Author Topic: Nintendo Is A Mountain: NWR Staff Chats Wii U Third Party Support  (Read 13403 times)

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Offline bluelander

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Is Nintendo in GameCube Mode or just plain ol' Nintendo Mode?

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/roundtable/34887

After last week's comments from Nintendo President Satoru Iwata about third party support on Wii U, some Nintendo World Report staff members got into a rousing discussion about how all of us (save Carmine) are pretty annoyed with it all. Let us know what you think about the situation in the comments.

Neal Ronaghan: Nintendo’s last investor Q&A featured a question focused around the dismal third party support on Wii U. How do you feel about Iwata’s response and the potential for third party support on Wii U to improve?

Justin Baker: We can all see that the Wii U has been struggling with third parties, but his solution just seems backwards. To get more third parties they're going to release more first party games? I see what they're doing, but we're too far along for the "make it look good and third parties will flock to it" stage.

I think Nintendo is just shrinking back into its shell and going into GameCube Mode: get some great first party games rolling and float your platform with it. They seem to forget that what made the Wii so attractive to third parties -- and shovelware developers -- wasn't that it had great first party support, it was that it was flying into homes at a breakneck pace due to the Wii Sports phenomenon.

As a Nintendo gamer, I'm excited that they're dedicated to pumping out those first party games I love. As just a gamer in general, I'm frustrated that they're pretty much telling me I'll need to own more than one console if I want to play anything not developed by them. There's no shame in welcoming (and encouraging) multiplatform games as long as they're not totally inept.

Neal: Totally. The mentality still seems to be “we’ll do our thing and publishers will come to us.” While companies like EA and Activision will never overtly say “Nintendo isn’t our focus,” Nintendo isn’t their focus. Just recently, an EA Sports representative lumped Wii U in with lagging Facebook games. That’s not an EA rep being a jerk; that’s an EA rep laying out a harsh reality.

The Wii U, unfortunately, isn’t a viable platform for a lot of third party games right now, especially since the install bases for its current competition (Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3) are astronomical in comparison. The only way I see the Wii U’s third party support kicking into high gear is if the system sells extremely well this holiday and PlayStation 4 and Xbox One both tank. I guess that does support Iwata’s strategy of just pushing first party games, but it doesn’t seem like something I’d bet much money on.

Carmine Red: I think you guys need to take a step back and look at what Iwata’s actually saying. He never said that he wouldn’t welcome third-party multiplatform games, Justin; in fact, he calls it very much desirable. And I don’t know why you discount Nintendo’s first-party Wii focus when in fact you go on to point towards first-party game Wii Sports as a major reason for that platform’s success.

In fact, the only thing Iwata nixes outright is a policy of money-hatting games (laying out large amounts of cash for exclusive projects or time-exclusivity). The reason for this is that Nintendo would essentially get less games that way, that money could’ve been spent on developing the next Metroid, the next Star Fox, or even a new IP. Instead, Iwata wants games that come naturally to the Wii U, not games that he’d have to bribe into existence by sacrificing his company’s own development efforts.

Is that naive? Maybe so. But I think that sort of naiveté is not new to any long-time Nintendo watchers. Nintendo wants natural growth, but their cultural, philosophical, and technological heritage sets them apart from where many of today’s developers seem to be “naturally” growing towards. I’m not about to say that Nintendo exceptionalism is a bad thing, but I do believe it’s a reason that this has been a recurring issue for Nintendo that has been so difficult to solve.

So while I definitely believe that Nintendo would welcome more third-party Wii U support, I don’t believe there’s much that Iwata can do in the short term to address the persistent causes behind that. The only further short-term strategy I could envision beyond what Iwata lays out is a price-cut/value-proposition this fall in an attempt to motivate hardware sales, similar to what they did with the 3DS. However, with Nintendo’s current fiscal goals and situation, I’m not sure that’s a fiscally viable move.

Does this mean the Wii U will have a rocky generation ahead of it for third-party support? I believe that key titles in the Wii U’s third-party library make it better than the Nintendo 64 or GameCube, but I do think it’s useful to start making those comparisons. That sort of history just goes to show that this isn’t some new problem for the company, nor is it one easily solved.

Justin Baker: I see what you're saying, Carmine, but let's be clear: this is business. Whether the games come naturally or not the fact remains that right now they simply aren't coming at all. If Nintendo wants to have business success with the Wii U, they need to go out there and make that happen. I love Nintendo, and I want them to continue to be the creative powerhouse I know they can be, but that means they need to engage in some hard business with third parties to ensure that future.

