Topic: The Console Wars: Game On - Article in TIME Magazine

[mouse_clicker]

Exactly, Darc- Microsoft constantly touts how powerful it's console is when the most technically advanced game by fae this generation has been on the Gamecube, not the XBox.

And KDR, regardless of triangles or whatever, Rogue Leader was a launch title made in less than a year, and the only XBox game to match it graphically was released 4 months later. So as of now only one XBox game has matched Rogue Leader and none have surpassed it, while on the Gamecube one game already has surpassed it, soon to be two (I'll be damned if Resident Evil 4, arguably the best looking console game to date, isn't more advanced than RL).

[KDR_11k]

DR, MC: The point that I was trying to disprove was that 15MT/s at 60FPS is better than 15MT/s at 30FPS since MT/s just determine how high the FPS will be at a given number of triangles.

I think I'll use math:
15 *10^6 Triangle Sec^-1 / 30 Frame Sec^-1 == 15 * 10^6 Triangle / 30 Frame == 5 * 10^5 Triangle * Frame^-1
15 *10^6 Triangle Sec^-1 / 60 Frame Sec^-1 == 15 * 10^6 Triangle / 60 Frame == 2.5 * 10^5 Triangle * Frame^-1
There. Feel free to disprove that.

[codyy]

You know, i've said this before, and I'll say it again:I think Nintendo knows what they are doing. They have made some mistakes in the past, such as shunning technology and using cartridges. But, you have to admit, weren't there some awesome games for the N64? I mean, The Legend of Zelda? Super Smash Brothers? Goldeneye? So it is no use blaming Nintendo for that. It is ashame that Nintendo gets shafted a lot, and anyone who has played a Nintendo game KNOWS that a synonym for Nintendo is Quality. Reports like this are a dime a dozen, and like most of our news, it focuses on the BAD things that happen. It is a pity that our generation is attracted to a console for one game. PS2=GTA? Now, not to discredit Sony or anyone who likes it, cause god bless there are a few of you who like PS2 for other reasons (excellent RPGs, most notably), but it is the #1 selling point for the PS2. The fact of the matter is Nintendo is trying to make quality video games that everyone can enjoy, not those 18 & older. I believe that Nintendo will spring back, and if they don't, well, at least they'll make some hell of 3rd party games, and they'll get the respect they deserve.

Amen KDR_11k:

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius, and a lot of courage, to move in the opposite direction." --Albert Einstein

Sound familar?

[mouse_clicker]

I'm not saying KDR is wrong, cody, but that quote most definitely does not apply to him.

KDR: It doesn't matter if the triangles magically have 8 sides, I've already explained to why I brought up Rallisport Challenge at all.

[RyanL]

Quote
Originally posted by: teckmoney

...but nvidia is also incorporating 3dfx technology.

Just what we need.  A game console that has 16 graphics chips operating in parallel and draws 400 watts of power.  It'll be the anti-Gamecube.

Seriously, what impresses me most about the Gamecube is the amount of power they managed to pack into such a small package.  Insanely good job by Nintendo's engineers.

-Ryan

[Don'tHate742]

This message is not only for this topic but in general...

I don't understand why you guys argue with each other for such an insignificant topic. Who cares if Nintendo is "inferior" to the Xbox. Why do you feel compelled to fight for a company in some stupid argument that's probably been brought up over the globe a million times. As long as you get to play great innovative games why the hell do you care about if a company's hardware doesn't sell well. Do you feel warm inside for having the Nintendo brand symbol by yourside, or do you prefer the manlyness of the Xbox instead. Is it becuase you've had a Nintendo since you were 2 and are OldSkool to stick with it. You guys need to stop saying your "open-minded" and really step back and see why people buy "fad" games. Maybe they want to play as the Terminator in Terminator 3, and what if they don't like the innovative new zelda.....are they automatically shunned as "stupid casual gamers." Am I the only one who understands that even if Nintendo stops making hardware, we'll still get the great games we always wanted. Or even if Nintendo stops making games, the people within the company well dispurse into other gaming companies....making the better probably. So why the hell are there fanboys, it makes no sense to me. Enjoy games period.

