Author Topic: Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight  (Read 38148 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline NWR_pap64

  • You are not the boss of me
  • Score: 25
    • View Profile
    • Nintendo World Report
RE:Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2007, 02:50:49 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
I'm not pulling your leg, but the site does go down frequently.

The site is where most of the SSB tourney crowd exists, hence why there's probably a LOT of crying over there right now about the lack of advanced techs in Brawl.


Ah I see. I was dubious as I searched both smashbros.com and smashboards and nothing came up. I simply wanted to see for myself if Dirk's comments were true.

I told you people would throw a fit if Brawl turned out to be very different from Melee.
Pedro Hernandez
NWR Staff Writer

Offline Dirk Temporo

  • Score: -1
    • View Profile
"You've had your dream old man. It's time to wake up!"
-Travis Touchdown

Offline Mashiro

  • Silent Protagonist
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
RE: Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2007, 03:54:47 PM »
What's wave landing and l-canceling?

Offline GoldenPhoenix

  • Now it's a party!
  • Score: 42
    • View Profile
RE:Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #28 on: October 18, 2007, 04:02:21 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Mashiro
What's wave landing and l-canceling?


That is what i want to know.  
Switch Friend Code: SW-4185-3173-1144

Offline Jdub03

  • Bert Stanton speaking.
  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE: Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2007, 04:06:07 PM »
     Wave landing is wave dashing right as you hit the ground.  Wave dashing is just canceling a jump with an aerial dodge diagonally downwards.  It makes you slide forward across the ground.  L canceling is lag canceling.  Hitting the shield button right before you land from an aerial attack reduces the animation frames so you can attack quicker.  

    Although I use all these techniques I'm not disappointed at all.  Since I didn't go to any tournies they weren't serious parts of my smash game.  I still cant wait for brawl.

    One thing I'm confused about is why all these people are so much against it.  It doesn't give the user an unfair advantage.  Those who are good and use it would whoop your arse anyway.  It'll be the same for brawl(Although i can wave dash and all that crap it doesn't help me win because I'm really just an average player).    
How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg. - Abraham Lincoln

Offline GoldenPhoenix

  • Now it's a party!
  • Score: 42
    • View Profile
RE:Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2007, 04:08:12 PM »
I really don't like these cheap moves that abuse the system, and are more related to design flaws, such as snaking in Mario Kart DS.  
Switch Friend Code: SW-4185-3173-1144

Offline Bill Aurion

  • NWR Forum Loli
  • Score: 34
    • View Profile
RE: Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2007, 04:09:15 PM »
I like it when the Smashboard collective cries...It makes me feel all fuzzy inside!
~Former Resident Zelda Aficionado and Nintendo Fan~

Offline GoldenPhoenix

  • Now it's a party!
  • Score: 42
    • View Profile
RE:Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2007, 04:10:31 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
I like it when the Smashboard collective cries...It makes me feel all fuzzy inside!


Well it is always funny to watch fanbois of all types cry, ESPECIALLY people who tend to be more "elitist" than most, the tourney crowd.  
Switch Friend Code: SW-4185-3173-1144

Offline that Baby guy

  • He's a real Ei-Ei-Poo!
  • Score: 379
    • View Profile
RE:Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2007, 04:13:30 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Jdub03
Wave landing is wave dashing right as you hit the ground.  Wave dashing is just canceling a jump with an aerial dodge diagonally downwards.  It makes you slide forward across the ground.  L canceling is lag canceling.  Hitting the shield button right before you land from an aerial attack reduces the animation frames so you can attack quicker.  

    Although I use all these techniques I'm not disappointed at all.  Since I didn't go to any tournies they weren't serious parts of my smash game.  I still cant wait for brawl.

    One thing I'm confused about is why all these people are so much against it.  It doesn't give the user an unfair advantage.  Those who are good and use it would whoop your arse anyway.  It'll be the same for brawl(Although i can wave dash and all that crap it doesn't help me win because I'm really just an average player).


As far as L-cancelling goes, why even include it in the game?  There's no reason to, since it can be done with every aerial attack.  That's solely a technique added to create a gap between skill levels.  The other two have to do with mistakes in physics, and I think L-canceling probably does, too.  They weren't intended by Sakurai and the developers.