Yes, first party games are their strength, but right now the Wii U is in dire need of those as well. Yes, in comparison to past efforts, the Wii U may look appealing, but gaming has grown a lot in recent years, and just having a few good games isn't enough to float a major platform anymore. The goofy, creative Nintendo we all know and love was built on the back of the hardcore, strong-arming, lawyer-slinging Nintendo of the early 90s, and right now they could use some of that old mojo.

I'm certainly not discounting the power of Nintendo's first party titles, I'm just frustrated with their release schedule. Wii Sports was big because it came with the system at launch and put it on many more shelves than it would have been otherwise. I would say it was successful not only because it was fun an innovative, but because it was planned, released, and marketed well. Nintendo doesn't have very many major first party titles ready for release, and they need to push for third parties to fill that gap. Being welcoming isn't enough right now, they need to be competitive.

Michael “TYP” Cole: The more things change, the more they stay the same. Justin hit the nail right on the head: Nintendo is in full-blown GameCube Mode. Nintendo is and always has been a very risk-averse company. They took an uncharacteristically big chance with Wii and Wii Sports, knowing they had something special, and it paid out big, but the company has become increasingly gun-shy after Wii’s momentum petered out and their soft 3DS and Wii U launches.

I agree with Iwata’s sentiments that successful first party titles have to lead the way. The problem is, I really don’t think Nintendo’s current lineup will convince western publishers of anything. Their big GamePad title, Nintendo Land, failed to make big waves, and instead of doubling down on the GamePad’s unique features Nintendo is falling back on its predictable, familiar franchises to build a safety net with their base. But those iterative releases are known quantities, and Mario Kart 8 or Super Mario 3D World selling a million-plus units aren’t going to resonate with third parties. If Nintendo wants to impress western third parties, Nintendo needs to market its wild-card titles more heavily in the hopes of something like Bayonetta 2 or (later) X becoming a breakout hit. It also wouldn’t hurt if they actively marketed what makes the Wii U version of multiplatform releases best, instead of assuming consumers will somehow come to that conclusion on their own with the PS4 and Xbox One dangling in front of them. Finally, Nintendo needs to fund and actively participate in the development of at least one high-profile, brand new Nintendo-published title that appeals to western but not necessarily Japanese tastes. Nintendo needs another GoldenEye. Badly.

Neal: Oh man, they totally need a new GoldenEye! Even their premier Western developers are working on very Japanese games. I won’t complain much about the proven/apparent quality of Luigi’s Mansion: Dark Moon or the newer Donkey Kong Country games, but those are both examples of Western developers making more Eastern games, or more accurately, Western developers making games that Nintendo’s Japanese staff could likely make if they had the time (which they clearly don’t).

To Carmine’s point about the Wii U third-party lineup already being stronger than some of Nintendo’s past ones, I agree. The third-party launch lineup was pretty solid, despite being filled with enhanced ports of preexisting games. What concerns me is the future. Ubisoft is supporting the Wii U this year with ports of all their major titles. However, Ubisoft’s CEO just said they’re lukewarm with the Wii U and if it doesn’t work out for them this year, their support will be cut even more.

After that, what major third-parties are out there? I’m sure Warner Bros.’ disastrous and non-communicative handling of DLC for Injustice won’t engender more people to buy their titles on Nintendo platforms. EA is in a wait-and-see holding pattern, and Activision is likely only supporting it with Skylanders and low-budget licensed titles. And while Nintendo won’t do moneyhats, they did their version of it with Sega and Sonic (as far as we know, no money exchanged hands, but Nintendo did do a “Sega Direct” for it). The main reason that happened? Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed sold really well on Wii U.

That’s why I don’t think Nintendo games selling well will make third-parties flock back. And that might be impossible because it seems no company realizes that when you release a game on a new platform a few weeks after it comes out on platforms a lot of people own, no one outside of a small group cares. Why did Sonic Racing sell well? The Wii U version was out at the same time as everything else. Why did Skylanders, Call of Duty, Madden, Mass Effect, Need for Speed, FIFA, Assassin’s Creed, Batman, etc. sell poorly? Because you could buy it cheaper on nearly every other platform at the same time it was available on Wii U. Apparently that’s a foreign concept to everybody that they’ll probably learn when PlayStation 4 and Xbox One launch with an oddly parallel third-party launch lineup of “games that came out weeks and months before on 360, PS3 and PC.”

