

Super Mario Galaxy - 11.72 million


And just for fun, here's the sales for the other 2D Platformers released on the Wii that broke a million in a single year.


Donkey Kong Country Returns - 4.98 million (These sales are from March 31st 2011, so the game easily surpassed the 5 million mark by now)

Kirby's Epic Yarn - 1.59 million

Kirby's Return to Dream Land - 1.31 million

No sales for Wario Land Shake were ever released since it never managed to sell over a million in any individual year.  Of course it doesn't matter since Good Feel's second game was a success hence why they're making a 2D Yoshi for the Wii U.


So yeah, unlike what Ian might think, the sales show that Nintendo's 2D Platformers on home consoles are still pretty popular to a lot of people.

[smallsharkbigbite]

Once again, Retro wanted to make a sequel to Donkey Kong Country Returns.  Retro could have made something else but they choose to make a sequel because they still had a lot of idea's left over from DKCR that they wanted to do.

The team probably gets bonuses based on the sales of the game. If true they would no doubt pick the game with higher potential sales. They'd probably pick another NSMB over DKC given the option.

[Ian Sane]

What the hell does that first question even mean? And why are you suggesting that something "modern" automatically means "better?"

What I'm saying is that if Nintendo is going to tell me that I need to spend a couple hundred bucks on a new videogame system to play their games they better be offering games that actually require a new console.  That's why having modern games is important.  It makes no sense to move to new hardware if the developers do nothing new with it.  And I'm not praising the PS4 or XB1 here, just pointing out that the Wii U is selling poorly and Nintendo considers it a top priority to pump out multiple games from multiple teams with old-fashioned gameplay.  Not like those games are bad or new games are automatically better but it makes no sense to use them to push a new console.
 
As for 2D Mario's sales, how about you bust out NSMB U's numbers because that's what matters here.  So all these retro games sold well on the Wii, the console that everyone owned.  Did all these people buy a Wii for NSMB Wii or did they buy it for Wii Sports?  They came for Wii Sports and stayed for NSMB.  Wii U doesn't really have a Wii Sports equivalent aside from maybe Nintendo Land but that seems to lack the "dream game" wish fulfillment that Wii Sports offered.  When having to face the responsibility of selling a new console NSMB U has come up embarrassingly short.  Mario Kart didn't move Gamecubes but was a massive hit on the Wii.  What the hell is the difference between Double Dash and Mario Kart Wii that would cause that?  It seems to me that one was on a console that underachieved while the other was on one that sold like hotcakes, to the point that it would instantly sell out of every store for a span of two years, on the strength of a killer app with arguably the most massive mainstream appeal any videogame has ever had.
 
I think Nintendo thinks the same way.  They see that games x, y and z sold big on the Wii and figured that conventional follow-ups would sell Wii U's but they failed to analyze exactly what sold the Wii in the first place.  And this out-of-nowhere Wii Sports remake suggests that they noticed Wii Sports was missing and quickly included it but still miss the point because Wii Sports, the literal game, wasn't the core selling point.  The selling point was the new idea that Wii Sports brought forward and now it's no longer new.  They don't need a new Wii Sports but rather the next Wii Sports, the next game that pushes a new idea that catches on and sells consoles.

[Mop it up]

I wasn't planning to get this game on launch anyway, and I'm still not, so this doesn't really affect me personally.