Offline Smash_Brother

  • Let me show you my poké-balls
  • Score: 3
    • View Profile
RE: Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2007, 05:20:19 PM »
From the SSB thread:

"Just to inform you, the game feels very different from Melee. Alot of characters in the game play differently, even characters such as Fox have modifications to their playing style. Alot of the control preferance was more towards the singe Wii remote rather than the Classic Controler (Even though the CC was infinitly better). I personally has a smoother transition to Melee than most players. Most of us are on a high level of technicality in the game.

Just to get quick to the engine details... Yes, wavedashing is gone, as the Air Dodge is influnced by your momentum. One good thing is that you are able to attack/ jump after and Air Dodge, which I personally enjoyed. L canceling didn't seem to be within the demo either, but it seemed unecessary for most moves, as the lag reduction/hit stun on the moves allowed you to do some chains, even though some moves had alot of lag. Now, the most shocking thing to me...DI. The DI is insane beyond reasoning. I was able to Smash DI out of several combos and live at percentages up to 200%

There are so many things that I can say about the engine change, but the one thing I can say that was dramatic was the floaty engine. Even characters such as Fox were able to maintain aerial attacking fluently, yet, he still had the same Fast Faller Feel. You may think that you can pull an easy Air Combo, but there is more to it than one might think."


So you know, "DI"ing means pushing a direction when you're hit so you fly in that direction and it sounds like it has been increased dramatically...
"OK, first we need someone to complain about something trivial. Golden or S_B should do. Then we get someone to defend the game, like Bill or Mashiro. Finally add some Unclebob or Pro666 randomness and the thread should go to hell right away." -Pap64

Offline Jdub03

  • Bert Stanton speaking.
  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE: Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2007, 05:21:30 PM »
yeah I know.  I See why he excluded all of these glitch tactics.  He wants everyone to be on an even playing field. I just don't see it happening.  Tourny players will just find something else.  Even without new techniques there still leagues ahead of the regular players.  They play for money of course there gonna be better.   I'm excited to figure out knew strategies and techniques in this game.   It really didn't bother me whether he kept them in or not.  I finally get to play another smash bros.  February seems so far now.
How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg. - Abraham Lincoln

Offline NWR_pap64

  • You are not the boss of me
  • Score: 25
    • View Profile
    • Nintendo World Report
RE:Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2007, 05:25:39 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
From the SSB thread:

"Just to inform you, the game feels very different from Melee. Alot of characters in the game play differently, even characters such as Fox have modifications to their playing style. Alot of the control preferance was more towards the singe Wii remote rather than the Classic Controler (Even though the CC was infinitly better). I personally has a smoother transition to Melee than most players. Most of us are on a high level of technicality in the game.

Just to get quick to the engine details... Yes, wavedashing is gone, as the Air Dodge is influnced by your momentum. One good thing is that you are able to attack/ jump after and Air Dodge, which I personally enjoyed. L canceling didn't seem to be within the demo either, but it seemed unecessary for most moves, as the lag reduction/hit stun on the moves allowed you to do some chains, even though some moves had alot of lag. Now, the most shocking thing to me...DI. The DI is insane beyond reasoning. I was able to Smash DI out of several combos and live at percentages up to 200%

There are so many things that I can say about the engine change, but the one thing I can say that was dramatic was the floaty engine. Even characters such as Fox were able to maintain aerial attacking fluently, yet, he still had the same Fast Faller Feel. You may think that you can pull an easy Air Combo, but there is more to it than one might think."


So you know, "DI"ing means pushing a direction when you're hit so you fly in that direction and it sounds like it has been increased dramatically...


Maybe that was added to further enhance aerial combat?
Pedro Hernandez
NWR Staff Writer

Offline GoldenPhoenix

  • Now it's a party!
  • Score: 42
    • View Profile
RE:Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2007, 05:54:42 PM »
Why can't tourney players play the game how it was designed to play? Why must they exploit the flaws?
Switch Friend Code: SW-4185-3173-1144

Offline Mashiro

  • Silent Protagonist
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
RE: Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2007, 06:09:18 PM »
Oh thank goodness that's removed then.

I honestly hate all the "counting frames" crap. I feel like I need a sharingan to see what's happening lol.

Offline anubis6789

  • famous purple stuffed worm in flap-jaw space
  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE:Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2007, 06:11:33 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I really don't like these cheap moves that abuse the system, and are more related to design flaws, such as snaking in Mario Kart DS.