Zach Miller:Nintendo games selling well aren’t going to restore the faith of third parties because it’s never worked in the past. Wait, am I wrong? Didn’t third parties start eagerly bombarding the N64 and GameCube with original titles once Nintendo got the ball rolling on them? No? Wait, how about the Wii? No? ****. Okay, definitely the 3DS, though...hmmm. The fact of the matter is, this is just something we’re gonna have to live with from now on. Nintendo always talks a big game of having great third party support OUT OF THE GATE, but that support instantly dries up. Every time.

What’s really disappointing to me is that Iwata seems to genuinely believe that they’ll come back, hat in hand, begging forgiveness, once New Super Mario Bros. 3D World U come out and becomes the system’s top seller...among Nintendo fans. No, dude, developers have clearly gotten into comfort zones on Sony and Microsoft’s platforms, and if there was money to be made on the Wii U, they’d develop for it. It’s as simple as that! A new Mario Kart might tempt Jon Lindemann to buy a Wii U (in 2014--good job, guys), and probably a lot of other people, but are the numbers going to be so good that Activision springs into action on a Wii U-specific Call of Duty game? No, don’t be STUPID. That’s not how it works.

In these troubled times, Nintendo has to be willing to do what Iwata clearly isn’t willing to do: pay somebody to make some games for them. He calls it “subsidizing.” I call it “something you’re going to have to live with,” but Nintendo is a proud company and unwilling to publicly admit that their strategy isn’t working. Jesus, throw some dough at one of the big-name third party developers like Activision Blizzard or Ubisoft and get an exclusive game that people actually want, from a popular franchise. An exclusive Assassin’s Creed or...uh...what does Activision have besides Call of Duty and Skylanders? Throw a giant bag of cash at EA to make that Tiger Woods game we all wanted after you revealed the GamePad. Give us a Madden game where you can create plays on the GamePad--something it seems to have been designed specifically around.

Here’s another brilliant idea: market your goddamn console. We’re eight or nine months into this system’s underwhelming life, and I’ve seen exactly ONE magazine ad for it in Entertainment Weekly, of all places. No ads in gaming magazines, which is where I’d expect to see them. You’ve gotta give up on the Oprah crowd, Nintendo. Your success with the Wii was a fluke, nothing more, nothing you can repeat. But hey, you must know that because you’re not even trying.

Alex Culafi:Sometimes it’s hard to be a Nintendo fanboy, man. The Wii U is in horrible shape right now even in considering its somewhat-recent launch, Nintendo is doing a bad job of marketing its console, and the company is doing an even worse job of putting games on it. In reality, yes, if you spend too much money on exclusivity rights, your business could be put into bad shape. However, I have to wonder if Iwata is stupid, lying, delusional, or all three to think that doing none of it and letting your first-party support be JUST good enough for emaciated to not be the word associated with that paltry lineup is the way to keep your system going. How insane does this man have to be to think that doing nothing is the way to go?

The other thing about the news story that is making me particularly angry is the quote that "other big publishers have made all of their main titles available for the platform". Congratulations, Iwata. You got Batman: Arkham City and a cancelled port of Aliens: Colonial Marines. Whoop-de-doo. He sounds like a child making excuses about why he didn’t do his homework, and it is a little sickening. I want to like Wii U and use mine more than I have been, but Nintendo’s inaction and their bizarre level of pride and excuses is making me a little jealous of the people who had the ability to wait until the platform had more interesting and appealing games released on it (and I don’t even disagree that it will EVENTUALLY have those games). In other words, Nintendo needs to make a case this holiday season about why I should spend my consumer dollars on a Wii U (hypothetically) instead of a PS4 or Xbox One. If they can’t make that case and decide to kick their feet up, decide against rolling up their sleeves, point to what almost amounts to a port of Wind Waker, and say “checkmate” to the competition, Nintendo will deserve 100% of the indifference it gets this holiday season and more.

And yet, despite my anger, I still continue to argue that the phrase “Never give up on Nintendo” still rings true. I just want them to prove it to me.

Carmine: @Justin: Yes, this is a business. And Nintendo’s in the business of developing their own video games, not having other people develop video games for them. This is what I mean about “Nintendo Exceptionalism.” Nintendo is unique in that they don’t want to “win” the console war. They’d like to, but to them the ends (becoming #1 console) simply don’t justify the means (drastically changing their company culture and philosophy). Make no mistake about it, Nintendo wants to make money, but they want to make money by making Nintendo games, not by becoming Microsoft Game Studios.