PS: I'm not hating, I just want you guys to realize how meaningless some of this stuff is.

[mouse_clicker]

Why must everyone think they're crusading for what's right whenever anyone else so much as mentions technical ability? Obviously what matter is the quality of the gaming, and that's why I'm a Nintendo fan- I wouldn't care if the Gamecube was as powerful as the NES, as long as the games were there I'd be happy. I was just pointing out that it seems everybody has been brainwashed the automatically think the Xbox is the most powerful console, when that hasn't even been proven in an actual game yet.  

[Darc Requiem]

Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
DR, MC: The point that I was trying to disprove was that 15MT/s at 60FPS is better than 15MT/s at 30FPS since MT/s just determine how high the FPS will be at a given number of triangles.

I think I'll use math:
15 *10^6 Triangle Sec^-1 / 30 Frame Sec^-1 == 15 * 10^6 Triangle / 30 Frame == 5 * 10^5 Triangle * Frame^-1
15 *10^6 Triangle Sec^-1 / 60 Frame Sec^-1 == 15 * 10^6 Triangle / 60 Frame == 2.5 * 10^5 Triangle * Frame^-1
There. Feel free to disprove that.

I'm disputing what you are saying KDR. I'm just saying that Mouse's point was that X-box should be capable of much more given its cost and the constant BS Microsoft spouts off about its power. A more current example of X-box versus GC that I find interesting is Prince of Persia Sands of Time. The GC version looks the best. The X-box version does have the highest polygon count on the player models but the GC version has better textures and effects. Given what MS states. The X-box version of PoP should complete destroy its PS2 and GC counterparts.

I have yet to see any X-box game that surpasses Wave Race Blue Storms water effects. I could go on. The Gamecube is a Corvette Z06 and the X-box is a Dodge Viper. The Viper has 500hp to the Vettes 405hp. The Viper beats the Vette to 60 by 0.3 seconds and in the quarter by 0.2 seconds. Now you take the both cars out to the racetrack and the Vette beats it everytime. My point the X-box does have the the most powerful GPU, but the GC gets the most power out of its GPU.

Darc Requiem

[Oldskool]

This thread just went beyond my tech vocab...

[Ian Sane]

"As long as you get to play great innovative games why the hell do you care about if a company's hardware doesn't sell well."

Anybody who has owned an NES or SNES has an answer to this question.  When a console sells better it gets MORE GAMES.  Therefore you want your favourite console to sell the best so it gets the most games and thus you get the most bang for your buck.  The NES and SNES were the ultimate consoles for a Nintendo fan because they had both Nintendo first party titles and tons of exclusive third party games.  You can't get that type of situation if the Gamecube isn't selling well.  To some it might be a pride thing but for me it's about getting a wider variety of games.

[KDR_11k]

One difference is: The Rogue Squadron games were developed using low-level hardware hacks while RsC probably uses DirectX. Using an API is always less efficient than directly coding to the hardware, but is also less bugprone, more easily portable and much faster to write. I think we haven't seen a lowlevel XB game and we will definitely not see one until Carmack becomes console exclusive, which will never happen. I doubt any developer except for Factor 5 would put enough effort into a game to make a low-level one. Hell, they don't seem to do that with PS2, why should they do with other consoles?

[jaz013]

Quote
Originally posted by: Don'tHate742
This message is not only for this topic but in general...

I don't understand why you guys argue with each other for such an insignificant topic. Who cares if Nintendo is "inferior" to the Xbox. Why do you feel compelled to fight for a company in some stupid argument that's probably been brought up over the globe a million times. As long as you get to play great innovative games why the hell do you care about if a company's hardware doesn't sell well. Do you feel warm inside for having the Nintendo brand symbol by yourside, or do you prefer the manlyness of the Xbox instead. Is it becuase you've had a Nintendo since you were 2 and are OldSkool to stick with it. You guys need to stop saying your "open-minded" and really step back and see why people buy "fad" games. Maybe they want to play as the Terminator in Terminator 3, and what if they don't like the innovative new zelda.....are they automatically shunned as "stupid casual gamers." Am I the only one who understands that even if Nintendo stops making hardware, we'll still get the great games we always wanted. Or even if Nintendo stops making games, the people within the company well dispurse into other gaming companies....making the better probably. So why the hell are there fanboys, it makes no sense to me. Enjoy games period.