Snaking is an abuse, along the lines of power-leveling, I will give you that, but it is clearly not a design flaw considering that each subsequent game it gets easier and easier to do. If it was a design flaw it would have been taken out after Double Dash, which had more prevalent snaking then 64, but it was not, which to me says that the developers think it is a part of the game. Obviously I snake, and if the ability to snake is in Mario Kart Wii, I will  continue to use it, but if it is taken out or fixed to make it unviable then I will stop using it and probably go on to find other techniques, if possible. I certainly will not cry about snaking if it is removed or nerfed.

Just for a historical precedent consider two-in-ones, the act of canceling a basic attack into a special move, in Street Fighter II. This unintended "feature" of the fighting engine is largely what makes combos possible, and viable, and with the subsequent version, Dash/Championship Edition, it was solidified as a regular, intended, feature and became a mainstay within the main engine of almost all two-dimensional fighters afterwards.

Now take Capcom Vs. SNK 2, which had an unintended "feature" called roll canceling, which is basically the act of canceling an invincible roll maneuver into a offensive move which will maintain the invincibility of the roll including special moves and super moves. This technique was in the Arcade, Dreamcast, and PS2 versions of the game, yet was taken out for both the later released GCN and Xbox versions, which to me says that it was an unintended and unwelcome (by the design team, anyway) addition to the gameplay, and it was fixed accordingly.

So if snaking was not part of the game it would have been nerfed or removed already, unless the design teams do not know that it exists which I doubt heavily.

As far as Brawl is concerned though, if the development team decided that techniques such as wavedashing should not be in the game, and you do not like it, well play a different game or (re)learn this one,those are your only choices.

Fox and Peach being nerfed and Bowser being buffed interests me because I am wondering in what context this has been figured out. Are we talking about duels or four player battles, and are we talking about using items or just letting them sit there (because it does not sound like you can turn it off in the demo), because I think that the characters are balanced based on the game as a whole, meaning they take into account items, stages, and four player battles (this can somewhat be proved by the fact that not all the characters use items the same way). That is one of the reasons I think there is such big discrepancies with the tiers in Melee; if the developers took those things into account and you remove any of those features then you are unbalancing the game and if you exclude more than one feature then you would be unbalancing the game even more.

Which brings me to my final point in this "way-too-long" post; the so called "advanced techniques" used by the "hardcore" Smash player are really no more then intermediate techniques, seeing as how they are not really all that useful (with the exception of L-canceling) within matches that contain more than one other fighter with items on a moving stage with a divide down the middle. All the real advanced techniques are hidden behind the feature-ban wall of the Smash Bros. tournament rules. Thanks to those rules we really do not know anything about the Smash Bros. fighting engine; there may be techniques for dealing with all the "problems" of matches that take place outside of the non-banned stages, no item duels, and there may be special tricks and attributes with items that we will never know because the "hardcore" and semi-hardcore never use them because it conflics with their bizarre ideal of fairness.

That is one of the major reasons that I do not like the current tournament rules, but it is not like I am really ever going to play in a Smash Bros. tourney anyway so why should I care?  
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not; a sense of humor to console him for what he is." - Francis Bacon

Offline Mashiro

  • Silent Protagonist
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
RE: Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2007, 06:23:20 PM »
Torni players, no matter WHAT game series it is will do the following:

THEY WILL ALWAYS COMPLAIN ABOUT CHANGES TO ANY OF THE GAMEPLAY

It's just how it works. Look at the takken or soul calibur boards when a new version comes out, it's crazy lol.

You have to take what they say with a grain of salt. In the end they always adjust.

Offline GoldenPhoenix

  • Now it's a party!
  • Score: 42
    • View Profile
RE:Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #41 on: October 18, 2007, 06:26:07 PM »
I just hope Bowser is awesome, that is all I care about.  
Switch Friend Code: SW-4185-3173-1144

Offline Arbok

  • Toho Mikado
  • Score: 5
    • View Profile
    • Toho Kingdom
RE:Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #42 on: October 18, 2007, 10:24:25 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I just hope Bowser is awesome, that is all I care about.


He sounds like he's awesome now, from his new "born from fire" intro to the fact that he can't be stunned out of starting his "Down + B" move, there looks to be a lot of promise for him. Hell, a tourney person had a lot of positive things to say about him, so at the very least he's "middle tier", if you follow that type of stuff.... although, on that note, it's pissing me off to hear them trying to already place the characters into tiers after a single day of play (Mario - Top Tier, Pit - High Tier, Fox - Middle Tier, etc.). Ludicrous. Why the hell are they even trying crap like that on the first day of a DEMO?
Toho Kingdom

@romero_tk

Offline Mashiro

  • Silent Protagonist
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
RE: Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #43 on: October 18, 2007, 10:31:40 PM »
Lol how can they place characters in tiers . . . when they don't even know how how the other characters play.