@Zach: That means you’re right, one way for Nintendo to seriously attack the third-party support problem is to do what Iwata isn’t keen on: spending money. Now, Iwata knows that you need to spend money to make money, but the company has just posted two consecutive annual operating losses, and Iwata has made a commitment to returning to profitability. Read between the lines and this is how that should read: Iwata doesn’t want to dig himself an even deeper hole. Why do you think he took the time to crow about the Streetpass DLC numbers? He wanted to specifically point out that Nintendo was making money on it WITHOUT any advertising. So if you’re expecting Nintendo to all of a sudden go deep with an expensive advertising campaign, think again. They’ll spend money, sure, but I doubt they’ll spend anything game-changing.

@TYP: You say that Nintendo’s in “full-blown GameCube Mode.” I disagree. I think they’re in full-blown “Nintendo mode.” Basically, Iwata’s game plan (drive momentum with good first-party titles) has always been Nintendo’s modus operandi. In truth, that’s never really varied that much, the only thing that’s varied is the particulars of how successful the strategy was in any one generation. Wii Sports set the world on fire, Nintendo Land did not. Pikmin didn’t make the GameCube fly off shelves, but Nintendogs really revitalized the DS. Animal Crossing couldn’t save either the N64 or GC, but it seems to have really boosted the 3DS. Nintendo has only one strategy throughout the ages: make what they think are good Nintendo games. As for the results? Well, it’s been said that the Japanese characters for “Nintendo” can roughly be translated to “a corporation whose fortune or prosperity should be left to the mercy of heaven.”

@ Alex: Consider this: Iwata isn’t insane. He would just rather Nintendo return to profitability sooner rather than later, and if that means he’s not going to make any big bets in order to supercharge the Wii U, well then so be it. Like I mentioned earlier, this is Nintendo Exceptionalism: a billion-dollar global entertainment powerhouse and trailblazer... with a “Type B Personality.” So what if the Wii U doesn’t fulfill the promise of a second Nintendo imperial dynasty? To Nintendo, the important thing is that they survive to keep making the games that they want to make. For that they need operational profits, not marketshare.

In conclusion: consider the Akira Kurosawa film Kagemusha. In it, a Japanese Clan’s lord dies and his retainers secretly substitute a thief with an uncanny resemblance so their enemies don’t suspect weakness. At a crucial point in the film, the thief, who everyone believes to be the feudal lord, is asked for a strategy for an impending battle. Since he doesn’t know any combat strategy, he simply spouts the clan’s motto, something which roughly translates to “the mountain does not move.” The clan wins the battle, as they are virtually unbeatable on their own land, and when fighting defensively.

The moral of the story? That clan may never control all of Japan, and Nintendo may never truly win the console war. But they’ll survive, and they’ll survive by doing what they do best and by avoiding over-extending themselves. That’s the mindset Nintendo has. That’s why they’ve never conclusively solved the third-party problem. And that’s why Iwata’s third-party plan seems unexciting and unambitious. Nintendo is a mountain, and the mountain does not move. It simply endures.

This is why it’s so hard to be a Nintendo fan. You going into this thinking you’ve picked a winner. But the simple fact is that Nintendo’s not a winner. Nintendo’s a survivor.


Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Nintendo Is A Mountain: NWR Staff Chats Wii U Third Party Support
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2013, 01:06:13 PM »
I get the idea that Nintendo can't just give moneyhats to everyone.  But if the console sells well they won't have to.  Third parties will want to release games on the Wii U.  I think some key moneyhats on big titles that have a strong potential to sell systems would be worthwhile to expand the userbase.  The third party support will follow the expanded userbase and then Nintendo doesn't have to give out moneyhats anymore.  I think Iwata is scared that it will set a precedent and every third party will ask for a handout.  Moneyhats are only necessary when you have no leverage.  Once you've got the sales, you've got the leverage and can play hardball with third parties.  Any third party that got a moneyhat may try to ask for another one later but if the Wii U is selling well are they really going to just ditch the Wii U and piss away all those potential sales?

Nintendo is very reluctant to spend $100 today to make $1000 tomorrow.  The Wii U is not going to sell on first party games simply because Nintendo cannot possibly make enough games in enough time.  They've demonstrated that they are very slow at HD development.  They absolutely need third party games to fill the gaps.  Moneyhats today could be necessary to sell enough systems to get over that initial hump where the userbase is big enough to attract support the "natural" way.

I don't think that third party support is all that is at stake here.  The Wii U is selling poorly enough that I question if it will be viable in the longterm for Nintendo.  I don't think coasting with no real effort for the next five years is even an option.  Plus I can't imagine that Wii U customers would be happy about that and people that are unsatisfied with your current console are reluctant to buy your next one.  That's why I don't have a Wii U.  In the longterm Nintendo can't just offer a lousy product generation after generation and expect their customers to stay loyal.  At some point they have to get their act together and if Iwata is not willing to do that then he needs to decide to pursue other endeavours.