PS: I'm not hating, I just want you guys to realize how meaningless some of this stuff is.

Amen to that, I used to be one of those fanboys, until some day I find myself arguing how
much better was the N64 over the PS one due to Zelda, with a guy that changes systems like underwear. Since then, I decided to get the system with the games I wanna play (in this case GC because of Metroid, F-Zero and Zelda) and PLAY. The guy I was arguing with?, well he has a PS2 "because the 'cube has those little discs and the Powerpuff Zelda". He brouhgt his PS2 almost 3 years ago (before the cube even had a name), but he insists in the reason above, and when we see a GC game, he always find something "awful" (what almost made laught was when he said F-Zero GX was a crappy game "because the music sucks"), and just the last week, he keep saying that I-Ninja rocks, and we I say "Well, I suppose, maybe I'll get it too", he change his oppinion. This kind of fanboys is what generates this kind of arguing, useless by the way.

[WesDawg]

I do have a warm fuzzy feeling for Nintendo, and it makes me sad to see 'em getting musceled out of the market they created by big companies who want their take on Ninty's profits now. Same as it made me sad when the local grocery store got shut down because of Wal-Mart. I still get the same products, at cheaper prices even, but that doesn't mean its a good thing it happened, or that I like it. Does that makes sence? I know comparing Nintendo to a ma and pop grocery store is a bit extreme, but its not to far off right now.

[the_zombie_luke]

It makes perfect sense. Microsoft and Sony have much more money than Nintendo, and Nintendo has never had stronger rivals. I think Nintendo will eventually beat them.  

[Smashman]

I actually think GCN and SNES are the ultimate Nintendo systems, as alot of NES' games were just unplayable they were so crappy (IMHO). GCN is getting a good amount of third party titles (especially my favorite genre- RPG) while the first-party magic of Nintendo.

Just my 1.9 cents. You got a cent to spare.

[Shadow Fox]

Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
DR, MC: The point that I was trying to disprove was that 15MT/s at 60FPS is better than 15MT/s at 30FPS since MT/s just determine how high the FPS will be at a given number of triangles.

I think I'll use math:
15 *10^6 Triangle Sec^-1 / 30 Frame Sec^-1 == 15 * 10^6 Triangle / 30 Frame == 5 * 10^5 Triangle * Frame^-1
15 *10^6 Triangle Sec^-1 / 60 Frame Sec^-1 == 15 * 10^6 Triangle / 60 Frame == 2.5 * 10^5 Triangle * Frame^-1
There. Feel free to disprove that.

Know this, KDR- a higher framerate (regardless of how many per frame) is always more taxing to the CPU/GPU combo than more polys at a slower one.

Think for once- the PS2 can do 66 million polys/sec- at ONE FRAME PER SECOND.  Put it at 30 and you'll nosedive to 19.8 assuming no other calcuations (physics, AI, etc) are computed at the same time.

So it's not the point of what's done in the same frame, it's the fact that Factor 5 could've turned the 15mps at 60fps into 30mps at 30fps instead.  To bring RSC to 60fps, it would have to draw twice as many polys per second.  

Plus, Factor 5 wouldn't be able to use ALL effects that Rallisport lacks (motion blurs only capable at 60fps, radiosity/environment bumpmapping, self-shadowing on every object, 8 simultaneous texture layers, 8 hardware lights).  Xbox is only capable of displaying 4 texture layers per pass for these effects, and any more added would slow performance being done in software.  That is the case, and comparison here.

MS's console may be capable of this same 30mps at 30fps as well, but as everyone else has stated here- it ain't around now.

-Official Ninja of PGC

 

[mouse_clicker]

I thought you'd come around, Shadow- good to see you here.

[the_zombie_luke]

Awesome. I really liked your article about the GameCube at the G4 forums, Shadowfox. You rock!