That's silly.

Offline Bill Aurion

  • NWR Forum Loli
  • Score: 34
    • View Profile
RE: Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2007, 01:34:50 AM »
People who bring up "tiers" don't play the game for fun anyway, so why even bother trying to save them?
~Former Resident Zelda Aficionado and Nintendo Fan~

Offline Spak-Spang

  • The Frightened Fox
  • Score: 39
    • View Profile
    • MirandaNew.com
RE: Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #45 on: October 19, 2007, 02:10:48 AM »
GoldenPheonix:  tourny people do this because having any advantage whatsoever is more important than playing the game as it was intended.  I don't think it is theating, it is just exploiting the program...kinda like the Matrix movies, you can't break the rules of the program just bend them.

With snaking it becomes a frustrating addition to the game that changes the design and feel of the game...to compete you have to race unnaturally...and I think it is a flaw in the game.  The balance should have been designed to keep that exploit from occurring.  

With fighting games the tourny players always count frames, and figure out exactly how to get that extra split second advantage over you.  In Street Fighter people figures out if you hold down and do an attack you can just do Diagonal forward, Forward for a fireball...hence making combos easier.  In away that was an exploit, but without that being discovered the combo systems of most fighting games would not be the same or as complex.  

Personally, I am excited that these items are taken out of Brawl, because it means more people can be on competitive levels without mastering exploit moves...which in a fighter like this is more important than the exploit moves...which I think is pretty important in like Street Fighter games.  

I hope Sakurai is watching and reading impressions from the public's first play test of Brawl and will come away with ideas how to better balance the game.  As it stands it sounds like Meta Knight is just way too powerful.


Offline Nick DiMola

  • Staff Alumnus
  • Score: 20
    • View Profile
    • PixlBit
RE: Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #46 on: October 19, 2007, 03:06:41 AM »
Wow that's awesome that they removed Wavedashing. The technique was really cheap during fights and I'm glad to see that they fixed that part of the game. In order to get to the next level in Melee you had to start Wavedashing and it removed all fun in the game. Now that this technique is gone it should help level the playing field and make the game more enjoyable for all.
Check out PixlBit!

Offline Jdub03

  • Bert Stanton speaking.
  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE: Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #47 on: October 19, 2007, 03:10:33 AM »
Check smash boards.  They're already figuring out new techniques.  Particularly one called ink dropping.  Seems to be a wave dash substitute.  Taking out wave dashing and all that other stuff wont give casual players an even field.  Withouts those things they'd still get killed.
How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg. - Abraham Lincoln

Offline Bill Aurion

  • NWR Forum Loli
  • Score: 34
    • View Profile
RE: Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #48 on: October 19, 2007, 03:23:00 AM »
I don't like that argument...If you take two people of equal skill, and give one of them the ability to have a split-second advantage, the playing field is no longer fair...

It's like the idea of snaking in Mario Kart...If you take two players of equal skill, the one who snakes will ALWAYS win...ALWAYS...
~Former Resident Zelda Aficionado and Nintendo Fan~

Offline Jdub03

  • Bert Stanton speaking.
  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE: Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #49 on: October 19, 2007, 03:36:39 AM »
     Your right to some degree.  The problem with your statement is that tourney players and casuals aren't on the same level.  They not only learn advanced techniques but also they master parts of the game that aren't necessarily glitches(the basics).  You assume everyone is on the same level.  Just because the game is, on the surface simple does not automatically put you and me on the same playing field.  I might be better at air comboing you evading etc.  The reason all these glitches and techniques are found out is because dedicated players take the time to learn every little nuance about the game.

Its really confusing to me why these things would even be a problem since there is no stat tracking or any ranking system set in place.  If you don't want to play with someone you could just quit out with no penalties whatsoever.  Anyways I'm not a tourney goer so really it doesn't matter whats in or not.  Ill be picking up a wii and smash bros as soon as it comes out.  It wont be too long before the hard core community finds other things that you might not like.  You might as well do you mental preparations now.



 
How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg. - Abraham Lincoln