Offline smallsharkbigbite

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Re: Nintendo Is A Mountain: NWR Staff Chats Wii U Third Party Support
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2013, 01:41:53 PM »
If Nintendo's conservative approach will lead to profit, why are they likely on their way to a third straight year of operating loss?  I also think at some point you have to question Nintendo as a hardware manufacturer. What I mean is Wiifit, Mario, MarioKart all sold > 30 million on the Wii. At 60/game that's 2 billion in revenue a game. And they have other very strong franchises as well. At what point is the Wii U lack of userbase hurt the profits of internally developped software to the point that Nintendo could make more as a third party?

I hate the the all or nothing moneyhats argument. Nintendo needs to spend smartly and not spend themselves into bankruptcy. Other companies figure it out. Also, we need to redefine moneyhats. Moneyhats are often a reduction in licensing fees. This means that Nintendo wouldn't have to use operational cash and there is no real risk of hurting the company financially.


Offline NWR_Lindy

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Re: Nintendo Is A Mountain: NWR Staff Chats Wii U Third Party Support
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2013, 02:01:24 PM »
I question Nintendo as a console hardware manufacturer these days. They seem to only halfway-embrace console hardware improvements, and it's at the point where they need to decide if they want to be in the console space or not.  Not going head-to-head with Microsoft and Sony on the hardware front is really kicking them in the ass now.
What if they dropped consoles entirely and threw their weight behind a Nintendo Phone? They're much better at mobile development, and could seriously innovate in that space at a much lower cost.
 
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Offline ThePerm

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Re: Nintendo Is A Mountain: NWR Staff Chats Wii U Third Party Support
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2013, 03:50:25 PM »
@Lindy Well certainly next generation Nintendo will not have a console and a handheld. They will have a hybrid. They merged their hardware divisions I believe for this reason. 3 reasons this is possible. 1 handheld power is catching up to console power 2. Its going to be much easier to support one system than two. 3 They essentially already have the beginnings of a handheld console hybrid.

After 3ds's 5 years are up they should just release something called Gameboy. Its already been 10 years since GBA sp, and 8 years since GBA micro. In 2016-2017 mobile processing is going to be pretty crazy. They should definitely make it a phone too.
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Offline Leo13

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Re: Nintendo Is A Mountain: NWR Staff Chats Wii U Third Party Support
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2013, 04:10:34 PM »
So are you saying a Wii U GamePad with an HDMI output?
Most games can be played on the go (Off-TV play) while a few need the TV to function properly (Nintendo Land or Zombi U)?
Maybe this is part of the reason Nintendo is trying to steer us away from thinking graphics are everything. I would buy a large portable system with an HDMI output made my Nintendo.
Imagine how often we'd get new games developed by Nintendo (look at all the 3DS releases combined with the Wii U releases) plus imagine going on a trip with your Nintendo handheld console and you get to the Hotel and all of a sudden you plug in an HDMI cable and you have the full console in your hotel room!!! AWESOME!!!

Offline Oblivion

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Re: Nintendo Is A Mountain: NWR Staff Chats Wii U Third Party Support
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2013, 04:14:09 PM »
You don't even need an HDMI cable. Bring the power cord and the admittedly tiny console with you, and as long as you have access to a AC power, you can play on the Gamepad. I've started doing this for long car rides.

Offline PogueSquadron

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Re: Nintendo Is A Mountain: NWR Staff Chats Wii U Third Party Support
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2013, 04:17:55 PM »
I partly agree with you Jon, but at the same time I do like the variety Nintendo brings to the table (at least in regards to something like not making people pay for online play). Still, I have to agree...with the Gamepad not being as compelling, it makes all of Nintendo's flaws stand out like a sore thumb. Their control input is supposed to be what makes them stand out. The idea, I suppose, was that the different controls would be enough to offset the graphics technology. When the controller isn't pulling its weight, I just feel like I have a console that, by all other accounts, is inferior to the others.


The games will come out and sell well, but at the end of the day, Nintendo is going to be looking at a situation where their games sell well and no one else cares. If that's the endgame, then yeah, sometimes I wonder what the point of a Nintendo console even is.


It used to be the controller, but if that's the case, maybe they need to partner up with someone else who knows what they're doing in all other aspects of console manufacturing.

Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Nintendo Is A Mountain: NWR Staff Chats Wii U Third Party Support
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2013, 04:58:41 PM »
The console/handheld hybrid is the future for not just Nintendo but really the gaming industry in general.  But realistically such a product would replace the 3DS and Wii U so both systems need to have the same lifespan.  I can see Nintendo pulling the plug on the Wii U prematurely if it's losing money but dropping the 3DS too early would upset their existing userbase.  If the Wii U fails then Nintendo either has to take a hiatus from the console scene for a bit or pull the plug on a popular handheld to replace it early and I can't imagine Nintendo wanting to do either.  They have to at least put the sort of effort into the Wii U where it will make a profit (or at least break even) for the next four years.  Nobody wants a console where it looks like the manufacturer is not even trying.  Nintendo at least has to put on a show.

I remember on the Gamecube Nintendo started re-using very ho-hum Mario models in multiple games and they looked worse than SSB Melee which had come out first.  Having been used to Nintendo pushing their hardware to the limits on previous consoles this intentional restrainst caught me off guard.  But in retrospect that was a big hint of what their later consoles would be like.  I think Nintendo just hit the limit of where they wanted to go with the Gamecube hardware and they don't really want to go beyond that.  Even now that they have "HD hardware", the games they've have released thus far don't impress on a technical level.  The graphics don't stand out and the scope of the games seems small.  You look at the big sprawling world in the GTAV trailers for example and Nintendo seems completely disinterested in making something of similar ambition and size.  This doesn't apply to all of their devs (Retro pushes graphics; Monolith pushes scope) but it certainly applies to EAD.

I don't think Nintendo wanted to make the Wii U because they don't need better hardware than the Wii to make the games they want to make.  It's a product that the market was gradually forcing them to release because a videogame console that doesn't even support HD resolutions just doesn't fly anymore.  We've got a controller "innovation" effectively lifted from the DS and their big launch games were a mini-game comp and a 2D platformer - titles with no real ambition to them that aside from the Gamepad could have probably been done on the Gamecube with slightly inferior graphics.  Typically Nintendo would make a big splash with their new consoles to show off the new stuff they can now do.  But with the Wii U I have yet to see anything where it was clear that Nintendo's devs were just waiting with anticipation to finally have the hardware to achieve their idea.

The third party support, the first party lineup and the marketing have all been approached by Nintendo with an air of utter indifference.  I don't know if they've run out of ideas or if the higher-ups have just become old and conservative or if the company thinks that ambitious games will be too expensive to make.  But clearly they aren't excited to be working with the Wii U hardware and it is unrealistic to assume that any third party would be instead.

Offline LudicrousDa3ve

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Re: Nintendo Is A Mountain: NWR Staff Chats Wii U Third Party Support
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2013, 05:14:29 PM »
Carmine's closing bit is profound. Dude gets it, and summed up Nintendo better than I've ever read.


Offline Kytim89

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Re: Nintendo Is A Mountain: NWR Staff Chats Wii U Third Party Support
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2013, 05:24:34 PM »
With the high development costs being what they are Nintendo could easily money hat weaker game developers into putting their games (exclusively) onto the Wii U. It is just that Nintendo's conservative approach is no longer working for them. It is quite possible that the Wii U might become Nintendo's worst selling console of all time. As for relying solely on their first party arsenal, Nintendo had better make some amazing games if they want to fork over my hard money in this day and age, and judging from their line up thus far, noting intrigues me enough to support the Wii U except for two games: X and Bayonetta 2.
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Offline MagicCow64

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Re: Nintendo Is A Mountain: NWR Staff Chats Wii U Third Party Support
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2013, 05:29:18 PM »
I've said this before, but the big take-away from the WiiU might be the no-latency streaming tech rather than the touchpad.

Imagine if you had the whole console inside a Gamepad-sized handheld, that came with a an HDMI dongle that you could plug into any TV or monitor and would stream wirelessly.

Offline Enner

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Re: Nintendo Is A Mountain: NWR Staff Chats Wii U Third Party Support
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2013, 05:32:38 PM »
I can't think of any detailed comment on the excellent editorial, but...

Quote from: Carmine
The moral of the story? That clan may never control all of Japan, and Nintendo may never truly win the console war. But they’ll survive, and they’ll survive by doing what they do best and by avoiding over-extending themselves. That’s the mindset Nintendo has. That’s why they’ve never conclusively solved the third-party problem. And that’s why Iwata’s third-party plan seems unexciting and unambitious. Nintendo is a mountain, and the mountain does not move. It simply endures.
This is why it’s so hard to be a Nintendo fan. You going into this thinking you’ve picked a winner. But the simple fact is that Nintendo’s not a winner. Nintendo’s a survivor.

... that is such a beautiful description of Nintendo that I never heard before; it encapsulates what I love and hate about them. Reading it and the entire article was great.

Offline smallsharkbigbite

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Re: Nintendo Is A Mountain: NWR Staff Chats Wii U Third Party Support
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2013, 06:39:55 PM »
@Lindy Well certainly next generation Nintendo will not have a console and a handheld. They will have a hybrid. They merged their hardware divisions I believe for this reason. 3 reasons this is possible. 1 handheld power is catching up to console power 2. Its going to be much easier to support one system than two. 3 They essentially already have the beginnings of a handheld console hybrid.


I know I'm in the minority, but I don't see this happening.  Nintendo wouldn't want to ruin their cash cow in the 3ds and Sony/Microsoft wouldn't want to compete with Nintendo on a hybrid system.


They really would push their Wii U issues down to the 3DS by making all games cost $20-30 million instead of the <$10 million on 3DS they get now.  While technically, they could build a Wii U powered 3DS, it would not come cheap.  The 3DS is in the sweet spot now.  The portable market wouldn't support a $400+ gaming system with $60 games.  That would push anyone wanting something portable to a tablet.  Also, Nintendo would still have to work to get the big third parties to support the system.  The 3DS has decent third party support, but it's more niche than what PS3/Xbox 360 have.  They'd still have to work to get GTA, Mass Effect, etc. 


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[/size]Having been used to Nintendo pushing their hardware to the limits on previous consoles this intentional restrainst caught me off guard.  But in retrospect that was a big hint of what their later consoles would be like.  I think Nintendo just hit the limit of where they wanted to go with the Gamecube hardware and they don't really want to go beyond that.



I think you are misrepresenting what Nintendo was trying to do.  They had a console that wasn't making money.  This meant they had to subsidize the console with software earnings.  It also meant that third party support was worse than the last generation so they had to make more 1st party titles to fill schedules.  The Gamecube Era was like the N64 era on steroids.  Less money, more games means lower quality games. 

It's the same thing with the FE needs to sell 700,000 thread.  Yeah, it would be awesome if Nintendo could spend 30 million on every game and sell at least 700,000 units to make it worthwhile.  But if trends continue they'll need to find ways to cut corners and make games profitable for 250,000 units sold.  I don't necessarily think that is a bad thing.  I wish they would either develop a studio or purchase a studio and have them focus on creating an eshop game every 6 months.  Not every game can be a big production game. 


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[/size]Wait, I can't edit typos anymore?  What the hell?  Disregard my big quote of myself.

[/size]
[/size]It's really annoying when you are trying to type on a touch phone and it requires a great amount of effort to both type accurately and see in entirety what you wrote. 






Offline UncleBob

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Re: Nintendo Is A Mountain: NWR Staff Chats Wii U Third Party Support
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2013, 07:17:10 PM »
But if the console sells well they won't have to.  Third parties will want to release games on the Wii U.
Umm... did you completely forget about the entire Wii generation, where Nintendo sold a metric **** ton of consoles and third parties still avoided them?
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Moneyhats are only necessary when you have no leverage.  Once you've got the sales, you've got the leverage and can play hardball with third parties.  Any third party that got a moneyhat may try to ask for another one later but if the Wii U is selling well are they really going to just ditch the Wii U and piss away all those potential sales?
Ask Microsoft and Sony.  They continue to throw money hats around, to the same groups, for exclusive games, features and content.  With no end in sight.

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Offline broodwars

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Re: Nintendo Is A Mountain: NWR Staff Chats Wii U Third Party Support
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2013, 07:36:33 PM »
Well, all I have to say on Carmine's position is that if that's the position you want to take up, that Nintendo doesn't need 3rd parties and their "me first" mentality is the core of what they are, that's fine.  That's your opinion.  However, I think you then forfeit any right to complain about the Wii U being ignored in the general gaming media and Nintendo generally being thought an irrelevant dinosaur that should go 3rd party.
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Offline broodwars

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Re: Nintendo Is A Mountain: NWR Staff Chats Wii U Third Party Support
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2013, 07:38:21 PM »
For that matter, you also forfeit the right to complain when 3rd parties announce that all their major titles are going to every major gaming console and mobile platform except the Wii U, because Nintendo's delusional mindset benefits no one but themselves.
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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Nintendo Is A Mountain: NWR Staff Chats Wii U Third Party Support
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2013, 08:07:17 PM »
If Nintendo is going to be the mountain that just survives, how do they sell enough people on that to bank them?  They can't literally live off the land of the mountain.  The whole thing relies on people buying their product and they have to convince those people that it's a product worth buying.  Weak third party support diminishes the value of the console as a product.  Because really third party support is all about having a good selection of games and if you have no games your console sucks.

A big reason why I don't own a Wii U and got really fed up with the Wii was because in the past I had hope that Nintendo would do better.  My enthusiasm died when I realized that not only were things not going to get better but that Nintendo was incapable and/or unwilling to try.  I'm not a Nintendo investor.  I don't benefit from them being this isolated mountain.  I benefit from a console having as many of the best games out there that it can.  Only the most irrationally loyal Nintendo fanboys will cling to a hopeless Nintendo.  For everyone else it is merely a matter of time before they get fed up and realize that the problems will never be addressed.  Because it relies on outside purchases this is a model doomed to fail at some point.

And the Wii U ain't selling and Nintendo posted losses in the previous two years.  The model is failing right now because no one wants a glorified last gen console with unambitious games and no third party support.  A console with weak third party support is a shitty product and Nintendo can only sell a shitty product for so long before everyone catches on.  The only reason things were so peachy for them last gen was that they found a new audience that didn't know better.  The Wii U is selling like how I figure the Wii would have sold if it had to sell only to the traditional videogame audience.

It isn't even like a sports team where you want Nintendo to win because they're your "team".  It's as simple as a console not trying to "win" providing an inferior experience to its userbase.

Offline UncleBob

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Re: Nintendo Is A Mountain: NWR Staff Chats Wii U Third Party Support
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2013, 08:20:01 PM »
However, I think you then forfeit any right to complain about the Wii U being ignored in the general gaming media and Nintendo generally being thought an irrelevant dinosaur that should go 3rd party.

I don't complain about it, I just laugh at how out of touch the gaming media is. :D
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Offline broodwars

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Re: Nintendo Is A Mountain: NWR Staff Chats Wii U Third Party Support
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2013, 08:21:31 PM »
However, I think you then forfeit any right to complain about the Wii U being ignored in the general gaming media and Nintendo generally being thought an irrelevant dinosaur that should go 3rd party.

I don't complain about it, I just laugh at how out of touch the gaming media is. :D

And they, in turn, laugh at how out of touch both you and Nintendo are. It's quite the symbiotic relationship.  :P:
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Offline UncleBob

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Re: Nintendo Is A Mountain: NWR Staff Chats Wii U Third Party Support
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2013, 08:24:29 PM »
Let them laugh while they continue to scrape by selling Doritos and Mountain Dew.

I'll be sitting here, playing my Nintendo games, having fun.

Hey, remind me again about all the independent video game magazines that have been going strong for years.  Oh, and that awesome video game television network... how's it getting along?  Then there's the internet video game sites... which one of them isn't incompetent this week?
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Offline Kytim89

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Re: Nintendo Is A Mountain: NWR Staff Chats Wii U Third Party Support
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2013, 09:22:19 PM »
The bottom line is that Nintendo is going to have to work for a living to make the Wii U successful. They need a price cut by the end of November of this year. The same old routine that has gotten Nintendo by in the past will not cut this time around. Yes, Nintendo is going to have bribe certain developers, but they are too stupid to realize this and implement it. Grand Theft Auto V would have been a good money hat for Nintendo to bring over to the Wii U. 
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Offline UncleBob

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Re: Nintendo Is A Mountain: NWR Staff Chats Wii U Third Party Support
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2013, 09:42:17 PM »
Nintendo has always worked to make their systems successful.  Even in the glory days of the NES and SNES, they fought hard, tooth and nail, against third parties, stores, government agencies...  In spite of the revisionist history some may believe, Nintendo has never had a cake walk selling their stuff.
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Offline Kytim89

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Re: Nintendo Is A Mountain: NWR Staff Chats Wii U Third Party Support
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2013, 10:25:42 PM »
Nintendo has always worked to make their systems successful.  Even in the glory days of the NES and SNES, they fought hard, tooth and nail, against third parties, stores, government agencies...  In spite of the revisionist history some may believe, Nintendo has never had a cake walk selling their stuff.


Why is it so hard for Nintendo to try and strengthen ties with third parties rather than let the status quo go on?
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Offline Shaymin

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Re: Nintendo Is A Mountain: NWR Staff Chats Wii U Third Party Support
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2013, 10:34:37 PM »
Because the status quo isn't working and neither side seems all that interested in changing it.
Donald Theriault - News Editor, Nintendo World Report / 2016 Nintendo World Champion
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